Where does this stuff come from?

Triumvirate said:

Mmhm, and by that generalisation, the right already does talk about what goes on in other countries just plenty so......what's your point?

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What's your point?

I never said they should.

Ana the Ist said:

No offense stevil....but you aren't from here...you don't know anything about it.

Again....you're not from here.

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If America doesn't want the rest of the world looking at its business then you better shut up shop on your news media, your exports and imports and all other ways you 'advertise' yourself abroad.
How you look abroad is terrible, I will tell you that much. The US would be one of the last places I would ever want to visit, which is a crying shame. 40 years ago it was at the top of my list of countries to tour.
We 'know' what we are shown and it's not pleasant.

stevil said:

Noone on the left thinks USA is a white supremicist nation.

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From the article...

But in 2008, the concept broke through to a broad audience, when Mr. Coates started writing a series of essays in The Atlantic and several popular books, in which he argued that the United States was mired from its inception in the muck of white supremacy and racist violence. Schools, language, the economy and politics: Nearly everything in the United States, he wrote, bore the mark of a white supremacist identity.

Ta-Nehisi Coates clearly believes this is a white supremacist nation. His ideas have been pushed by the left for the better half of the last decade.

So when I say that a large portion of the left believes this is a white supremacist nation...I can understand why you disagree. You aren't from here...you're clueless.

I'm not making it up though....there's a mountain of evidence to prove it.

I mean, it's pretty obvious the US left does think the US is white supremacist.

It's also pretty obvious they're right.

coffee4u said:

If America doesn't want the rest of the world looking at its business then you better shut up shop on your news media, your exports and imports and all other ways you 'advertise' yourself abroad.

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You make it sound like I actually have this option.

You need to at least consider that you're told these things about the US because it's exactly what you want to see.

Triumvirate said:

I mean, it's pretty obvious the US left does think the US is white supremacist.

It's also pretty obvious they're right.

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The crazy thing Triumvirate is that people think I'm making it up. I appreciate your honesty in saying what you believe.

Ana the Ist said:

The crazy thing Triumvirate is that people think I'm making it up. I appreciate your honesty in saying what you believe.

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Yeah, it's not exactly uniform across the left, but it is definitely an opinion that's fairly well-represented in it.

Triumvirate said:

Yeah, it's not exactly uniform across the left, but it is definitely an opinion that's fairly well-represented in it.

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Yeah I'm not trying to say everyone on the left....there's still a portion of "moderate" liberals who probably disagree with that sentiment.

It's a growing number of younger and far left people though.

Ana the Ist said:

You make it sound like I actually have this option.

You need to at least consider that you're told these things about the US because it's exactly what you want to see.

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It's not another country saying things about the US, it's the US itself. We see your political debates and riots and all the other dirty washing; it's all hung out for us to see. I'm not saying there are no good or even beautiful things about the US, I know there are, I have American friends. (and yes they do tell me things so that also does influence me to some extent not denying that) but what gets shown directly by US media leaves a lingering bad taste.

Obviously as a citizen, you won't have much of a say in these things, but I do honestly believe if the entire country decided 'to strike' as it were, to say they had had enough of both sides and instead vote for independents, that this would have an effect. On mass the general population can make a difference, but you all seem too busy fighting each other.

One thing you should all be demanding is preferential voting. This means no party under 50% of the vote could hold office. The other upside of this system is there is far more effort from candidates to actually campaign rather than just mud sling, it becomes more about what they bring to the table rather than what the other side doesn't. Trump would not have got in under this system, a system most of us have had for years.

Triumvirate said:

It's also pretty obvious they're right.

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Given that you also seem to believe it....what do you mean by white supremacist?

It used to mean people who believe white people are superior and should control everything and all other people should be oppressed or removed. As such, it really only referred to a really small and very racist group of people.

Now, it's hard to get a definition from anyone. It seems to refer to basically everything Europeans did from 1500AD on as white supremacist. I've seen mathematics, logic, history, and really everything in society described as white supremacist.

So what do you mean by it?

Ana the Ist said:

Given that you also seem to believe it....what do you mean by white supremacist?

It used to mean people who believe white people are superior and should control everything and all other people should be oppressed or removed. As such, it really only referred to a really small and very racist group of people.

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Not explicitly believing or saying this does not stop someone from propping up white supremacism....

Now, it's hard to get a definition from anyone. It seems to refer to basically everything Europeans did from 1500AD on as white supremacist. I've seen mathematics, logic, history, and really everything in society described as white supremacist.

So what do you mean by it?

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..because it's not just legal, it's attitudinal as well. Attitudes might not explicitly be racialised, but in how those attitudes bear out in society or how they impact other things, they can still reinforce the racialised outcomes of white supremacism.

'Law and order' might sound race-neutral, but it very often isn't applied that way, for example.

coffee4u said:

It's not another country saying things about the US, it's the US itself..

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It's not though...it's media. If CNN tells you something, that's going to be directly related to how much money they make from advertisers.

It's in their best interest to tell you what you want to hear. The truth doesn't matter.

The way some people talk about masks, you’d think they were some special piece of new technology, as opposed to, you know, a standard piece of medical equipment used for decades.

Why do you think surgeons wear them? For fashion?

Triumvirate said:

Not explicitly believing or saying this does not stop someone from propping up white supremacism....

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What does? Does racial representation matter?

What I'm saying is....does it matter if white people hold political power, or are in positions of legal authority, or wealth, or whatever...? Or can this "problem of white supremacy" only be solved by giving this "power" to non-whites?

..because it's not just legal, it's attitudinal as well. Attitudes might not explicitly be racialised, but in how those attitudes bear out in society or how they impact other things, they can still reinforce the racialised outcomes of white supremacism.

'Law and order' might sound race-neutral, but it very often isn't applied that way, for example.

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I think the problem with my understanding of it is there's just law and order...in my view. A white person commits a murder...they get punished. A black person commits a murder ....they get punished.

If someone along the way treats them wrongly because they're racist....that's wrong....and we should try to stop them....but it's not the system itself. It's the racist person.

FireDragon76 said:

Our intelligence is roughly similar, though he is somewhat more conservative. However, he's not a medical expert and the things he says don't make sense, and I'm worried he will endanger himself and my family. And that's why I fail to see the wisdom in what he is saying. It doesn't seem wise at all, it seems quite foolish and risky.

Also, I'm not a young man. I'm 44 years old, a college graduate and well-read with alot of different life experiences. Far more than my father.

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Look, your dad is your dad, he seems to love you an awful lot (or he wouldn't have cared enough to make sure you were safe if necessary)..

Who cares really, what he believes? He's probably on Facebook entirely too much... you might try and steer him away from that medium if you can, but otherwise, he's an adult entitled to his own opinion and views...

He's not a child. Stop acting like your his parent. He's made it to his 60's without you taking care of him...

My mother in law is in her 80's and sometimes gets into the craziest stuff on Facebook, we just try and steer her gently and then move on with life in love and respect.

Ana the Ist said:

What does? Does racial representation matter?

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Sure. It's better, but hardly perfect in many respects.

What I'm saying is....does it matter if white people hold political power, or are in positions of legal authority, or wealth, or whatever...? Or can this "problem of white supremacy" only be solved by giving this "power" to non-whites?

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If the system keeps consistently returning white people to power, then it's not unreasonable to question why, and it's quite probable that some leftover bias remains. Could be structural, but due to a different aspect of the system as opposed to just actively saying to black people "you can't run for office", or it could be that it's due to leftover poverty derived from the actual legally ensconced discrimination that means black people are more concerned with day to day surviving than doing things like running for office.

I think the problem with my understanding of it is there's just law and order...in my view. A white person commits a murder...they get punished. A black person commits a murder ....they get punished.

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Well, that would be nice, but the entire reason there are mass protests by and for black people in the US at the moment is that that 'punishment' tends to be way more severe - often fatally severe - for many cases involving black people. Not that this never happens to white people, but there is usually a better response in terms of inquiries when these things happen to them

If someone along the way treats them wrongly because they're racist....that's wrong....and we should try to stop them....but it's not the system itself. It's the racist person.

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You need to distance yourself from this idea of 'A Racist Person'. People do not go around going 'Hello, I am A Racist'. Biases are often unconscious, and this notion of A Racist Person is often a moving target. Is one racist comment enough to make a person A Racist Person? Two? Ten?

It individualises the problem when the problem is a collective one, and it becomes an exercise in proving whether a given person is A Racist Person, as opposed to just having said or done something racist that they should be held accountable for.

Also, not to belabour this point, but usually when people do start talking about punishing people who do things wrong based on race, they're called 'hate crimes' - and it's not like people who argue as you do like hate crime laws either....

I'm just going to note at this point I personally have very little inclination to try and convince people that white supremacy is real. I will simply note that someone from a British family raised in a country that Britain historically colonised (and still owns a bit of it, in fact), there is a lot of needless defensiveness over being honest about one's country's own history.

I was raised in the school system of that ex-colony, and a good chunk of that history is the impact of the British empire on that country. There wasn't any hatred, or attacking, but it was frank, and it was truthful and it didn't shy away from acknowledging that this happened, and it still impacts life between those countries today. As someone who's been through that system, I have basically no animus or hostility to talking about these topics. In Britain today, it is the people who haven't been educated in their country's own history that are the most hostile to the idea of talking about it or acknowledging that it happened at all.

And this is how I tend to look at this debate. The people who are most angry and defensive and upset at having to talk about these topics at all are almost always the ones who know least about their country's own history, or are least willing to face it, or haven't had to be on the receiving end of this kind of discrimination. I have little interest in wishing to convince such closed minds, hence my general disinterest in this sort of conversation.

Triumvirate said:

I'm just going to note at this point I personally have very little inclination to try and convince people that white supremacy is real. I will simply note that someone from a British family raised in a country that Britain historically colonised (and still owns a bit of it, in fact), there is a lot of needless defensiveness over being honest about one's country's own history.

I was raised in the school system of that ex-colony, and a good chunk of that history is the impact of the British empire on that country. There wasn't any hatred, or attacking, but it was frank, and it was truthful and it didn't shy away from acknowledging that this happened, and it still impacts life between those countries today. As someone who's been through that system, I have basically no animus or hostility to talking about these topics. In Britain today, it is the people who haven't been educated in their country's own history that are the most hostile to it.

And this is how I tend to look at this debate. The people who are most angry and defensive and upset at having to talk about these topics at all are almost always the ones who know least about their country's own history, or are least willing to face it, or haven't had to be on the receiving end of this kind of discrimination. I have little interest in wishing to convince such closed minds, hence my general disinterest in this for some sort of conversation.

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I think some have a tendency to regard racism as something necessarily conscious and intentional. The notion that it might be structural and unwitting is foreign to them.

Speedwell said:

I think some have a tendency to regard racism as something necessarily conscious and intentional. The notion that it might be structural and unwitting is foreign to them.

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Right. Though while racism is typically unwitting, the defensive reactions to being challenged on it are not.

In my recent experience, people tend to only get really personal with people accused of racism over the defensiveness moreso than the racism. The 'but you're not saying I'm A Racist Person, are you?!' reaction gets old fast because generally people aren't arguing that point at all, they generally just want you to acknowledge you messed up. People really don't care to argue that in the first instance, but they might start concluding you're a racist the more often you keep saying dodgy things and getting defensive and strawmanny when challenged on it.