Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

DavidPT · Oct 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Where in the text does it say they are mortals?

Have we not already established a link between Zechariah chapter 14, and Revelation 21, and Revelation 22?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet in Revelation 21, and 22?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?
If we accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46, then there can be no mortals alive on the planet for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ.

Either Jesus was wrong in Matthew 25, or your interpretation of Zechariah 14 is wrong.
Is there something I am missing here?

.

There are a number of things you are missing here.

A)----1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

B)---Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

C)---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.(Zechariah 14:5)

D)---Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

E)---Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

A) leads to B) and is also meaning C).

D) happens to everyone recorded in B), verse 21.

E) does not include anyone recorded in B), verse 21, otherwise D) would have happened to them as well.

E) also does not include anyone recorded in A), because those in A) put on immortality at the time, and that God is not going to be threatening saved immortals with punishment if they refuse to come up. They don't need to come up to begin with, they will already be there living inside of the city rather than outside of the city. Where they, meaning those in E), will be required to come up to will be the new Jerusalem. Premils will likely disagree with me about that part, but I couldn't less if they do, since to me it makes far better sense for nations to be coming up to new Jerusalem rather than Jerusalem as we now know it, the literal city in the ME where it is mainly occupied by unbelieving Jews.

The timing of E) is obviously prior to the great white throne judgment. If we instead place it after the great white throne judgment, we have no choice but to conclude E) is meaning it will be like that throughout all eternity, since there would not be a period of time preventing this from happening throughout all eternity.

In another post you indicated you don't have everything all figured out. None of us do. So why give the impression you have everything all figured out by ignoring what to logically do with E) above?

Timtofly · Oct 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, is found in Revelation 11:15-18.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

.

I agree, but you can have a resurrection 1990 years prior to the award ceremony in Paradise. Are you saying the rewards can only be handed out the second each believer enters Paradise? Would not all have to be present at one time? The verse does not say the prophets are resurrected. It says they get their reward. They were resurrected 1990 years ago.

In the case of those dead in their sins, you seem to place the resurrection even before they have died. Being spiritually dead is not the same thing as being physically dead. Those not born again are spiritually dead. Those, spiritually dead, but alive on earth, have to be killed before resurrection, no?

Timtofly · Oct 25, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Where is he?

I say he is in Paradise and we are not living in the Millennium yet. Amil claim he was resurrected 1990 years ago and we are living in the Millennium. Only Amil can prove he is alive, because they teach he was beheaded and resurrected when Jesus died on the Cross. They must know where he is to prove their teachings are correct.

Zao is life · Oct 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Where in the text does it say they are mortals?

Have we not already established a link between Zechariah chapter 14, and Revelation 21, and Revelation 22?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet in Revelation 21, and 22?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?
If we accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46, then there can be no mortals alive on the planet for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ.

Either Jesus was wrong in Matthew 25, or your interpretation of Zechariah 14 is wrong.
Is there something I am missing here?

.

(a) Those who believe in a literal thousand years tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is literal.
(b) Those who believe the thousand years is symbolic tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is symbolic.

We have not established that Zechariah is prophesying only of the new heavens and earth to follow the destruction of the armies gathered against Jerusalem.

"I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them" Dan 7:21

"And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." Rev 13:7

"until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." Dan 7:22

"And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father." Rev 2:26-27

"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mat 19:28

"I watched until the thrones were thrown up, and the Ancient of Days sat, whose robe was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like flames of fire, and His wheels like burning fire. A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke.
I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame." Dan 7:9-11

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone." Rev 19:20

"And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes shall rot in their sockets. And their tongue shall rot in their mouth." Zech 14:12

"And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time." Dan 7:12

I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And dominion and glory was given Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Dan 7:12-14

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." Rev 11:15

"And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself. And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations.
And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron." Rev 19:11-15

"And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father." Rev 2:26-27

"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mat 19:28

"And it shall be, everyone who is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be, whoever will not come up from all the families of the earth to Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, even on them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt does not go up, and nor come in, they shall have no rain, but the plague with which the LORD shall strike the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be Egypt's offense, and the offense of all the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles." Zech 14:16-19

"I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." Dan 7:22

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6).

"Son of man, set your face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him. And say, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. And I will turn you back, and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed most perfectly, a great assembly with buckler and shield, all of them swordsmen; Eze 38:2-4.

"After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you shall come into the land turned back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have always been waste. (But he has been brought out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.) And you shall go up, coming like a storm. You shall be like a cloud to cover the land, you and all your bands, and many peoples with you.

So says the Lord Jehovah: And it shall be in that day that things shall come into your heart, and you shall devise an evil plan." Eze 38:8-10

"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev 20:7-10

"And I will send a fire on Magog, and on the secure inhabitants of the coasts. And they shall know that I am the LORD." Eze 39:6.

"And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time." Dan 7:12

"The rest of the beasts" can only be referring to the kingdoms of the rest of the nations that were not destroyed with the beast that made war against the saints.

There are scriptures that disprove the notion of a literal millennium.
There are scriptures that disprove the notion of a symbolic millennium.

(a) Those who believe in a literal thousand years tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is literal.
(b) Those who believe the thousand years is symbolic tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is symbolic.

One day all the saints will sing in a great harmonious choir where the words of the chorus are:

I could be wrong.

Zao is life · Oct 25, 2020

DavidPT said:
There are a number of things you are missing here.

A)----1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

B)---Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

C)---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.(Zechariah 14:5)

D)---Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

E)---Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

A) leads to B) and is also meaning C).

D) happens to everyone recorded in B), verse 21.

E) does not include anyone recorded in B), verse 21, otherwise D) would have happened to them as well.

E) also does not include anyone recorded in A), because those in A) put on immortality at the time, and that God is not going to be threatening saved immortals with punishment if they refuse to come up. They don't need to come up to begin with, they will already be there living inside of the city rather than outside of the city. Where they, meaning those in E), will be required to come up to will be the new Jerusalem. Premils will likely disagree with me about that part, but I couldn't less if they do, since to me it makes far better sense for nations to be coming up to new Jerusalem rather than Jerusalem as we now know it, the literal city in the ME where it is mainly occupied by unbelieving Jews.

The timing of E) is obviously prior to the great white throne judgment. If we instead place it after the great white throne judgment, we have no choice but to conclude E) is meaning it will be like that throughout all eternity, since there would not be a period of time preventing this from happening throughout all eternity.

In another post you indicated you don't have everything all figured out. None of us do. So why give the impression you have everything all figured out by ignoring what to logically do with E) above?

I agree with everything you say above, except (maybe) Jerusalem. But I'm obviously very interested to know where you see the locality of new Jerusalem during the millennium. Revelation has it descending from God out of heaven after the thousand years.

I also wonder what Jerusalem on earth will be like when it is filled with mortals who are now believers, ruled by resurrected saints who are ruling over all the nations.

The scriptures do not give those details though, I don't think?

BABerean2 · Oct 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
There are scriptures that disprove the notion of a literal millennium.
There are scriptures that disprove the notion of a symbolic millennium.

(a) Those who believe in a literal thousand years tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is literal.
(b) Those who believe the thousand years is symbolic tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is symbolic.

One day all the saints will sing in a great harmonious choir where the words of the chorus are:

I could be wrong.

I could be wrong, but I believe those who answer the questions below honestly will come up with the correct interpretation.

If you answer the questions below honestly and still come up with the Premill doctrine, then that is OK with me.

Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?

Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?

Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10

Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?
Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?
Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?
If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?

John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.
Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?

Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?
John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?
John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.

Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?
How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?
Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…

Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?
Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?

Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?
When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?

What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?
Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?

Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?

Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.
Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?
What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?

What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?

Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.

Zao is life · Oct 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
I could be wrong, but I believe those who answer the questions below honestly will come up with the correct interpretation.

If you answer the questions below honestly and still come up with the Premill doctrine, then that is OK with me.

Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?

Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?

Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10

Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?
Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?
Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?
If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?

John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.
Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?

Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?
John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?
John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.

Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?
How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?
Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…

Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?
Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?

Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?
When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?

What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?
Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?

Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?

Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.
Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?
What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?

What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?

Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.

I already answered those questions, I think on the first page or second page of this thread, in response to your long post where they were made. I also already answered those questions later in this thread, and so did others. It was pointed out to you for example that the the harlot city being destroyed by the beast is not the same as the Gog-Magog armies coming against the camp of the saints (which you quote together as though they belong together).

By the same token, I could easily compile a list of questions, which when answered honestly, disprove the belief that the millennium is symbolic, using the scriptures I provided in the OP, and those in my previous post, and a whole lot more.

The Trinity is not spoken of in the New Testament, but it is implied.
Mortals being ruled over by resurrected saints after the beast has been defeated and the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ, is not stated directly, but is implied by what has been prophesied (albeit far less clearly than the Trinity).

It all depends on the hearer or the reader.

Personally, I think that we are possibly all wrong, at least in certain respects, and all correct, at least in certain respects. We are simply not able to understand fully.

The thousand years, IMO, is the first thousand years of the Kingdom of God. One final rebellion will be permitted by God at the close of it. Christ will put an end to all rule and authority and power at the close of it, and hand the Kingdom back to God the Father. This is after the general resurrection and second death, when death - the last enemy to be destroyed - is destroyed, and all those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of Life are cast into the lake of fire where death and hades, the devil and the beast and false prophet are.

The Satanic spirit will be absolutely and completely bound in a real spiritual abyss during the thousand years. Not restricted, not bound "in a manner", but totally incapacitated. His ability to deceive the nations will be taken way from him until the thousand years have expired. There will be nothing, whatsoever, to hinder the spread of the gospel during the thousand years, and nothing, whatsoever to hinder the rule of Christ, the Son of Man. It will be a taste of the new heavens and new earth.

BABerean2 · Oct 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The Satanic spirit will be absolutely and completely bound in a real spiritual abyss during the thousand years. Not restricted, not bound "in a manner", but totally incapacitated. His ability to deceive the nations will be taken way from him until the thousand years have expired.

In Revelation 1:20 Christ reveals that the word "star" is a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.

Can you explain why an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in the verses below, if the pit was not locked previously?

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

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Timtofly · Oct 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Can you explain why an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in the verses below, if the pit was not locked previously?

Can you explain why the pit was never ever opened in the last 6000 years and yet it is Satan's home?

BABerean2 · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
Can you explain why the pit was never ever opened in the last 6000 years and yet it is Satan's home?

Why try to explain a question you made up, which is not based on any specific passage of scripture?

If you cannot answer the question about Revelation 9:1-2, just say so.

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Zao is life · Oct 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
In Revelation 1:20 Christ reveals that the word "star" is a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.

Can you explain why an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in the verses below, if the pit was not locked previously?

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

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1. It's the first time the abyss is opened since Calvary (the Bible does not mention any other time the abyss is opened after Calvary). If Satan had already been in the abyss, and was released again soon before the return of Christ, it would be the second time the abyss has been opened (he could not have been shut up in the abyss in the first place without it first being opened to shut him in it).

I believe the star fallen from heaven is Satan, and that he fell from heaven when the Bible says he did, i.e when Christ had been caught up to God and to His throne. Satan was cast down to the earth and just as the Bible states, he has continued with his war against "the rest of the woman's seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". It's all in Revelation 12. Therefore the abyss is opened by a being that opens it from the outside of it, not from inside it.

See my OP for how many times the Bible tells us to beware of Satan due his activity in the world and against the Church - and never once in any of those scriptures are we told he is actually bound in the abyss "in some manner".

2. There is absolutely no way you can ever prove that Revelation 20's thousand years is symbolic unless you first prove Satan is already in the abyss - and you simply cannot prove it, no matter how much you paint the air with the dark red paint you've been trying to paint the air with in this regard.

3. Hope you don't mind me not answering any more of your questions if those questions are just rehashes or repeats of the same questions you already asked in this same thread (probably twice or more), which myself and others have already replied to.

You shouldn't be resorting to the same old tired arguments over and over again in the same thread, when it's already been shown you with regard to certain arguments you have already made, that you cannot prove the thousand years is symbolic by what you say using those arguments (like Satan "being bound in the abyss" when Christ was caught up to God and to His throne).

See my OP for my answer to your questions above.

Rather use scriptures that do seem to prove the millennium of Revelation 20 is symbolic (like 2 Peter 3) - but you've already used those arguments - so why use them again?

I've shown you by now in this thread that there is just as much support in scripture for a belief in a literal thousand years following the return of Christ, as there is for a belief that the thousand years is symbolic.

You can't force anyone's hand by rehashing or repeating the same old tired arguments.

BABerean2 · Oct 25, 2020

DavidPT said:
In another post you indicated you don't have everything all figured out. None of us do. So why give the impression you have everything all figured out by ignoring what to logically do with E) above?

Maybe it is because you ignored the verses from Zechariah 14 about the living waters, and change in lighting, which connect the passage to Revelation chapters 21, and 22?

It is the same way you try to ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

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Zao is life · Oct 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Maybe it is because you ignored the verses from Zechariah 14 about the living waters, and change in lighting, which connect the passage to Revelation chapters 21, and 22?

It is the same way you try to ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

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Zechariah 14 fits both a literal thousand years and Revelation 21 and 22 - except that one part of Zechariah 14 does not fit Revelation 21 and 22.

There is just as much to connect the passage to a literal thousand years before the new heavens and new earth. "They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand (literal) years" because of the living water.

Since it's all a mystery to you still, see post #924 and read all the scriptures quoted there. It might help you to understand it better.

BABerean2 · Oct 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
There is absolutely no way you can ever prove that Revelation 20's thousand years is symbolic unless you first prove Satan is already in the abyss - and you simply cannot prove it, no matter how much you paint the air with the dark red paint you've been trying to paint the air with in this regard.

It is a simple matter to prove the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and you have already agreed to this point.

It is simple to find the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

It is a simple matter to use Paul as our source of timing, since he said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
The judgment of the dead is also at the end of Revelation 20.

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DavidPT · Oct 25, 2020

BABerean2 said:
It is a simple matter to prove the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and you have already agreed to this point.

It is simple to find the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

It is a simple matter to use Paul as our source of timing, since he said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
The judgment of the dead is also at the end of Revelation 20.

.

Here you go yet again. First you claim that you're not claiming you have everything figured out, then you give the impression per this post that you do have everything figured out. But until you figure out what to do with Zechariah 14:16-19 first, you haven't figured out much of anything yet. Wherever one places Zechariah 14:16-19 as initially coming to pass, there have to be more years remaining in order for them to come up or not come up year after year. And if Zechariah 14:16-19 can't even come to pass until the 2nd coming happens first, that means there have to be some more years post the 2nd coming in order for them to come up or not come up year after year. There are at least 2 ways to look at it if Zechariah 14:16-19 can't even come to pass until the 2nd coming happens first.

1)---it's not going to be like this for forever. It's only going to be like this for a thousand years.

2)---it's going to be like this for forever, that unsaved mortals will come up or not come up, and will be subject to being punished for failing to comply.

BABerean2 · Oct 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
But until you figure out what to do with Zechariah 14:16-19 first, you haven't figured out much of anything yet.

The first thing we need to do is figure out why you ripped those verses out of their context within the rest of the chapter.

Could it be because you are attempting to make the Premill doctrine work?

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

If we leave those verses within their context, we can see the passage is referring to Revelation 21, and 22.

Some of us used to believe the Premill doctrine, but let go of it when we found it does not agree with the whole of scripture.

Some of us cannot let go of it, even when we are shown it does not agree with the whole of scripture.

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Zao is life · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
It is a simple matter to prove the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and you have already agreed to this point.

It is simple to find the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

It is a simple matter to use Paul as our source of timing, since he said Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
The judgment of the dead is also at the end of Revelation 20.

.

Reward for some and judgment for some.

Your assumption is always, "Reward for some and judgment for all the rest". Here is the judgment of those who do not rise at the time of the return of Christ:

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6).

The second death takes place after the close of the millennium, at the GWT when death and hades deliver up ALL the souls in them.

We both agree that the judgment of ALL the dead comes at the close of the millennium - but you fail to prove that the millennium is not literal, by failing to prove Satan was bound and shut in the abyss when Christ was caught up to God and to His throne, and simply ignoring all the verses in scripture that collide with that notion has never, and will never help your argument. You've never answered the issues brought up in the OP of this thread.

Douggg · Oct 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

It is on my chart in the middle.

Zao is life · Oct 26, 2020

Douggg said:
It is on my chart in the middle.

View attachment 287173

It's a great work of art, but the artist does not understand the timing of these things any more completely than anyone else does - your timing is off when compared with the timing of other Christians who have done just as much research into this as yourself, over the same or even longer periods of time; and their discoveries, which have a stronger Biblical basis regarding timing than your chart, do not tally with yours.

Nice art work, though. If I had a gallery I would keep it hanging up on the wall, as a constant reminder that the Lord is coming.

Zao is life · Oct 26, 2020

I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them" Dan 7:21

"And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." Rev 13:7

".. that horn made war with the saints and overcame them until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." Dan 7:22

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And dominion and glory was given Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Dan 7:12-14

"And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself. And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations.
And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron." Rev 19:11-15

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." Rev 11:15

"I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame." Dan 7:11

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone." Rev 19:20

"And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes shall rot in their sockets. And their tongue shall rot in their mouth." Zech 14:12

"And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time." Dan 7:12

"And it shall be, everyone who is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be, whoever will not come up from all the families of the earth to Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, even on them shall be no rain." Zech 14:16-17.

"And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father." Rev 2:26-27

"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mat 19:28

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev 20:4

"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6).

AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS

"Son of man, set your face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him. And say, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. And I will turn you back, and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed most perfectly, a great assembly with buckler and shield, all of them swordsmen; Eze 38:2-4.

"After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you shall come into the land turned back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have always been waste. (But he has been brought out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.) And you shall go up, coming like a storm. You shall be like a cloud to cover the land, you and all your bands, and many peoples with you.

So says the Lord Jehovah: And it shall be in that day that things shall come into your heart, and you shall devise an evil plan." Eze 38:8-10

"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev 20:7-10

"And I will send a fire on Magog, and on the secure inhabitants of the coasts. And they shall know that I am the LORD." Eze 39:6.

1. There are scriptures that SEEM TO disprove the notion of a literal millennium.
2. There are scriptures that SEEM TO disprove the notion of a symbolic millennium.

(a) Those who believe in a literal thousand years tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is literal.

(b) Those who believe the thousand years is symbolic tend to either ignore, or explain away all the scriptures which collide with the notion that the thousand years is symbolic.

And the choir of all the saints sang in harmony

I could be wrong

Well, not ALL the saints join in with that choir. Some say "I am right".

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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