Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

Zao is life · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
And Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
That judgment is found in Revelation 11:18, and also at the end of Revelation 20.

That appearing is found in Revelation 11:15-18, at the 7th trumpet which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead.

Therefore, the "millennium" ends near the Second Coming of Christ.

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You left out the ".. and His Kingdom" part in 2 Timothy 4:1:

"I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign--" YLT

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom" KJV

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." (Mat 24:14)

So His Kingdom is still coming - because after His reign, He will put an end to all rule and authority and power and hand the Kingdom back to God the Father:

20 But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
25 for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy made to cease is death.

27 For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him who has put all things under Him.
28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected things to Him, so that God may be all things in all. 1 Cor 15:20-28

Let's face facts now, those who are Christ's at His appearance will be resurrected from the dead at His appearance and His Kingdom . Paul says so. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:5-6

Let's face facts now. Death is only destroyed at the close of the thousand years, when death and hades deliver ALL the dead in them, and those whose names are not found in the lamb's Book of Life are cast into the LOF where:-

1. death and hades have just gone; and where
2. Satan went when his Gog-Magog armies, which had gathered against the camp of the saints, were destroyed by fire coming down from heaven; and where
4. the beast and false prophet, which had martyred those who John saw living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years, had gone - a thousand years before.

My guess is that the rest of the dead who are not resurrected with the saints when the Lord appears, are going to feel themselves judged, knowing that the second death may have power over them.

Douggg · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Where exactly is Revelation 9:1-2 on your chart?

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7th angel sounds, then the war in heaven, Satan cast down, as the falling star of Revelation 9:1-2. Opens the bottomless pit, releashing the tormenting locust creatures and Abaddon.

Zao is life · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
It seems to me, if what you submitted from Ezekiel 38 are referring to events recorded in Revelation 20:7-9, this would prove Amil not Premil. Can't imagine some of what is recorded in Ezekiel 38 meaning a thousand years after the 2nd coming.

I can. I can imagine Ezekiel being a highly symbolic book using symbolism to tell us about real things - the same as the things spoken of in the Revelation. I'm not a Christian Zionist, a Messianic Jew or a Dispen..ist so I don't have Ezekiel's temple existing during the thousand years, but afterwards - because the language in Ezekiel and Revelation regarding the new heavens and earth and temple are the same.

I believe any animal sacrifices mentioned in Ezekiel's temple are symbolic representations:

Zao is life · Oct 26, 2020

Douggg said:
7th angels sounds, then the war in heaven, Satan cast down, as the falling star of Revelation 9:1-2. Opens the bottomless pit, releashing the tormenting locust creatures and Abaddon.

View attachment 287192

The big problem with that part of your diagram is you've got Rev 12 - the casting out of Satan, in the wrong place in time:

"Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out." John 12:31

"And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Rev 12:10-11

If the star fallen from heaven is a symbolic reference to Satan, then the star already fell from heaven when Christ was caught up to God and to His throne.

DavidPT · Oct 26, 2020

Douggg said:
7th angels sounds, then the war in heaven, Satan cast down, as the falling star of Revelation 9:1-2. Opens the bottomless pit, releashing the tormenting locust creatures and Abaddon.

View attachment 287192

I think I have discussed some of this with you in the past.

Obviously, the events recorded in the 5th trumpet precede the events recorded in the 7th trumpet, yet here you are proposing that during the events of the 7th trumpet, the events of the 5th trumpet take place at that time. That is some messed up chronology. I don't see any of this being logical, that you have satan being evicted from heaven during the 7th trumpet, then having him open up the pit during the 5th trumpet.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
As to the feasts, the Spring feasts, Christ fulfilled them in their correct season and correct order. It only stands to reason that He fulfills the remaining Fall feasts in their correct season and correct order as well. And since the Spring feasts never involved animal sacrificing when Christ fulfilled these, then neither will the feast of tabernacles involve animal sacrificing when it is fulfilled, even if it's meaning after the 2nd coming.

Are you saying that you no longer take the following passage literally?

Zech 14:19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 20 On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.

If this was meant to be taken literally, then this would clearly be speaking of people coming to make animal sacrifices and using pots to cook the sacrifices in. How does that line up with you saying that the reference to the feast of tabernacles does not involve animal sacrifices?

The alternative to not taking the above literally, which undeniably would imply that there would be future animal sacrifices, is that it is a symbolic representation of what would begin happening at a future time (as of the time the prophecy was written, but long ago to us) when the feast of tabernacles was taking place.

John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. 40 On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.” 41 Others said, “He is the Messiah.”

This reminds me of:

Zech 14:8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

The above should not be understood literally, but rather should be understood the way Jesus explained it. The living water flowing out from Jerusalem symbolically represents the Holy Spirit being received by the disciples (which happened on the day of Pentecost) and others and them then taking the gospel to Jerusalem and then from there to the rest of the world.

Zao is life · Oct 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Are you saying that you no longer take the following passage literally?

Zech 14:19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 20 On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.

If this was meant to be taken literally, then this would clearly be speaking of people coming to make animal sacrifices and using pots to cook the sacrifices in. How does that line up with you saying that this is not talking about the feast of tabernacles not involving animal sacrifices?

The alternative to not taking the above literally, which undeniably would imply that there would be future animal sacrifices, is that it is a symbolic representation of what would begin happening at a future time (as of the time the prophecy was written, but long ago to us) when the feast of tabernacles was taking place.

John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. 40 On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.” 41 Others said, “He is the Messiah.”

This reminds me of:

Zech 14:8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

The above should not be understood literally, but rather should be understood the way Jesus explained it. The living water flowing out from Jerusalem symbolically represents the Holy Spirit being received by the disciples (which happened on the day of Pentecost) and others and them then taking the gospel to Jerusalem and then from there to the rest of the world.

Imagine how good it's going to be then during the thousand years when Satan is bound in the abyss and totally incapacitated in terms of his ability to deceive the nations - there is going to be absolutely nothing to hinder the spread of the gospel in any way whatsoever.

No wonder the nations will be going up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
So here's a thought that popped into my mind:

What if Amills and Premills are

(a) Both partially wrong; and
(b) Both partially correct.

God created the current heavens and earth in a day.

No, sorry, God created the current heavens and earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day.

The context of 2 Peter 3:5-13 is:
(a) The creation of the current heavens and the earth; and
(b) It's destruction by fire at the return of Christ; and
(C) A new heavens and a new earth to follow.

In this context, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Peter pops in the words:

"But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8).

In view of this, I ask,

How long will it take for the new heavens and new earth to be ushered in after the return of Christ? Will it take:-

(a) A day? Or
(b) Six days? Or
(C) A period of time symbolised as a thousand years? Or
(d) A literal one-thousand year period, as the Greek word χιλιάς chiliás in Revelation 20 denotes; Or
(e) None of the above (if you answer (e), please tell us how long you believe it will take). Or
(f) I don't know. The scripture does not tell us. Or
(g) My answer is entirely different to all the above. Or
(h) You ask too many questions. Just believe what Peter tells you in 2 Peter 3 and forget about anything else you read in the Revelation. Or
(i) You ask too many questions. It's a thousand literal years. Just take the Greek word χιλιάς chiliás in Revelation 20 at face value.

There's a couple things worth pointing out here.

The first is that Peter himself does not compare the length of time of the creation of the new heavens and new earth to the length of time it took to create the heavens and earth as we know it now. So, there's no basis for making that comparison, in my opinion. And you don't see "the day of the Lord" as 6 days, but rather as 1000 years, so I assume you would agree with me here.

The second thing to point out is that 2 Peter 3:8 has nothing at all to do with the length of time of the events that will occur on the day of the Lord. Instead, it has to do with the length of time it takes for Christ to return after His first coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Peter points out here that there will be scoffers in the last days prior to Christ's second coming who are scoffing because a fair amount of time has gone by since His first coming and He still hasn't come back yet. So, they think He surely would have come by then so they conclude that means He never will.

That is the context for 2 Peter 3:8-9.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Again, the scoffers think He will never come back because it's been so long. But, Peter indicates that what may be a long time to some (such as a thousand years) is not a long time to God since even a 24 hour day is no different than a thousand years (or any length of time) to God since He created time and is not confined within the realm of time and space like we are.

Then we see in verse 9 what Peter's point about a day being no different than a thousand years really means. It doesn't refer to the length of the fiery events of the day of the Lord, but rather refers to the fact that the reason why it's taking so long for Christ to return (long from a human perspective, but not from God's perspective) is because God does not want anyone to perish but wants everyone to come to repentance.

God the Father is patiently waiting for the time that only He can determine (no one knows the day or hour except Him - Matt 24:36) when His patience has run out (like it did in Noah's day) and it becomes time to send His Son to gather His own to Himself and take vengeance on His enemies.

And, I see no reason to think it will take a long time for Him to bring down God's wrath when He comes and for Him to regenerate the earth, so my answer to your question is "a".

Spiritual Jew · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Imagine how good it's going to be then during the thousand years when Satan is bound in the abyss and totally incapacitated in terms of his ability to deceive the nations - there is going to be absolutely nothing to hinder the spread of the gospel in any way whatsoever.

No wonder the nations will be going up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Can you explain how people would worship Him for 1000 years and then suddenly a number of them as the sand of the seashore would turn against Him? Do you believe that makes any sense? Please be honest.

What would cause so many to suddenly turn against Him after worshiping Him and witnessing Him in all His glory for 1000 years? Is Satan really that powerful that he can make people suddenly forget all about the thousand years of peaceful bliss with "the King, the LORD of hosts" that they had just experienced?

If you think so, then you are severely overestimating Satan's power. He's very powerful, but not THAT powerful. Only God Himself could be that powerful and I'm sure God would not want to cause His worshipers (again, a number as the sand of the seashore) to change their minds and suddenly oppose Him for no apparent reason.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I agree with everything you say above, except (maybe) Jerusalem. But I'm obviously very interested to know where you see the locality of new Jerusalem during the millennium. Revelation has it descending from God out of heaven after the thousand years.

I also wonder what Jerusalem on earth will be like when it is filled with mortals who are now believers, ruled by resurrected saints who are ruling over all the nations.

The scriptures do not give those details though, I don't think?

Would you say that the "mortals who are now believers" that you mentioned will have inherited the kingdom of God at that point?

Douggg · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
Obviously, the events recorded in the 5th trumpet precede the events recorded in the 7th trumpet, yet here you are proposing that during the events of the 7th trumpet, the events of the 5th trumpet take place at that time. That is some messed up chronology.

The 7th trumpet is not in the group of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8-9, which are sequential - so that is the reason.

Similar to the first six seals were sequential all the way to the end of the 7 years. While the seventh seal in Revelation 8 which is the trumpets beginning in the middle of the 7 years.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Reward for some and judgment for some.

Your assumption is always, "Reward for some and judgment for all the rest". Here is the judgment of those who do not rise at the time of the return of Christ:

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6).

The second death takes place after the close of the millennium, at the GWT when death and hades deliver up ALL the souls in them.

We both agree that the judgment of ALL the dead comes at the close of the millennium - but you fail to prove that the millennium is not literal, by failing to prove Satan was bound and shut in the abyss when Christ was caught up to God and to His throne, and simply ignoring all the verses in scripture that collide with that notion has never, and will never help your argument. You've never answered the issues brought up in the OP of this thread.

This is fascinating that you agree that the judgment of all the dead (both the righteous and wicked) will occur at the same time (right after the thousand years and Satan's little season are completed) as described in Rev 20:11-15. I have never seen a premil say this before.

Anyway, with that in mind, how can you not see Matthew 25:31-46, which occurs when Christ comes in all His glory with His angels, as referring to the same event? I believe the similarities between Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-21:4 are obvious. I'll quote both of them to show the similarities (I'll leave out a few verses from the first passage to save space).

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

I can't see any way, apart from doctrinal bias, that these passages could possibly be speaking of 2 separate judgment events. And the Matthew 25 passage place it at the time when Christ comes with His angels rather than 1000+ years after that. Note the similarities which I color coded in each passage.

Both speak of someone sitting on a throne to judge (Matt 25 specifies that it is Jesus).
Both give the impression that all people, saved and lost, will be there to be judged/rewarded according to what they had done during their lives.
Both refer to an eternal reward for believers and eternal punishment for unbelievers.
Both indicate that the place unbelievers are sent to is the same place as the devil.

Are believers going to inherit eternal life in God's kingdom more than once? Are unbelievers going to be cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels more than once? Are all people going to be judged more than once for what they've done? The answer to these questions should obviously be no.

Since the judgment takes place when Jesus comes with His angels and takes place after the thousand years then we can only conclude that He will come after the figurative thousand years and then proceed to judge all people by what they've done at that time.

claninja · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Thank you. What you say is true (except for one part, which I will come to) - but this is the catch - it can be true of both the period following the Lord's first coming, as well as the period following His second coming (IF the thousand years is literal).

I agree, even if the millennium is symbolic.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
However, there is a part which does not fit in with the period following the Lord's first coming: the part which states that the LORD, when setting His feet on the Mount of Olives, went out and fought against the nations which came against Jerusalem, and what the end result was for them - this did not happen in 70 A.D. Instead, the LORD let the armies of the nations (Roman armies) which came against Jerusalem in 70 A.D, destroy it.

I would argue, and you may agree, that Christ fighting against the nations is alluded to in revelation 19.

Revelation 19:20 But the beast was captured along with the false prophet, who on its behalf had performed signs deceiving those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

zechariah 14:3-4 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south.

However, as stated before, I believe this began at the Cross, for which he disarmed the powers and authorities, and reigns at the right hand until all his enemies are put under his feet, the last being death.

Acts 4:25-27 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant,c our father David: ‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’d 27In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

1 corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death

Christ's ascension to all authority over heaven and earth begins when His feet touch the mount of olives.

Acts 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away

There is no mention of Christ's feet touching the mount of olives at his return in the NT.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I also will re-post here what I posted to BaBerean2: Have you ever considered that instead of the Church, after the apostles' time, inventing a holiday that was unknown to the apostles (Christmas), the Church could have started an annual Feast of Tabernacles in remembrance of when Christ was tabernacled among us, in anticipation of the return of Christ (and in anticipation of the day when God and the Lamb will be the Temple in the new heavens and earth), and in acknowledgement of the fact that the church is the Tabernacle of God in the age in-between?

If the Church could take upon itself to invent an entirely new feast (and other entirely new appointed times - St , This day and St. That day), why can't Jesus re institute the Feast of Tabernacles after He has returned, and His enemies have been thrown alive into the lake of fire?

I agree that the Feasts are all a shadow of what is accomplished in and by Christ, and I believe that this is why we see Zechariah mentioning the Feast of Tabernacles, and it may be symbolic or parabolic, as you say - but it's only the Feast of Tabernacles that is mentioned - absolutely no mention is made in the passage of the nations coming up year to year for any other appointed time. Have you ever considered why?

I've never understood why the Church, which commemorates Christmas (a Church-invented appointed time), and Easter (instead of Passover), would have such a problem with the idea that when Jesus has returned, whether it be in the new heavens and new earth or a literal thousand years - would re-institute this Feast, without the animal sacrifices involved.

Right, but this is not a new festival. Feast of tabernacles was a once a year feast during the Old covenant era, which required Israelite men to come up to Jerusalem.

Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the LORD your God in the place He will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread,d the Feast of Weeks,e and the Feast of Tabernacles.

Just as under the Old covenant Law, participation in Feast of Tabernacles is a requirement according to Zechariah's vision, otherwise the nations will face plagues.

Zechariah 14:18 And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles

This raises 2 issues now that the old covenant is obsolete and we are now in the new covenant:

1.) This requirement to partake in feast of tabernacles or be punished by a plague from God directly contradicts the teachings of Paul, that not partaking in the feasts is acceptable.

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ

2.) This requirement to go up to earthly Jerusalem once a year or be punished by a plague directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus that a time was coming when going to Jerusalem to worship would no longer be required.

John 4:21 “Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The standing or falling of a symbolic interpretation of Zechariah 14, however, remains with the fact that the LORD did not stand on the Mount of Olives and destroy the nations come up against Jerusalem in 70 A.D -

I disagree that the standing or falling of interpreting zechariah 14 whether symbolic or literal relies on zechariah 14:1-5.

IMHO, Interpretations on OT passages, whether symbolic or literal, stand or fall based on the how the NT interprets them.

As shown in post #895, to which you agreed, the NT tells us how to interpret parts of zechariah 14.

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

Douggg said:
7th angel sounds, then the war in heaven, Satan cast down, as the falling star of Revelation 9:1-2. Opens the bottomless pit, releashing the tormenting locust creatures and Abaddon.

You appear to be completely changing the chronology of the Book of Revelation to make your doctrine work. Do you believe the book is not in chronological order?

You used the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15, but ignored the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

.

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
What part of the passage do you see me ignoring? I'm not certain what you are meaning here?

The part about the change in lighting, and the part about living waters, which show the passage to be related to Revelation 21, and 22.

.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 26, 2020

claninja said:
Zechariah 14:18 And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles

This raises 2 issues now that the old covenant is obsolete and we are now in the new covenant:

1.) This requirement to partake in feast of tabernacles or be punished by a plague from God directly contradicts the teachings of Paul, that not partaking in the feasts is acceptable.

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ

2.) This requirement to go up to earthly Jerusalem once a year or be punished by a plague directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus that a time was coming when going to Jerusalem to worship would no longer be required.

John 4:21 “Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

Excellent points. I highly encourage any premils who believe in future animal sacrifices to seriously consider what was said here.

To interpret OT passages to be prophesying about future (from now) animal sacrifices contradicts a great deal of scripture including the passages above as well as Hebrews 8-10 and other passages. You need to re-evaluate your understanding of those OT passages so that you don't contradict NT passages like these.

Douggg · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
You used the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15, but ignored the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

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Revelation 11:18 is on my chart.

2Corinthians5:8-10

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Douggg · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The big problem with that part of your diagram is you've got Rev 12 - the casting out of Satan, in the wrong place in time:

In Revelation 12, after the war in the second heaven and Satan cast down to earth, he has but a short time left - the time/times/half times before being cast into the bottomless pit.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Can you explain how people would worship Him for 1000 years and then suddenly a number of them as the sand of the seashore would turn against Him? Do you believe that makes any sense? Please be honest.

What would cause so many to suddenly turn against Him after worshiping Him and witnessing Him in all His glory for 1000 years? Is Satan really that powerful that he can make people suddenly forget all about the thousand years of peaceful bliss with "the King, the LORD of hosts" that they had just experienced?

Honestly. Are you honest with yourself? You claim that time is now. Why do so many turn away from God and follow Satan now?

You forget that every individual has a choice. Why would the choice between Jesus Christ on earth or Satan on earth make a difference? Most people are going to choose Satan no matter if it is by faith or by sight.

Zao is life · Oct 27, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
There's a couple things worth pointing out here.

The first is that Peter himself does not compare the length of time of the creation of the new heavens and new earth to the length of time it took to create the heavens and earth as we know it now. So, there's no basis for making that comparison, in my opinion. And you don't see "the day of the Lord" as 6 days, but rather as 1000 years, so I assume you would agree with me here.

The second thing to point out is that 2 Peter 3:8 has nothing at all to do with the length of time of the events that will occur on the day of the Lord. Instead, it has to do with the length of time it takes for Christ to return after His first coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Peter points out here that there will be scoffers in the last days prior to Christ's second coming who are scoffing because a fair amount of time has gone by since His first coming and He still hasn't come back yet. So, they think He surely would have come by then so they conclude that means He never will.

That is the context for 2 Peter 3:8-9.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Again, the scoffers think He will never come back because it's been so long. But, Peter indicates that what may be a long time to some (such as a thousand years) is not a long time to God since even a 24 hour day is no different than a thousand years (or any length of time) to God since He created time and is not confined within the realm of time and space like we are.

Then we see in verse 9 what Peter's point about a day being no different than a thousand years really means. It doesn't refer to the length of the fiery events of the day of the Lord, but rather refers to the fact that the reason why it's taking so long for Christ to return (long from a human perspective, but not from God's perspective) is because God does not want anyone to perish but wants everyone to come to repentance.

God the Father is patiently waiting for the time that only He can determine (no one knows the day or hour except Him - Matt 24:36) when His patience has run out (like it did in Noah's day) and it becomes time to send His Son to gather His own to Himself and take vengeance on His enemies.

And, I see no reason to think it will take a long time for Him to bring down God's wrath when He comes and for Him to regenerate the earth, so my answer to your question is "a".

I agree. 2 Peter 3:3-14 taken in its context = no literal millennium to follow.

Revelation 20, taken in its context = a literal millennium to follow. If we take one passage up literally and interpret it only in the light of the passage, then we must do the same with the other passage - and then we come back to the necessity of looking at all scripture, comparing scripture with scripture.

There is scriptural and grammatical support for a literal thousand years. There is scriptural support for no literal thousand years to follow. This is why there will always be Christians falling into one camp or the other when it comes to this topic.

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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