Israeli Plan to take over much of the Middle East?

Freedm said:

If Elijah is one of the two men you believe never died, then I believe you are mistaken. The Bible never says he didn't die, though many believe the whirlwind to be proof of it I can prove to you it is not so.

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let`s see your proof

RickReads said:

let`s see your proof

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When Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (aka "tornado") he was taken up into the first heaven, which is our atmosphere where the birds fly. I say this because we know that he was still alive several years after the whirlwind event because he wrote a letter.

How do we know this? First of all, we know that Elisha had already taken the mantle of prophet from Elijah during the reign of Joram son of Ahab. 2 Kings 3.

2 Kings 3:1
Joram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria during the eighteenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned 12 years.

Immediately after king Joram began to reign (2 Kings 1), Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2). We know this not only because of the order of the book of 2nd Kings (chapter 2 comes after chapter 1) but also because it's confirmed in chapter 3 that Elisha is the new prophet.

11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Isn’t there a prophet of the Lord here? Let’s inquire of Yahweh through him.” One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on Elijah’s hands, is here.”

Elisha had picked up the mantle (literally) when Elijah was taken by the whirlwind, so at this point, during the reign of Joram, Elisha is the prophet.

2 Kings 2:13
Elisha picked up the mantle that had fallen off Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.

Five years into the reign of King Joram of Israel (and five years after the whirlwind), a new king began his reign in Judah (in place of Jehosophat). This King's name was Jeroham.

2 Kings 8:16
In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.

Now this next verse is the key. One of the things he did as King was to kill his brothers so that they couldn't claim the throne.

2 Chronicles 21:4
When Jehoram had established himself over his father’s kingdom, he strengthened his position by killing with the sword all his brothers as well as some of the princes of Israel.

In other words, Jehoram, killed his brothers, five years after the whirlwind. Then he received a letter from Elijah about that very same crime.

2 Chronicles 21:12-15
Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:

“This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”

The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.

Bottom line, Elijah survived the whirlwind.

Freedm said:

When Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (aka "tornado") he was taken up into the first heaven, which is our atmosphere where the birds fly. I say this because we know that he was still alive several years after the whirlwind event because he wrote a letter.

How do we know this? First of all, we know that Elisha had already taken the mantle of prophet from Elijah during the reign of Joram son of Ahab. 2 Kings 3.

2 Kings 3:1
Joram son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria during the eighteenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned 12 years.

Immediately after king Joram began to reign (2 Kings 1), Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind (2 Kings 2). We know this not only because of the order of the book of 2nd Kings (chapter 2 comes after chapter 1) but also because it's confirmed in chapter 3 that Elisha is the new prophet.

11 But Jehoshaphat said, “Isn’t there a prophet of the Lord here? Let’s inquire of Yahweh through him.” One of the servants of the king of Israel answered, “Elisha son of Shaphat, who used to pour water on Elijah’s hands, is here.”

Elisha had picked up the mantle (literally) when Elijah was taken by the whirlwind, so at this point, during the reign of Joram, Elisha is the prophet.

2 Kings 2:13
Elisha picked up the mantle that had fallen off Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan.

Five years into the reign of King Joram of Israel (and five years after the whirlwind), a new king began his reign in Judah (in place of Jehosophat). This King's name was Jeroham.

2 Kings 8:16
In the fifth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, when Jehoshaphat was king of Judah, Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat began his reign as king of Judah.

Now this next verse is the key. One of the things he did as King was to kill his brothers so that they couldn't claim the throne.

2 Chronicles 21:4
When Jehoram had established himself over his father’s kingdom, he strengthened his position by killing with the sword all his brothers as well as some of the princes of Israel.

In other words, Jehoram, killed his brothers, five years after the whirlwind. Then he received a letter from Elijah about that very same crime.

2 Chronicles 21:12-15
Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said:

“This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’”

The letter proves that Elijah was alive after king Jehoram of Israel killed his own brothers, and that happened five years after king Joram of Judah began to reign, which is exactly when Elijah was taken up in the whirlwind.

Bottom line, Elijah survived the whirlwind.

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It will take me awhile to look into this but thanks for your time in putting this up. Blessings!

BABerean2 said:

Unless the two witnesses are men made of wood, and metal, in the verse below, the witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

In Revelation 1:20 Christ said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches, and Paul uses the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles, grafted together into the same Olive Tree in Romans 11.

Therefore, we know the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

The one world government will stand in opposition to the Church.


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So you think this description of what the two witnesses do, and their being killed and their dead bodies lying in the street, describes the church?

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall liein the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

The church will die and it’s bodies lie in the street for 3 1/2 days and be resurrected? The church only prophecies for 3 1/2 years, wearing sackcloth?

I don’t think so...

BABerean2 said:

Unless the two witnesses are men made of wood, and metal, in the verse below, the witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

In Revelation 1:20 Christ said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches, and Paul uses the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles, grafted together into the same Olive Tree in Romans 11.

Therefore, we know the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

The one world government will stand in opposition to the Church.


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Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

Unless the two witnesses are men made of wood, and metal, in the verse below, the witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

In Revelation 1:20 Christ said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches, and Paul uses the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles, grafted together into the same Olive Tree in Romans 11.

Therefore, we know the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

The one world government will stand in opposition to the Church.


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You believe these verses apply to the church?

No way:

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall liein the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

BABerean2 said:

The Capital "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

We find those under the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

It was Jesus who said the "candlesticks" are a symbol of the churches in Revelation 1:20.

It was Paul who said the "olive trees" are a symbol of the Church in Romans 11:1-27.

The Book of Revelation is full of symbolic language.

What part of the above do you deny?


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Why is the church supposed to condemn people to eternal damnation? That is not the Good News Gospel. Do you send people to hell, when they persecute you?

BABerean2 said:

The Capital "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

We find those under the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

It was Jesus who said the "candlesticks" are a symbol of the churches in Revelation 1:20.

It was Paul who said the "olive trees" are a symbol of the Church in Romans 11:1-27.

The Book of Revelation is full of symbolic language.

What part of the above do you deny?


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When you read the verses I posted, it’s clear that the two witnesses are people.


But here’s some scholarship on that:


These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands: The witnesses have an unique, continual empowering from the Holy Spirit, as shown in Zechariah’s olive trees and oil lamps picture (Zec 4:2-3; Zec 4:14).

i. The passage from Zechariah had its first application TO TWO MEN in Zechariah’s day: Joshua and Zerubbabel. “Just as these two witnesses were raised up to be lampstands or witnesses for God and were empowered by olive oil representing the power of the Holy Spirit, so the two witnesses of Revelation 11 will likewise execute their prophetic office.” (Walvoord)


ii. In the picture from Zechariah, oil lamps are filled directly from olive trees which “pipe” oil right to the lamps. This is a picture of continual, abundant supply. If we will be witnesses, we must first have something to witness- our own personal encounter with Jesus Christ. Then, we must have the power of the Holy Spiritto bring forth the story of what we have witnessed effectively.

iii. “In this book of the Revelation the Holy Ghost borrows all the elegancies and flowers in the story of the Old Testament, thereby to set out the story of the New in succeeding ages.” (Trapp)

c. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies: The two witnesses have special protection from God, similar to Elijah’s in 2 Kings 1.

d. These have power to shut heaven . . . they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire: The two witnesses have the power to bring both drought and plague, similar to the power Elijah (Jas 5:17-18) and Moses (Exodus 7-12) had.

e. In the ancient Greek grammar, all the nouns used to speak of the two witnesses in this passage are in the masculine gender. The two witnesses ARE DEFINITELY TWO MEN.

chad kincham said:

When you read the verses I posted, it’s clear that the two witnesses are people.

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They are certainly described as two people, but isn't the whole point of symbolism to describe things in a manner that's more easily understood?

The answer to my own question is yes, but the more important question is; how can we tell the difference between literal text and symbolic? I see it this way: Literal text can not only be imagined literally but is actually plausible within the context of the world that we know. Symbolism on the other hand is written in a way that can also be imagined literally, but depicts the most incredible events which simply don't fit the world we know. Such as devouring people with fire coming out of one's mouth.

BABerean2 said:

It is our responsibility to preach the Gospel.
Those who do not respond are condemned already, not by us, but by God.


Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

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That is what the two witnesses do for 42 months. How can they be the church then according to the Gospel of Grace? It is not symbolic what they do. They actually physically send living people to sheol. The fire they call down or comes out of their mouths kills people in judgment giving them no more opportunity to repent and turn to God.

BABerean2 said:

Jos 21:43 So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it.
Jos 21:44 The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.



Greater Israel Project:

Do the globalists plan to take over the entire Middle East and then the entire world?

Do they plan to use modern Jerusalem as the capital of their one world government?


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It's possible. And it's possible that they will appoint another messiah who is not Jesus and therefore not the Messiah. And it's possible that they will build a temple in Jerusalem and call it the temple of God.

With Zionism anything planned by man without reference to Christ, is possible this side of the appearance of Christ in His glory. The Zionists learned this when the world (the U.N) divided up the land, which had been inhabited by Arabs and other non-Jewish people for well over a thousand years, and gave part of it to the Zionist Jews, who called it "Israel". It laid the foundation for any further goals the Zionists believe is possible, and which their Rabbis believe is their God-given inheritance.

BABerean2 said:

Do you believe these two men are made of wood, and metal?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Do you think Jesus was wrong in Revelation 1:20, when He said the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches in the Book of Revelation?


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Which is the symbolism: two human witnesses or the phrase two olive trees and two candlesticks? My senses say the two human witnesses are the literal terms. The other terms are the symbolic way to say what the two humans represent to God.

BABerean2 said:

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


The city above is also one of the cities built on 7 hills.

The Book of Revelation contains a tale of two cities.
One of those cities is our future home found in Revelation 3:12, and the other city is found above.

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I've said the same thing, and explained my reasons for saying it HERE

BABerean2 said:

The "Peace Plan" update.

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Absolutely disgraceful how Christians in that video apply the light to the nations in Isaiah 49:6 to an "Israel" which rejects the Light of the nations and claims itself to be the light of the nations.

Freedm said:

They are certainly described as two people, but isn't the whole point of symbolism to describe things in a manner that's more easily understood?

The answer to my own question is yes, but the more important question is; how can we tell the difference between literal text and symbolic? I see it this way: Literal text can not only be imagined literally but is actually plausible within the context of the world that we know. Symbolism on the other hand is written in a way that can also be imagined literally, but depicts the most incredible events which simply don't fit the world we know. Such as devouring people with fire coming out of one's mouth.

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There is always a type in the Bible:


Exo 7:19-20 "And the LORD spoke to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your rod, and stretch out your hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their canals, and upon their pools, and upon every reservoir of their waters,

that they may become blood.

And blood shall be throughout all the land of Egypt, both in wooden and in stone vessels."

"And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. And he lifted up the rod and struck the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants.

And all the waters in the river were turned to blood."


Rev 11:6 “These have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy.

And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.”

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial on the rivers and fountains of waters, and they became blood."

PS: I'm not claiming they are two individuals, nor am I claiming they are not. They are either two individuals, or they are many. We either have not been given the identity of the two witnesses in the Revelation, or we have (in other parts of scripture), but we fail to see it.

Either way I don't know whether they be two individuals or many.