Gabriel, in Daniel 8, in Daniel 9, what vision, what transgression in Daniel 9:23-24?

Timtofly · Oct 25, 2020

jgr said:
In post #54 you cited for support the opinions of unbelieving Jesus-rejecting Jews regarding Jesus and Daniel.

As a Christian, why would you ascribe any validity to such opinions?

It was to point out that your point was just an opinion like every other human on the planet. If you think that you have more authority on history than the ones who wrote the history, that is your opinion.

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
God is the point, not human opinion. God sees no difference between those under the Law and those under Grace. It is human opinions that complicate the point.

Yes....I agree....it is humans that complicate the point, especially when they obfuscate responses to questions about Daniel's people forming our Church.

John the baptizer....Mary, the mother of Jesus, the disciples and all the believers on the day of Pentecost (in Jerusalem) were "Daniel's people". It was grace through their faith that reconciled them to God (the Law never saved - that was a temporary covenant that was obsolete after the Cross and disappearing - Hebrews 8:13).

Acts 2
36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day.( j )

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
Yes, but the 70th week was given to God. Only 69 weeks were given to "Daniel's people".

25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.

7+62=69.

If a person ends the time at 69 weeks and leaves the 70th for the future, they deny Christ's ministry. Jesus arrived "on the scene" in 26/27 AD (John the baptizer had paved the way)......"to the time of Messiah" on the timeline brings us to Jesus's baptism and the beginning of His ministry at that time. He was "cut off but not for Himself" - a term for the death penalty by crucifixion - in 30 AD (halfway through the 70th week). His disciples and followers in ancient Jerusalem witnessed that death could not hold Him as He appeared to them for 40 days after His crucifixion. He ascended to heaven. As His witnesses.....His followers spread this news throughout Jerusalem for the remaining 3.5 years (just as God’s message to Daniel had foretold).

457 BC---- + 7-weeks/49 years/408 BC----- + 62 weeks/434 years/26 AD + (Messiah's baptism and beginning of ministry)......crucifixion 30 AD......34 AD end of 490 years

Infinite wisdom dictated the hour at which the Messiah should be born, and the moment at which He should be cut off. His advent and His work are the highest point of the purpose of God, the hinge of history, the center of providence, the crowning of the edifice of grace, and therefore peculiar care watched over every detail.

-C. H. Spurgeon

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
We are not told the specifics of the covenant.

The ancient Israelites knew the promises of their Messiah....the Son of Man that Daniel wrote of (Daniel 7:13):

Jesus referred to this Scripture here:

Mark 14:61-62
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power (l ) and coming with the clouds of heaven.” (m)

Combining Daniel's and King David's prophecies about Messiah

Psalm 110 ►

A Psalm of David.

1The LORD said to my Lord:

“Sit at My right hand

until I make Your enemies

a footstool for Your feet.”a 2The LORD extends Your mighty scepter from Zion:

“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”3Your people shall be willing

on Your day of battle.

Arrayed in holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn,

to You belongs the dew of Your youth.4The LORD has sworn

and will not change His mind:

“You are a priest forever

in the order of Melchizedek.”b 5The Lord is at Your right hand;

He will crush kings in the day of His wrath.6He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead;

He will crush the leaders far and wide.7He will drink from the brook by the road;

therefore He will lift up His head.

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Understanding God's covenants, IMO, is understanding the entire Biblical story from Genesis to Revelation.

I love these short videos the Bible Project has produced (less than 6 minutes):

God's unyielding covenant love
The first step God takes in repairing this partnership is to select a small group of people and make a new partnership with them called a "covenant." In this covenant, God makes promises to these people and asks them to fulfill certain commitments.

In total, there are four Old Testament covenants—one with Noah, one with Abraham, one with the Israelites, and one with King David. All these covenants serve the purpose of creating a new partnership into which God can eventually invite all humankind. Unfortunately, Israel eventually breaks these covenants with God.

Nevertheless, throughout the Old Testament, prophets talked about a day when God would once again create a new covenant, one that would completely restore all the broken covenants that came before it. This new covenant was fulfilled by God's Son, Jesus Christ. ~ "Covenants in the Bible | BibleProject™" Covenants in the Bible | BibleProject™

jgr · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
It was to point out that your point was just an opinion like every other human on the planet. If you think that you have more authority on history than the ones who wrote the history, that is your opinion.

No idea where you got that idea. I unfailingly defer to the greater authority of the historical defenders of the true faith.

Because, unlike John Darby, I believe in the merit, relevance, and applicability of their wisdom and discernment.

And, unlike the Jews whose opinions you've cited, they are not Christ-rejecters.

Douggg · Oct 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The ancient Israelites knew the promises of their Messiah....the Son of Man that Daniel wrote of (Daniel 7:13):

Jesus referred to this Scripture here:

Mark 14:61-62
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power (l ) and coming with the clouds of heaven.” (m)

Combining Daniel's and King David's prophecies about Messiah

Psalm 110 ►

A Psalm of David.

1The LORD said to my Lord:

“Sit at My right hand

until I make Your enemies

a footstool for Your feet.”a 2The LORD extends Your mighty scepter from Zion:

“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”3Your people shall be willing

on Your day of battle.

Arrayed in holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn,

to You belongs the dew of Your youth.4The LORD has sworn

and will not change His mind:

“You are a priest forever

in the order of Melchizedek.”b 5The Lord is at Your right hand;

He will crush kings in the day of His wrath.6He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead;

He will crush the leaders far and wide.7He will drink from the brook by the road;

therefore He will lift up His head.

Hi mkgal1,

What no-one knew until after Jesus appeared to the disciples after the resurrection was that the messiah would be killed for the propitiation of sins.

In Luke 18, Jesus told the disciples what was going to happen to him, but the understanding was closed to their understanding.

31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

_____________________________________________________________

After the resurrection, Jesus appeared to them, and reminded back to what he said to them in Luke 18.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

________________________________________________________________________

As I keep saying to BaB2, the new covenant is not mentioned by name, nor completeness, in Daniel 9, because otherwise Satan would not have been behind the crucifixion of Jesus - because Jesus's death on the cross and resurrection, meant the doom of Satan - as God could afterward justly destroy Satin for his sin - without destroying all of mankind for its sin.

Everyone here knows what the new covenant is because we live in the post resurrection era. Before then though the understanding of the new covenant was sealed.

Douggg · Oct 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Infinite wisdom dictated the hour at which the Messiah should be born, and the moment at which He should be cut off. His advent and His work are the highest point of the purpose of God, the hinge of history, the center of providence, the crowning of the edifice of grace, and therefore peculiar care watched over every detail.
-C. H. Spurgeon

Charles Spurgeon can only say that because we live in the post resurrection era. Before the resurrection though, Spurgeon if he lived then, would have been unknowing.

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Douggg said:
Hi mkgal1,

What no-one knew until after Jesus appeared to the disciples after the resurrection was that the messiah would be killed for the propitiation of sins.

It seems to me that Isaiah knew:

"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)

But He was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on Him the guilt and sins of us all. From prison and trial they led Him away to His death. But who among the people realized that He was dying for their sins – that He was suffering their punishment? I will give Him the honors of One who is mighty and great, because He exposed Himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners.” (Isaiah 53:5-6, 8, 12)

He had done no wrong, and He never deceived anyone. But He was buried like a criminal; He was put in a rich man’s grave.” (Isaiah 53:9)

......and King David wrote of the resurrection:

For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.” (Psalm 16:10)

.....but it's true that Jesus had to open the minds of His grieving disciples to show them how Scripture was about Him (Jesus).....false expectations and grief can blind us to reality and Truth. Jesus said, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day".....

Luke 24:44-
44Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.46And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things.

Douggg · Oct 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
It seems to me that Isaiah knew:

"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)

But He was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on Him the guilt and sins of us all. From prison and trial they led Him away to His death. But who among the people realized that He was dying for their sins – that He was suffering their punishment? I will give Him the honors of One who is mighty and great, because He exposed Himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners.” (Isaiah 53:5-6, 8, 12)

He had done no wrong, and He never deceived anyone. But He was buried like a criminal; He was put in a rich man’s grave.” (Isaiah 53:9)

......and King David wrote of the resurrection:

For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.” (Psalm 16:10)

.....but it's true that Jesus had to open the minds of His grieving disciples to show them how Scripture was about Him (Jesus).....false expectations and grief can blind us to reality and Truth. Jesus said, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day".....

Luke 24:44-
44Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.46And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things.

The prophets declared what God told them to proclaim. It dose not mean that they understood it, nor put everything together as how it would be fulfilled. And the only reason you and I are writing about it is because we live in the post resurrection era.

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Douggg said:
Everyone here knows what the new covenant is because we live in the post resurrection era. Before then though the understanding of the new covenant was sealed.

I think I can agree with this.

I do believe that God revealed what was necessary and in the timing the wisdom was needed. Daniel was instructed to "seal up these words until the time of the end" - Daniel 12:4 (that was around 540 BC)....so we do see that God didn't reveal all wisdom at once.

But I believe John the baptizer was preparing "Daniel's people" for their Messiah. He (John), I believe, broke the silence of the prophets that occurred after Micah (408 BC - 26 AD).

I think that's why the phrase is used that this final 70th week is about "confirming a covenant"....because it wasn't ever expected (by God, I believe) that it could even be fully understood overnight. God is gracious and merciful. Jesus had witnesses to His death, resurrection, and ascension....and they knew the Scriptures.....but it still took Jesus opening their minds for them to "get it".

Timtofly · Oct 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
If a person ends the time at 69 weeks and leaves the 70th for the future, they deny Christ's ministry. Jesus arrived "on the scene" in 26/27 AD (John the baptizer had paved the way)......"to the time of Messiah" on the timeline brings us to Jesus's baptism and the beginning of His ministry at that time. He was "cut off but not for Himself" - a term for the death penalty by crucifixion - in 30 AD (halfway through the 70th week). His disciples and followers in ancient Jerusalem witnessed that death could not hold Him as He appeared to them for 40 days after His crucifixion. He ascended to heaven. As His witnesses.....His followers spread this news throughout Jerusalem for the remaining 3.5 years (just as God’s message to Daniel had foretold).

457 BC---- + 7-weeks/49 years/408 BC----- + 62 weeks/434 years/26 AD + (Messiah's baptism and beginning of ministry)......crucifixion 30 AD......34 AD end of 490 years

Infinite wisdom dictated the hour at which the Messiah should be born, and the moment at which He should be cut off. His advent and His work are the highest point of the purpose of God, the hinge of history, the center of providence, the crowning of the edifice of grace, and therefore peculiar care watched over every detail.

-C. H. Spurgeon

You missed the point. The 70th week is God's week period.

Only 3.5 years were used by God. There are still 2.5 years left. Daniel's people did not finish the 70th week for God. God is about to finish it Himself in person on the throne. Both God and Jesus Christ the Lamb are about to change heaven and earth as we know it and finish the 70th week in physical presence. The spiritual and physical will no longer be two, but one single reality. The spiritual has been hidden from our ability to experience it. That is about to change.

Timtofly · Oct 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The ancient Israelites knew the promises of their Messiah....the Son of Man that Daniel wrote of (Daniel 7:13):
Jesus referred to this Scripture here:

Mark 14:61-62
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power (l ) and coming with the clouds of heaven.” (m)

Combining Daniel's and King David's prophecies about Messiah

Psalm 110 ►

A Psalm of David.

1The LORD said to my Lord:

“Sit at My right hand

until I make Your enemies

a footstool for Your feet.”a 2The LORD extends Your mighty scepter from Zion:

“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”3Your people shall be willing

on Your day of battle.

Arrayed in holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn,

to You belongs the dew of Your youth.4The LORD has sworn

and will not change His mind:

“You are a priest forever

in the order of Melchizedek.”b 5The Lord is at Your right hand;

He will crush kings in the day of His wrath.6He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead;

He will crush the leaders far and wide.7He will drink from the brook by the road;

therefore He will lift up His head.

Wrong covenant. The one with Satan.

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
Only 3.5 years were used by God. There are still 2.5 years left.

A week in prophetic language = 7 years. Where did the missing year go in your belief framework?

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
Wrong covenant. The one with Satan.

You're going to have to offer some support for that opinion.

Timtofly · Oct 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
You're going to have to offer some support for that opinion.

I covered it in post #79.

Timtofly · Oct 25, 2020

mkgal1 said:
A week in prophetic language = 7 years. Where did the missing year go in your belief framework?

Time passes every second. All the time that God has planned for this side of the Second Coming has passed. Those days are going to be shortened, and the time gets shorter each second.

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
Time passes every second. All the time that God has planned for this side of the Second Coming has passed. Those days are going to be shortened, and the time gets shorter each second.

Just saving.

mkgal1 · Oct 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
The last verse ties in with the Messiah: "He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]

Timtofly said:
Wrong covenant. The one with Satan.

mkgal1 said:
You're going to have to offer some support for that opinion.

Timtofly said:
I covered it in post #79.

You shared this for Scriptural support:

He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years] - Complete Jewish Bible

.......which is probably not the most reliable version to use when consulting Scripture about Messianic prophesies.

But you're still lacking support for the assertion that this covenant in Daniel 9 is with Satan (even the CJB doesn't state that).

Timtofly · Oct 26, 2020

mkgal1 said:
You shared this for Scriptural support:

He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years] - Complete Jewish Bible

.......which is probably not the most reliable version to use when consulting Scripture about Messianic prophesies.

But you're still lacking support for the assertion that this covenant in Daniel 9 is with Satan (even the CJB doesn't state that).

Who is the leader of spiritual wickedness in high places?

Gabriel, in Daniel 8, in Daniel 9, what vision, what transgression in Daniel 9:23-24?

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

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