The nonsense of "faith produces works"

Guojing said:

Israel was promised physical blessings NOW, but they are not to be just contented with those physical blessings.

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Thanks, but not really an answer to my questions.

GDL said:

Thanks, but not really an answer to my questions.

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I am saying the passage you quoted from John 6 had a context, feeding the 5000 and an audience, Israelites.

You ignored both when you used that passage to preach a works based salvation, for the Body of Christ.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right.

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Nobody ever said that. Your argument fails immediately on the straw man fallacy.

Guojing said:

I am saying the passage you quoted from John 6 had a context, feeding the 5000 and an audience, Israelites.

You ignored both when you used that passage to preach a works based salvation, for the Body of Christ.

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I fully understand what you said and, as I said before, how you're interpreting J6 in some form of dispensationalism, thereby leaving no applicability of J6 to us. I guess we should just read past it now since it's meaningless to us today - likely the same for much, if not most of, GJohn - come to think of it, for much to most of the Gospels. Too bad, because J6 contains such great lessons on how our Father & our Lord work, and on things re: abiding for eternal life, and................

I also fully understand that you're dodging my questions.

Additionally, you have little ability to prove what you're charging me of re: works-salvation, especially when you dodge my questions. Your chosen tactics of dodging & accusing are a pointless exercise & a waste of time.

GDL said:

I fully understand what you said and, as I said before, how you're interpreting J6 in some form of dispensationalism, thereby leaving no applicability of J6 to us. I guess we should just read past it now since it's meaningless to us today - likely the same for much, if not most of, GJohn - come to think of it, for much to most of the Gospels. Too bad, because J6 contains such great lessons on how our Father & our Lord work, and on things re: abiding for eternal life, and................

I also fully understand that you're dodging my questions.

Additionally, you have little ability to prove what you're charging me of re: works-salvation, especially when you dodge my questions. Your chosen tactics of dodging & accusing are a pointless exercise & a waste of time.

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Yes J6 is important to us, it teaches us what signs and wonders were for under the gospel of the kingdom.

It detailed for us gentiles the history of Israel and how because they have rejected Christ despite the signs and wonders, salvation has now come to us (Romans 11:11)

Israel had to wait to inherit eternal life even if they did accept Jesus as their promised Messiah and Son of God (John 20:31).

But for us, we have eternal life the moment we believe in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

People who never heard of our God or perhaps of Christianity can still be doing the will of God in their everyday lives by loving all as self, simply because it is part of our inherent nature as is self interest. A matter of personal choice based upon their concept of the world. Some people just don't like selfish and oppressive people or societies. One does not need to join a religion to serve the will of God. They just need to believe that give is better than take. That is why salvation was for all mankind and those who follow His will over the self serving will of man

timothyu said:

One does not need to join a religion to serve the will of God. They just need to believe that give is better than take. That is why salvation was for all mankind and those who follow His will over the self serving will of man

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A couple questions:

- Is believing that Jesus is the resurrected Christ who died for the sins of mankind & now sits at the right hand of God the Father having all authority in Heaven & on earth, so I am in submission to His absolute authority a religion that we do not need to join?

- Can you reference some Scripture to support what you've stated?

GDL said:

- Is believing that Jesus is the resurrected Christ who died for the sins of mankind & now sits at the right hand of God the Father having all authority in Heaven & on earth, so I am in submission to His absolute authority a religion that we do not need to join?

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He died in order to open a door to a new world where the Kingdom of God, His Governance, His will is followed by mankind, rather than mankind following our own will here. Where is the submission if one does not follow the commandments of Jesus which puts the will of the Father ahead of man's, thus commanding us to love all as self. Adam and Eve were the first to follow self interest rather than the will of the Father, and the whole of the Bible is one continuous story of Him saying do my will while man turns around and pursues their own. Jesus was the first to completely follow the will of the Father and not his own, and that was no easy path considering He could have bailed at any time.

How has man measured up in their submission to His will, His absolute authourity? What do we say about a religion that has sidetracked itself from the whole thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven thing. It serves a purpose yes, but ignores the fact the connection between God and man needs no middleman other than Jesus. Those who do His will are His church and they need not be part of the religion.

timothyu said:

Some people just don't like selfish and oppressive people or societies. One does not need to join a religion to serve the will of God. They just need to believe that give is better than take.

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This is true IF we posit as true the idea that serving God 'sorta' or partially or occasionally is good enough for Him.

That's a dubious proposition and nearly impossible to defend.

timothyu said:

Those who do His will are His church and they need not be part of the religion.

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I like the first clause of your statement. As for the second clause, I'm not sure I'm following you correctly:

While sitting under a pastor's teaching for thousands of hours of instruction, I was taught that "religion" was some kind of a dirty word or something & associated with Satanic deceit. So, when I would read this word in English translations as in James 1, surely this translation could not be correct, because "pure & undefiled religion" is spoken of in a good sense. I checked several Greek lexicons & "religion" per such tools is an appropriate translation of the Greek word used.

So, do you, and whoever else may read this & chime in, not like the word "religion" for some reason?

BibleBeliever1611 said:

Nobody except 99% of so called Christians

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It's a matter of seeing the middle ground here.

Jesus saves us, not our works... in this no works are necessary to our being saved, outside of placing your faith in Christ's work.

This doesn't mean we don't work though... sanctification is a lifelong process where we become more and more like Him. Not because we are robots but because we love Him - because He first loved us - and it is directly connected to our faith in Christ. True faith is a living and active faith..

GDL said:

because "pure & undefiled religion" is spoken of in a good sense

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Pure and undefiled religion follows the will of God. Religions of man follow the will of man often in the name of God. The proof is in the scriptures, not the doctrines and theology (philosophies) of man. Remember the rock that Jesus said the Father would build His church upon, that truth comes from the Father and not from the minds of man.

timothyu said:

Pure and undefiled religion follows the will of God. Religions of man follow the will of man often in the name of God. The proof is in the scriptures, not the doctrines and theology (philosophies) of man. Remember the rock that Jesus said the Father would build His church upon, that truth comes from the Father and not from the minds of man.

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So: one religion follows God's will - other religions follow man's will.

So: The Christian Faith is a religion or The Religion - and other [pseudo?] religions also exist.

Does this correctly represent your thinking?

GDL said:

Does this correctly represent your thinking?

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What I said does yes. Your interpretation is your own and often what occurs in an instutionalized religion.

timothyu said:

What I said does yes. Your interpretation is your own and often what occurs in an instutionalized religion

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Simple question. Yes or no would have been clear & easy. Best I can tell you're pointing me back to what you said for your answer. So with this in mind:

Actually, rather than an "institutionailzed religion," my interpretation is a reading of what the Word says translating from the original language using several available lexical tools and letting His Word speak for itself apart from what some favored preacher tells me it says or doesn't say.

You leave yourself unclear as to whether or not you agree with the translation of the Text many translators agree with.

You apparently don't like the word "religion" or "religious." Your choice, but likely due to some preaching you've heard & typically with some catchy phrase like, "Christianity is a relationship, not a religion!" Catchy, but the Word of God says there is a clean & undefiled religion in the presence of God the Father, and it is thus not of the world - mankind - "instutionalized religion" if you prefer.

Since you dislike what comes from man (I agree with you BTW), you ought to trust His Word and what He says.

BTW, non-denom doesn't mean you're not part of some group, small to not so small, with a certain theological system of interpretation. Nor does it mean you've got it all figured out & are correct in suggesting I belong to some institution and get my interpretations from man. Yes, I do rely on translational tools to some degree, and on our Text that God had men write, which is more than it seems you do, and in many cases I do extensive work in Scripture to let God define words He uses. I don't see this necessary at this point with the word you don't like. I think it's pretty clear your dislike stems from man.

GDL said:

but the Word of God says there is a clean & undefiled religion in the presence of God the Father, and it is thus not of the world - mankind - "instutionalized religion" if you prefer.

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That's what I said.

GDL said:

I think it's pretty clear your dislike stems from man.

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My dislike is the ways of man

timothyu said:

That's what I said.

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OK.

timothyu said:

My dislike is the ways of man

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Completely agree.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

The only problem with that is that God hates middle grounds. God only created heaven and hell. He didn't create a place called "middle ground" that would exist in between of heaven and hell. There's no middle ground between good and bad either, or between righteousness and wickedness. Look what God says about people who are lukewarm (which is a synonym for middle ground).

"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." - Rev 3:16

Look how there's no middle ground between being a believer and non-believer:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18

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You should ask yourself - who is lukewarm?

Those who have a living and active faith? (Those who were saved to good works and are daily being conformed to the image of Christ?)

Or those with a dead faith? (Those who don't do anything at all but say I believe, yet aren't being conformed to His image)