Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

Douggg · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It's a great work of art, but the artist does not understand the timing of these things any more completely than anyone else does - your timing is off when compared with the timing of other Christians who have done just as much research into this as yourself, over the same or even longer periods of time; and their discoveries, which have a stronger Biblical basis regarding timing than your chart, do not tally with yours.

Nice art work, though. If I had a gallery I would keep it hanging up on the wall, as a constant reminder that the Lord is coming.

Here is another set of my charts of the 7 years, the first half and the second half, that has the timing of the trumpets.

You kinda zig-zag down through it.

And here is illustration of the beast coming out of the sea in Revelation 13.

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

Douggg said:
It is on my chart in the middle.

Where exactly is Revelation 9:1-2 on your chart?

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Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Why try to explain a question you made up, which is not based on any specific passage of scripture?

If you cannot answer the question about Revelation 9:1-2, just say so.

Your question is made up as much as mine is.

BABerean2 said:
, if the pit was not locked previously

The pit has never been opened. How could it ever be "not locked"? It was built locked. It has never been unlocked. Thus it has never been locked back after being unlocked. In Revelation 9 it was unlocked for the first time ever. Since you refuse to give proof it was ever unlocked, the only condition since creation is that it has been locked and never opened once, until it is opened in Revelation 9. It was opened so people on earth can see into sheol. It was not opened to let Satan "out". Satan never needed a physical door to go back and forth to his home.

How can this be symbolic? Are humans going to see something spiritual and symbolic, or will there literally be an abyss between where we are and sheol that allows physically observed beings coming and going? You imply that nothing can enter or leave without there being a physical reason for doing so. At the Second Coming, the opening of the 6th seal, what is spiritual will be just as physical to us as what we claim is physical. There will be no more veil over humanity that prevents us from experiencing what we now claim is spiritual and out of observation.

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
We both agree that the judgment of ALL the dead comes at the close of the millennium

And Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
That judgment is found in Revelation 11:18, and also at the end of Revelation 20.

That appearing is found in Revelation 11:15-18, at the 7th trumpet which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead.

Therefore, the "millennium" ends near the Second Coming of Christ.

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Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The first thing we need to do is figure out why you ripped those verses out of their context within the rest of the chapter.

Could it be because you are attempting to make the Premill doctrine work?

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

If we leave those verses within their context, we can see the passage is referring to Revelation 21, and 22.

Some of us used to believe the Premill doctrine, but let go of it when we found it does not agree with the whole of scripture.

Some of us cannot let go of it, even when we are shown it does not agree with the whole of scripture.

.

This argument implies sin and death continue into the NHNE. Why would God create all things new, but keep sin and death? Death is defeated at the GWT. We did not rip those verses out of context. Now you may claim Zechariah is not in chronological order (changing Scripture yet again) to prove your false teaching that Revelation is out of order chronologically. You invent this false claim of chronology when both Zechariah and Revelation have the correct chronological order. God is not the author of confusion, forcing us to make up our own chronology. If what we teach has to change God's Word, it is error.

DavidPT · Oct 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
The pit has never been opened. How could it ever be "not locked"? It was built locked. It has never been unlocked. Thus it has never been locked back after being unlocked. In Revelation 9 it was unlocked for the first time ever. Since you refuse to give proof it was ever unlocked, the only condition since creation is that it has been locked and never opened once, until it is opened in Revelation 9.

Doesn't some of what propose here somewhat defy logic? If things are seen coming out of the pit, and that the pit is locked until they are seen coming out, how did they end up in the pit to begin with unless someone opened it first, then cast them into it, then locked it back up?

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
In Revelation 9 it was unlocked for the first time ever.

Please provide the scripture which shows who locked it, and when.

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

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DavidPT · Oct 26, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS

"Son of man, set your face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him. And say, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. And I will turn you back, and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed most perfectly, a great assembly with buckler and shield, all of them swordsmen; Eze 38:2-4.

"After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you shall come into the land turned back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have always been waste. (But he has been brought out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.) And you shall go up, coming like a storm. You shall be like a cloud to cover the land, you and all your bands, and many peoples with you.

So says the Lord Jehovah: And it shall be in that day that things shall come into your heart, and you shall devise an evil plan." Eze 38:8-10

"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev 20:7-10

"And I will send a fire on Magog, and on the secure inhabitants of the coasts. And they shall know that I am the LORD." Eze 39:6.

1. There are scriptures that SEEM TO disprove the notion of a literal millennium.
2. There are scriptures that SEEM TO disprove the notion of a symbolic millennium.

(a) Those who believe in a literal thousand years tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is literal.

(b) Those who believe the thousand years is symbolic tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is symbolic.

And the choir of all the saints sang in harmony

I could be wrong

Well, not ALL the saints join in with that choir. Some say "I am right".

It seems to me, if what you submitted from Ezekiel 38 are referring to events recorded in Revelation 20:7-9, this would prove Amil not Premil. Can't imagine some of what is recorded in Ezekiel 38 meaning a thousand years after the 2nd coming.

DavidPT · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The first thing we need to do is figure out why you ripped those verses out of their context within the rest of the chapter.

Could it be because you are attempting to make the Premill doctrine work?

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

If we leave those verses within their context, we can see the passage is referring to Revelation 21, and 22.

Some of us used to believe the Premill doctrine, but let go of it when we found it does not agree with the whole of scripture.

Some of us cannot let go of it, even when we are shown it does not agree with the whole of scripture.

.

What we need to keep in mind, the new Jerusalem and the the new earth are not the same thing. The new Jerusalem will be in the new earth but is not meaning the entire earth. The NJ will be geographically situated like the Jerusalem now is. It will obviously be in the ME where the present one now is. It certainly isn't going to be in Texas, or New York, so on and so on. With that in mind, this indicates there is an inside to this city and an outside to this city. Christ will be dwelling inside this city, and Scripture says that where He is so shall the saved be. If anyone is required to come up to the city, they obviously aren't living in the city, they are living outside of the city, therefore they are not the saved, otherwise they would be dwelling where Christ is dwelling.

Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
Doesn't some of what propose here somewhat defy logic? If things are seen coming out of the pit, and that the pit is locked until they are seen coming out, how did they end up in the pit to begin with unless someone opened it first, then cast them into it, then locked it back up?

Because it happens literally in physical form. Unless one can show in the Bible that it happens on a daily basis, and we just cannot "see it". Beings that we claim are spiritual and cannot ever be physical are not bound by physical boundaries. Jesus seemed to walk through walls. The earth’s crust does not prevent beings to come and go from sheol.

It is plausible that when the physical becomes spiritual and the spiritual becomes physical, then Satan will be bound to the laws of the physical. The only way in and out of sheol during the Tribulation will be the abyss. Once it is locked up in Revelation 20:1-3, those in sheol, even Satan, will remain there until the pit is opened again.

Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Please provide the scripture which shows who locked it, and when.

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

So now sheol is on earth? If Satan's abode is on the earth’s surface where we live, what is sheol?

You rejected my question, so I will return the favor. Since the Bible is silent, the default position, is that the abyss was created locked, as there would be no need until the Second Coming for the abyss to be used.

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
What we need to keep in mind, the new Jerusalem and the the new earth are not the same thing. The new Jerusalem will be in the new earth but is not meaning the entire earth. The NJ will be geographically situated like the Jerusalem now is. It will obviously be in the ME where the present one now is. It certainly isn't going to be in Texas, or New York, so on and so on. With that in mind, this indicates there is an inside to this city and an outside to this city. Christ will be dwelling inside this city, and Scripture says that where He is so shall the saved be. If anyone is required to come up to the city, they obviously aren't living in the city, they are living outside of the city, therefore they are not the saved, otherwise they would be dwelling where Christ is dwelling.

Is your personal interpretation of Zechariah 14 the only thing you have left to base the Premill doctrine on?

You are ignoring the words of Christ, and Paul, and Peter, and John, in this effort to make the Premill doctrine work, and are using your personal interpretation of Zechariah 14 instead.

This type of circular reasoning is why many of us had to let it go.

.

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
So now sheol is on earth? If Satan's abode is on the earth’s surface where we live, what is sheol?

You rejected my question, so I will return the favor. Since the Bible is silent, the default position, is that the abyss was created locked, as there would be no need until the Second Coming for the abyss to be used.

Why then does the beast "ascend" out of the pit in the verse below?

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Where was the beast before it "ascended"?

Is this a difficult question?

.

Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
What we need to keep in mind, the new Jerusalem and the the new earth are not the same thing. The new Jerusalem will be in the new earth but is not meaning the entire earth. The NJ will be geographically situated like the Jerusalem now is. It will obviously be in the ME where the present one now is. It certainly isn't going to be in Texas, or New York, so on and so on. With that in mind, this indicates there is an inside to this city and an outside to this city. Christ will be dwelling inside this city, and Scripture says that where He is so shall the saved be. If anyone is required to come up to the city, they obviously aren't living in the city, they are living outside of the city, therefore they are not the saved, otherwise they would be dwelling where Christ is dwelling.

It has a 12,000 mile square footprint. It is going to cover the Mediterranean (no more Sea), most of Europe and Northern Africa.

"Saved" is not a phenomenon in the NHNE. There will be glorified sons of God, the church, in the New Jerusalem, and humans without sin living forever on earth without being able to die.

That is also how the last 1000 years will work as well. The church is in Paradise. Humans free of sin, but not death living on earth. Some will rebel and die, as cursed by God. Death is not defeated until the GWT. Rebellion is not because of a sin nature. Rebellion is still being self righteous and without sin, but thinking one can be even more righteous than God. That is rebellion.

DavidPT · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Is your personal interpretation of Zechariah 14 the only thing you have left to base the Premill doctrine on?

You are ignoring the words of Christ, and Paul, and Peter, and John, in this effort to make the Premill doctrine work, and are using your personal interpretation of Zechariah 14 instead.

This type of circular reasoning is why many of us had to let it go.

.

I basically take Zechariah 14:8-11(maybe verse 6 and 7 as well?) to be meaning post the 2nd coming, and that that is referring to the NHNE, and that Zechariah 14:16-19 fits during this time period. And since the NHNE involves eternity, does Zechariah 14:16-19 involve all of eternity, or does it only involve a tiny fraction of it, such as a thousand years of it?

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
I basically take Zechariah 14:8-11(maybe verse 6 and 7 as well?) to be meaning post the 2nd coming, and that that is referring to the NHNE, and that Zechariah 14:16-19 fits during this time period. And since the NHNE involves eternity, does Zechariah 14:16-19 involve all of eternity, or does it only involve a tiny fraction of it, such as a thousand years of it?

Are you saying you try to ignore the part of the passage that does not make your doctrine work?

This is the same way some have tried to say people are dying in Isaiah 65:20, by ignoring the context of Isaiah 65:17-25 to be in the New Heavens and New Earth.

.

DavidPT · Oct 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
Death is not defeated until the GWT. Rebellion is not because of a sin nature.

It sounds like we are at least on the same page about this part.

Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
This type of circular reasoning is why many of us had to let it go.

So come up with your own circular reasoning is the answer? Recap is circular, no? Having to move Scripture into different order to make your circle work, is the proper response to Revelation 20? Just because your circle seems more stable than God's Word, itself, means nothing actually.

DavidPT · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying you try to ignore the part of the passage that does not make your doctrine work?

What part of the passage do you see me ignoring? I'm not certain what you are meaning here?

Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Why then does the beast "ascend" out of the pit in the verse below?

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Where was the beast before it "ascended"?

Is this a difficult question?

.

No, neither does ascending out of sheol mean there has to be a physical abyss to allow it to happen. That ascendeth. Satan ascends between sheol, earth, and God's throne hourly each day. Nothing has ever stopped this phenomenon since Adam was placed in the Garden, and angels were placed in sheol. There is no Scripture without added human interpretation to declare otherwise. Just as lightning goes across the face of the sky, Satan comes and goes between these 3 created places; nonstop.

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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