want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

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OK,I hear you. I like forums that edify and build a person up in the faith. All I am getting is a corrupted version of Christianity and it is acting like a weed killer on my heart, so no fruit. I can't help wondering if the weeds and tares in the parable were the scribes, Pharisees and the unbelieving Jews. I am getting more and more depressed, neither am I feeling the love of God or the joy of the Lord in my soul, rather the opposite. It doesn't say much for the religion I feel. Give me the teaching of Jesus, instead of the verbose teaching of the cults. It is a Christian forum after all and that means the words of Christ and not the words of Calvin or others, whose adherents, somehow turn a simple parable into a battle ground to be disputed over.
.

The fight against OSAS is not for everyone. There are different functions in the body of Christ. For me, I love the fight. I love digging more into His Word to show those who do not see the truth that they are in error. I love standing up for the truth and fighting the good fight of faith. I have a passion for wanting to debate this topic because I want everyone to know the truth instead of people remaining in the darkness. I want the light of God's Word to shine and expose the hidden things in darkness. But this fight is not for everyone. We need to be anchored in His love in order to have this kind of fight. Anyways, may God guide you to the proper place in the body of Christ to the building up of the body.

Peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord.
 
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RickReads

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If we hold to OSAS then we say a born again believer can never leave his faith. To me that doesn't sound realistic.

I have to say you are misinformed. Some OSAS believe as you say, per my research most would not. Majority of OSAS have an Arminian belief system (i.e. John Wesley).

In my case I just believe what the Bible says. I only use the non Biblical terms for purposes of discussion.
The passage I gave you describes a preordained, one time salvation that God will not allow to be destroyed.
 
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I have to say you are misinformed. Some OSAS believe as you say, per my research most would not. Majority of OSAS have an Arminian belief system (i.e. John Wesley).

In my case I just believe what the Bible says. I only use the non Biblical terms for purposes of discussion.
The passage I gave you describes a preordained, one time salvation that God will not allow to be destroyed.

This is simply not true. The quote by John Wesley made in this very forum refutes such statements made by OSAS proponents here in this very thread.

I have also studied OSAS for 10 years, and most appear to justify sin in some way, and not holy living according to the Bible. For no OSAS believer believes that one loses their salvation via when they sin. They think king David was saved WHILE he was committing his sins of adultery and murder. This kind of teaching can lead many to think that one can go out and murder and commit adultery and still be saved. In fact, George Sodini believed just that. George Sodini murdered a bunch of people and then he took his own life and in his own suicide letter, he wrote that he would be saved and his future sins would be paid for by having a belief alone on Jesus and not of works. Even one of his own church members had said George was saved despite this grizzly incident. So people actually believe this junk. Eternal Security is going to lead a believer to justify sin in some way. I know this first hand. I have seen it. Those who appear for holiness in OSAS, I later have found out that they do not stand for the holiness as described in the Bible.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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This is simply not true. The quote by John Wesley made in this very forum refutes such statements made by OSAS proponents here in this very thread.

I have also studied OSAS for 10 years, and most appear to justify sin in some way, and not holy living according to the Bible. For no OSAS believer believes that one loses their salvation via when they sin. They think king David was saved WHILE he was committing his sins of adultery and murder. This kind of teaching can lead many to think that one can go out and murder and commit adultery and still be saved. In fact, George Sodini believed just that. George Sodini murdered a bunch of people and then he took his own life and in his own suicide letter, he wrote that he would be saved and his future sins would be paid for by having a belief alone on Jesus and not of works. Even one of his own church members had said George was saved despite this grizzly incident. So people actually believe this junk. Eternal Security is going to lead a believer to justify sin in some way.
See my new thread on Jacob Arminius for what real Arminians believe. Not modern day liberal ones.

Why do people blame calvinists ?
 
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See my new thread on Jacob Arminius for what real Arminians believe. Not modern day liberal ones.

I am not in favor of all of the points of Arminius.
 
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See my new thread on Jacob Arminius for what real Arminians believe. Not modern day liberal ones.

Why do people blame calvinists ?

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

  1. Conditional Election.
  2. Unlimited Atonement.
  3. Total Depravity.
  4. Prevenient Grace.
  5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

I believe in something close to this.

Here are my points (that are similar to Arminianism):

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
Note: My Arminian influenced points on my list above when rearranged spells CCUPP.

The differences in my points are:

(a) I believe in Partial Depravity, and not Total Depravity.

(b) I believe in Conditional Salvation, and not Conditional Preservation of the Saints. I do not believe God forces us against our own will to do what He wants. We need to be faithful (and it is not God who needs to be faithful on our behalf) (Yes, God can protect us, chastise us, etc., but we have to do our part first to make that so) (We are not puppets).

(c) I believe in Majority Atonement and not Unlimited Atonement. I believe that the sacrifice of Christ's atonement is for the majority of the world, and that it is a free will offer for a person to accept as a gift or to reject it of their own choosing, but God has excluded those who worship the beast in the future from the Lamb's book of life (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) (Note: While I am sure they had a free will choice to accept Christ, they were never going to do that and God knew that fact; They would do something that could never be forgiven).

(d) Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority and not Prevenient Grace. They are similar but not exactly the same. My view takes into account that God desires all men to be saved, and it also takes into account Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Prevenient Grace does not also clarify that God may not make multiple attempts to try and save a person, as well.

Conclusion: Does this make me a liberal Arminian? Well, I am not exactly a follower of Arminius. I just happen to agree with some of the points he made. Is one a Catholic if they believe in the Trinity? Our guide should be the Bible as the basis for our faith. Wherever that takes us is what we should believe. Unfortunately, many do not want to accept all of what the Bible plainly says today. A great example of this is believers accepting OSAS (Which does not align with what the Bible actually says in many places).
 
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RickReads

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This is simply not true. The quote by John Wesley made in this very forum refutes such statements made by OSAS proponents here in this very thread.

I have also studied OSAS for 10 years, and most appear to justify sin in some way, and not holy living according to the Bible. For no OSAS believer believes that one loses their salvation via when they sin. They think king David was saved WHILE he was committing his sins of adultery and murder. This kind of teaching can lead many to think that one can go out and murder and commit adultery and still be saved. In fact, George Sodini believed just that. George Sodini murdered a bunch of people and then he took his own life and in his own suicide letter, he wrote that he would be saved and his future sins would be paid for by having a belief alone on Jesus and not of works. Even one of his own church members had said George was saved despite this grizzly incident. So people actually believe this junk. Eternal Security is going to lead a believer to justify sin in some way. I know this first hand. I have seen it. Those who appear for holiness in OSAS, I later have found out that they do not stand for the holiness as described in the Bible.

Telling somebody what they believe and then refuting what you claim they believe is a loser argument.

Arminianism
 
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zoidar

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I have to say you are misinformed. Some OSAS believe as you say, per my research most would not. Majority of OSAS have an Arminian belief system (i.e. John Wesley).

In my case I just believe what the Bible says. I only use the non Biblical terms for purposes of discussion.
The passage I gave you describes a preordained, one time salvation that God will not allow to be destroyed.

I believe what you quoted says no turmoil can rip us out of God's hands, but that we can choose to leave God for different reasons. I don't like it, but I think this is reality.
 
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RickReads

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I believe what you quoted says no turmoil can rip us out of God's hands, but that we can choose to leave God for different reasons. I don't like it, but I think this is reality.

We can make that choice and if we do we will find out that we were never elect. God cannot stop being God. He knows the end from the beginning. Even the works finished from the foundation of the world.
God knows who will endure to the end and who won`t. Predestination is about God`s foreknowledge. It doesn`t rob you of your ability to fall away.
 
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zoidar

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We can make that choice and if we do we will find out that we were never elect. God cannot stop being God. He knows the end from the beginning. Even the works finished from the foundation of the world.
God knows who will endure to the end and who won`t. Predestination is about God`s foreknowledge. It doesn`t rob you of your ability to fall away.

I agree God knows who will endure to the end. I don't agree all elect will endure to the end.
 
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Albion

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I agree God knows who will endure to the end. I don't agree all elect will endure to the end.
What can "elect" mean if NOT saved?

Chosen to perform some particular task? That's not compatible with what we read in John 10. Or just temporarily "elect?" But does that even make sense?
 
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I agree God knows who will endure to the end. I don't agree all elect will endure to the end.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
 
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27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Yes His sheep are ERERNALLY SECURE in HIM. No way around Jesus teaching there. Same with Paul in

Romans 8:31-39
What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And

Ephesians 1:3-14
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
 
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Albion

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I believe elect means saved in the present tense, not that it means that final salvation is 100% certain.
What's being "elect" in the present tense mean? Chosen to receive grace sufficient to have faith and then you're on your own?

That hardly seems worth a special designation. And it definitely doesn't square with the Bible verses that RickReads gave us just a couple of posts back in post #833.
 
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zoidar

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What's being "elect" in the present tense mean? Chosen to receive grace sufficient to have faith and then you're on your own?

That hardly seems worth a special designation. And it definitely doesn't square with the Bible verses that RickReads gave us just a couple of posts back in post #833.

It's not like God leaves any believer, don't know where you got that from my post.

I believe we are elect now for a destination, heaven. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, like a letter got a stamp on it to be delivered to the destination. As long as the stamp is there the letter will be delivered.
 
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KurtHectic

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It doesn’t matter what you believe if it is not true.

God’s saving is conditional. It depends on listening to Jesus Christ and following his commandments. Jesus Christ was very clear about it.

People who use OSAS as an excuse to mistreat their brothers and sisters in Christ don’t truly believe in God and are all liars who are going to hell.

Anyone who believes truly in God does their best all the time to follow the commandments of Jesus Christ just as Jesus told us. They don’t ever worry about OSAS. That’s a red herring from Satan.

Godspeed.
 
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Albion

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It's not like God leaves any believer, don't know where you got that from my post.
No, I didn't say that, but you did say that "elect" may refer only to being chosen in the present.

I believe elect means saved in the present tense, not that it means that final salvation is 100% certain.
I took that to mean it's not permanent which, however, is how the word is usually understood.

I believe we are elect now for a destination, heaven. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, like a letter got a stamp on it to be delivered to the destination. As long as the stamp is there the letter will be delivered.

Sounds like what I thought you were saying before--a temporary or provisional status only.
 
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Albion

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People who use OSAS as an excuse to mistreat their brothers and sisters in Christ don’t truly believe in God and are all liars who are going to hell.
Which fact, however, neither proves nor disproves OSAS.

What some people may do in the name of OSAS is not what defines the concept called OSAS.
 
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