want to talk about OSAS?

RickReads said:

Whats your answer again? What world I do my research in or Arminimania? If you think Arminimania supports anything but the election you misunderstand it.

Click to expand...

Armenians are well known for believing God allows freewill as regards salvation, because Calvinists are always calling those who believe in freewill, Arminians.

As regards multiple posts from me, if you’re talking about posting the same thing to the same person, that’s because I’m using an iPad, and time after time when I post, the browser crashes and reloads, and my post has disappeared.

Sometimes it reappears, most of the time it doesn’t - and a few times I’ve posted a response more than once that disappeared, and later all the posts show up.

I’ve tried three browsers, they all give me a hard time.

Maybe the forum is designed only for windows, or something.

1an said:

Did you not read this? I have highlighted the relevant part.

The New Testament words "chosen, choose, and election" are the same. The Old Testament word is simply "chosen." From the above Scripture many have felt that God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost. Again I want to point out that predestination and election (choosing) have nothing to do with the lost, but are for the saved.

From the following Scriptures we learn what the choosing, or election, of God is about:'' For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of him that calleth); It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Rom. 9:9-13).

At once we point out that election, or choosing, has to do with service; THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. It does not say, "The younger shall be saved, and the elder shall be lost." No, but simply, "the elder shall SERVE the younger." Thus choosing, or election, has to do with service. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" wasn't said of these two men before they were born, but hundreds of years after they died.

God hated the descendants of Esau because of their unbelief, and loved the descendants of Jacob because of their faith.

In the 15th chapter of John's Gospel, the Lord Jesus said that He had chosen (elected) them disciples. For salvation? No, for service. Even Judas was chosen! For damnation? No, but like Pharoh, who was a fit vessel unto wrath - after being given many chances to believe, refused, and thus was used for God's purpose.

The prophet Isaiah says that Israel is God's chosen people (Isaiah 41:8). Does this mean that all Jews are saved? No. It simply means that God has chosen Israel for a service. And we know what that service was: to give us the Word of God and to give us the Lord Jesus Christ!

The same prophet, Isaiah, says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Chosen Servant of God (Isaiah 42:1). Does this mean that God chose the Lord Jesus to be saved? Of course not! For He is the SAVIOUR! But God did choose His Son for a service - and that service was to be the Lamb of God who would die for the sins of the world. And He was the obedient Servant, being obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross!

Now back to the original text, as found in Ephesians 1:4. What has God elected or chosen us for? He has chosen us for service - "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."

Thus, we conclude that God does not predestinate or elect men to be saved or lost, but that salvation is on the basis of "WHOSOEVER WILL!"- "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).

by Dr. Mark G. Cambron,
Seaside Mission,
North Miami Beach, Florida

Click to expand...

I agree completely.

God mostly elects groups and nations, meaning election is corporate and not individual.

God elected, or chose, that the body of Christ shall be confirmed to the image of His son, but does not choose which individuals become part of His body.

Surprisingly, Romans 9, the big gun proof text of Calvinists for election and predestination in the part about Esau and Jacob, and the potter and the clay, is about nations, not individuals.

As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


And Israel, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not any one person.


The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation, units about Israel and other nations.

1an said:

Did you not read this? I have highlighted the relevant part.

The New Testament words "chosen, choose, and election" are the same. The Old Testament word is simply "chosen." From the above Scripture many have felt that God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost. Again I want to point out that predestination and election (choosing) have nothing to do with the lost, but are for the saved.

From the following Scriptures we learn what the choosing, or election, of God is about:'' For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of him that calleth); It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Rom. 9:9-13).

At once we point out that election, or choosing, has to do with service; THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. It does not say, "The younger shall be saved, and the elder shall be lost." No, but simply, "the elder shall SERVE the younger." Thus choosing, or election, has to do with service. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" wasn't said of these two men before they were born, but hundreds of years after they died.

God hated the descendants of Esau because of their unbelief, and loved the descendants of Jacob because of their faith.

In the 15th chapter of John's Gospel, the Lord Jesus said that He had chosen (elected) them disciples. For salvation? No, for service. Even Judas was chosen! For damnation? No, but like Pharoh, who was a fit vessel unto wrath - after being given many chances to believe, refused, and thus was used for God's purpose.

The prophet Isaiah says that Israel is God's chosen people (Isaiah 41:8). Does this mean that all Jews are saved? No. It simply means that God has chosen Israel for a service. And we know what that service was: to give us the Word of God and to give us the Lord Jesus Christ!

The same prophet, Isaiah, says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Chosen Servant of God (Isaiah 42:1). Does this mean that God chose the Lord Jesus to be saved? Of course not! For He is the SAVIOUR! But God did choose His Son for a service - and that service was to be the Lamb of God who would die for the sins of the world. And He was the obedient Servant, being obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross!

Now back to the original text, as found in Ephesians 1:4. What has God elected or chosen us for? He has chosen us for service - "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."

Thus, we conclude that God does not predestinate or elect men to be saved or lost, but that salvation is on the basis of "WHOSOEVER WILL!"- "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).

by Dr. Mark G. Cambron,
Seaside Mission,
North Miami Beach, Florida

Click to expand...

I agree completely.

God mostly elects groups and nations, meaning election is corporate and not individual.

God elected, or chose, that the body of Christ shall be confirmed to the image of His son, but does not choose which individuals become part of His body.

Surprisingly, Romans 9, the big gun proof text of Calvinists for election and predestination in the part about Esau and Jacob, and the potter and the clay, is about nations, not individuals.

As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


And Israel, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not any one person.


The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.

1an said:

Did you not read this? I have highlighted the relevant part.

The New Testament words "chosen, choose, and election" are the same. The Old Testament word is simply "chosen." From the above Scripture many have felt that God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost. Again I want to point out that predestination and election (choosing) have nothing to do with the lost, but are for the saved.

From the following Scriptures we learn what the choosing, or election, of God is about:'' For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of him that calleth); It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Rom. 9:9-13).

At once we point out that election, or choosing, has to do with service; THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. It does not say, "The younger shall be saved, and the elder shall be lost." No, but simply, "the elder shall SERVE the younger." Thus choosing, or election, has to do with service. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" wasn't said of these two men before they were born, but hundreds of years after they died.

God hated the descendants of Esau because of their unbelief, and loved the descendants of Jacob because of their faith.

In the 15th chapter of John's Gospel, the Lord Jesus said that He had chosen (elected) them disciples. For salvation? No, for service. Even Judas was chosen! For damnation? No, but like Pharoh, who was a fit vessel unto wrath - after being given many chances to believe, refused, and thus was used for God's purpose.

The prophet Isaiah says that Israel is God's chosen people (Isaiah 41:8). Does this mean that all Jews are saved? No. It simply means that God has chosen Israel for a service. And we know what that service was: to give us the Word of God and to give us the Lord Jesus Christ!

The same prophet, Isaiah, says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Chosen Servant of God (Isaiah 42:1). Does this mean that God chose the Lord Jesus to be saved? Of course not! For He is the SAVIOUR! But God did choose His Son for a service - and that service was to be the Lamb of God who would die for the sins of the world. And He was the obedient Servant, being obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross!

Now back to the original text, as found in Ephesians 1:4. What has God elected or chosen us for? He has chosen us for service - "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."

Thus, we conclude that God does not predestinate or elect men to be saved or lost, but that salvation is on the basis of "WHOSOEVER WILL!"- "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).

by Dr. Mark G. Cambron,
Seaside Mission,
North Miami Beach, Florida

Click to expand...

Aussie Pete said:

Again the confusion arises because people are unaware of the difference between the initial salvation of being born again and the on-going salvation of the soul. And no, it is not progressive sanctification. Sorry, Baptists, you are wrong.

Click to expand...

Nice theory, it takes a partial truth and builds a theology that claims once the spirit is regenerated, that continually sinning only affects the soul, and not the spirit.

This ignores Paul’s many warnings that the consequences of a believer choosing to sow to the flesh, instead of sowing to the spirit, is reaping spiritual death, and keeps them out of heaven.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

Aussie Pete said:

Again the confusion arises because people are unaware of the difference between the initial salvation of being born again and the on-going salvation of the soul. And no, it is not progressive sanctification. Sorry, Baptists, you are wrong.

Click to expand...

Nice theory, it takes a partial truth and builds a theology that claims once the spirit is regenerated, that continually sinning only affects the soul, and not the spirit.

This ignores Paul’s many warnings that the consequences of a believer choosing to sow to the flesh, instead of sowing to the spirit, is reaping spiritual death, and keeps them out of heaven.

RickReads said:

Rediculous, 12 verses is not an "isolation". No one in any of your examples was predestined for salvation.

Click to expand...

From his number 3, was Paul predestined for salvation?

Because Paul wrote:

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The word castaway, is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which means:

G96 (Strong)

ἀδόκιμος

adokimos

ad-ok'-ee-mos

From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Total KJV occurrences: 8

Paul said that he has to subjugate his body, his flesh (the flesh always wants to sin), lest after preaching salvation to others, he ends up a reprobate.

Reprobate means to be rejected by God as one failing the test.

Paul refutes OSAS many times in scripture, so does Jesus in Luke 8.

chad kincham said:

This ignores Paul’s many warnings that the consequences of a believer choosing to sow to the flesh, instead of sowing to the spirit, is reaping spiritual death, and keeps them out of heaven.

Click to expand...

A little something to compliment what you say there.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

Rev. 22:12-16 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

chad kincham said:

Nice theory, it takes a partial truth and builds a theology that claims once the spirit is regenerated, that continually sinning only affects the soul, and not the spirit.

This ignores Paul’s many warnings that the consequences of a believer choosing to sow to the flesh, instead of sowing to the spirit, is reaping spiritual death, and keeps them out of heaven.

Click to expand...

But if you use Romans 5:12-19 as a guide, why can't someone born of Adam, without Christ, also choose to sow good deeds and reap spiritual life, and keep himself out of hell?

Guojing said:

But if you use Romans 5:12-19 as a guide, why can't someone born of Adam, without Christ, also choose to sow good deeds and reap spiritual life, and keep himself out of hell?

Click to expand...

Because the whole point of Paul’s clear teaching is, the believer who’s been saved, must sow to the Holy Spirit, and not sow to the flesh, and must walk in the light as He is in the light.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

chad kincham said:

Because the whole point of Paul’s clear teaching is, the believer who’s been saved, must sow to the Holy Spirit, and not sow to the flesh, and must walk in the light as He is in the light.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to livechad. in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Click to expand...

That is excellent chad. Do you mind if I keep a copy for future reference?
.

chad kincham said:

Nice theory, it takes a partial truth and builds a theology that claims once the spirit is regenerated, that continually sinning only affects the soul, and not the spirit.

This ignores Paul’s many warnings that the consequences of a believer choosing to sow to the flesh, instead of sowing to the spirit, is reaping spiritual death, and keeps them out of heaven.


From his number 3, was Paul predestined for salvation?

Because Paul wrote:

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The word castaway, is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which means:

G96 (Strong)

ἀδόκιμος

adokimos

ad-ok'-ee-mos

From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Total KJV occurrences: 8

Paul said that he has to subjugate his body, his flesh (the flesh always wants to sin), lest after preaching salvation to others, he ends up a reprobate.

Reprobate means to be rejected by God as one failing the test.

Paul refutes OSAS many times in scripture, so does Jesus in Luke 8.

Click to expand...

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

chad kincham said:

Armenians are well known for believing God allows freewill as regards salvation, because Calvinists are always calling those who believe in freewill, Arminians.

As regards multiple posts from me, if you’re talking about posting the same thing to the same person, that’s because I’m using an iPad, and time after time when I post, the browser crashes and reloads, and my post has disappeared.

Sometimes it reappears, most of the time it doesn’t - and a few times I’ve posted a response more than once that disappeared, and later all the posts show up.

I’ve tried three browsers, they all give me a hard time.

Maybe the forum is designed only for windows, or something.

Click to expand...

Oh I see, you`re another one of those tell me what I believe then refute me based on your claim guys.

I never said I was a Calvin, in fact I have indicated some disdain for Calvin extremists. You can believe in freewill and also believe in a one time salvation that can be trusted in. I believe it and it`s a concept that a Armeniac can also agree to.

My beliefs are old. They come from the 1st century AD. I only use these terms that were invented later for discussion purposes. Lot of work doing that really because I often have to go look them up. I never had much interest in religeous ideas that I couldn`t read about in the Bible.

chad kincham said:

Because the whole point of Paul’s clear teaching is, the believer who’s been saved, must sow to the Holy Spirit, and not sow to the flesh, and must walk in the light as He is in the light.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Click to expand...

So Adam's disobedience in the garden meant we were permanently condemned to hell, no matter what good deeds we sow, but Jesus's obedience on the cross only meant conditional salvation, which we could lose if we sow enough evil deeds?

Is that really what Scripture made it clear for us?

chad kincham said:

Nice theory, it takes a partial truth and builds a theology that claims once the spirit is regenerated, that continually sinning only affects the soul, and not the spirit.

This ignores Paul’s many warnings that the consequences of a believer choosing to sow to the flesh, instead of sowing to the spirit, is reaping spiritual death, and keeps them out of heaven.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

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flesh sowers are not elect, we are not supposed to live in fear and insecurity for our salvation.
You are trying to say that Trusting Jesus as I do means I want to sin. Why do salvation losers always make that accusation?

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Guojing said:

So Adam's disobedience in the garden meant we were permanently condemned to hell, no matter what good deeds we sow, but Jesus's obedience on the cross only meant conditional salvation, which we could lose if we sow enough evil deeds?

Is that really what Scripture made it clear for us?

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Jude

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

chad kincham said:

Because the whole point of Paul’s clear teaching is, the believer who’s been saved, must sow to the Holy Spirit, and not sow to the flesh, and must walk in the light as He is in the light.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

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So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that the believer is sowing to the flesh and not to the Holy Spirit, so now he won't be saved? You have turned this into "type 2 works salvation." Walking according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

In regards to walking in the light. 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to - "children of the devil."

chad kincham said:

Armenians are well known for believing God allows freewill as regards salvation, because Calvinists are always calling those who believe in freewill, Arminians.

As regards multiple posts from me, if you’re talking about posting the same thing to the same person, that’s because I’m using an iPad, and time after time when I post, the browser crashes and reloads, and my post has disappeared.

Sometimes it reappears, most of the time it doesn’t - and a few times I’ve posted a response more than once that disappeared, and later all the posts show up.

I’ve tried three browsers, they all give me a hard time.

Maybe the forum is designed only for windows, or something.

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Real Arminians believe just the same as Calvinists regarding free will or lack thereof. See below

Arminius writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7
Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library