want to talk about OSAS?

Danthemailman said:

It was a spurious belief in the first place or else he would not have permanently fallen away. IN CONTRAST with the good ground hearer. Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience/perseverance.

*See the difference? All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no results at all, but instead fall away before faith is firmly rooted and established were not truly converted. It happens all the time. People come to church and hear the gospel, then make an emotional response accompanied by a shallow, temporary belief, then may last anywhere from 2 months to 2 years, then leave church never to return. I have witnessed it myself on multiple occasions.

So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience/perseverance.

That no root, no fruit, lacks moisture, withers away = saved is laughable. Faith without works is dead = spurious belief. (James 2:14-18)

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The thread is big and I couldn`t find the appropiate post but the contention has been that because the seeds germinated into a living plant it means they all had salvation at one point.

I don`t think that works because the seed is the word, the seed = the gospel. The plants don`t represent salvation, they represent growth in the knowledge of the gospel.

The ground represents the heart, The ground has to be the place where the salvation occurs. Only the good soil (believe in the heart) produces salvation.

1an said:

Having shallow roots means they were not strong in the faith and are easily tempted away. Even if their faith was not strong, they still believed for a time. You cannot loose something you never had, so obviously they believed in the First instance. The lesson there is to examine ourselves and make sure we are strong in the TRUE faith and have not been among the nettles and weeds of the heretics.

The heretics of OSAS say that cannot happen. It does happen and they are wrong.
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It`s against the rules to call people heretics so calm down please. You don`t want to hear from the mod hatter.

RickReads said:

The thread is big and I couldn`t find the appropiate post but the contention has been that because the seeds germinated into a living plant it means they all had salvation at one point.

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People can be physically alive, but spiritually dead, so that logic doesn't work.

I don`t think that works because the seed is the word, the seed = the gospel. The plants don`t represent salvation, they represent growth in the knowledge of the gospel.

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Receiving the word on good ground and having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeping it and bearing fruit with patience/perseverance represents salvation/one who truly believes the gospel and is saved.

The ground represents the heart, The ground has to be the place where the salvation occurs. Only the good soil (believe in the heart) produces salvation.

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Amen!

1an said:

The seed had roots and it began to grow, but did not produce fruit. That describes a backslider.
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its described a dead faith. faith without works is dead.

Jesus is YHWH said:

the devil believes and there is a dead faith- one with no works/fruit. Faith without works is DEAD.

No fruit no faith. That is taught everywhere in scripture.

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A new Christian is compared to a newborn baby. If the baby dies in infancy it was always a baby even though the poor thing never produced anything. Try and be sensible in your put-downs, it was a real baby and it was a real plant, they just never reached maturity.
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RickReads said:

OSAS Christians I have known were not Calvins. At least not Calvin extremists.

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Also, even Non-Calvinist OSAS Proponents believe in a reverse form of Calvinism in a way. Some will say that after a believer accepts Jesus of their free will, they are locked into salvation in living holy for the Lord and they will not fall away because God keeps them. But in many cases, when push comes to shove, you can get some of these folks to admit that they really do not believe in holy living as an essential thing. For even they believe that a believer can sin and still be saved on some level. The test. Just ask if they believe King David was saved WHILE he was committing his sins of adultery and murder. Ask them if a believer who commits suicide is still saved. Ask them if a believer generally lived a holy life, but then they looked at a woman in lust and then died while committing that sin, are they still saved if they never got a chance to confess of that sin?

RickReads said:

It`s against the rules to call people heretics so calm down please. You don`t want to hear from the mod hatter.

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Thank you for the tip, I think the ignore button would be good.

1an said:

A new Christian is compared to a newborn baby. If the baby dies in infancy it was always a baby even though the poor thing never produced anything. Try and be sensible in your put-downs, it was a real baby and it was a real plant, they just never reached maturity.
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A new Christian can be stillborn and a baby Christian in some cases remains a baby albeit saved.
I find it hard to dismiss OSAS without putting some form of a works component into the salvation.

1an said:

Thank you for the tip, I think the ignore button would be good.

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You don`t want that, you came here because you wanted to engage with people. Getting grumpy doesn`t help you prove your opinions and ignoring people will prevent you from having a fulfilling online pen joust.

Jesus is YHWH said:

its described a dead faith. faith without works is dead.

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Right, but as we know according to Matthew 7:23, just doing good works is not enough. For Jesus told those believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (i.e. sin). They justified sin. That is what many believers today do. They all tell me that a believer can sin and still be saved because they are all saved by a belief alone in Jesus. So when they sin, they are still saved. Yet, the Bible does not teach that. Paul says be not deceived that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Paul says that if any man does not agree with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and the know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). This means the words of Jesus are still in effect in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, and others. In other words, if a believer looks at a woman in lust, their whole body is in danger of being cast into hell fire. These words of Jesus are still in effect. Jesus never was making a point about how you cannot keep God's laws, either. If you believe that excuse that OSAS proponents use, then where is the verse? It is non-existant.

RickReads said:

A new Christian can be stillborn and a baby Christian in some cases remains a baby albeit saved.
I find it hard to dismiss OSAS without putting some form of a works component into the salvation.

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And therein lies the confusion. Many Christians today think that the work of God done through the believer (i.e. putting away sin, obeying God's commands, doing good works, living holy) as a part of the Sanctification Process for salvation is heresy. OSAS folk have things backwards. They do not understand that Paul was fighting against the heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” at that time. Circumcision Salvationism is described to us at the Jerusalem council in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. This was the false belief that said a believer had to be circumcised in order to be iniitally saved. The problem in believing this is if they made circumcision the basis for their salvation instead of Jesus Christ, they are trying to be saved by the Law of Moses. They are trying to make works the foundation of their salvation and not Jesus Christ. Paul even alludes to this heresy in Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, etc.; This is why Paul says things like we are saved by God's grace through faith and it is a gift of God and not of works in Ephesians 2:8-9. Paul then gives them the correct process of works in Ephesians 2:10. Ephesians 2:10 is God directed works done through the believer. Ephesians 2:9 is talking about man directed works in trying to be saved by Law Alone without God's grace. Ephesians 2:1 talks about how we have been quickened. How many times is a believer quickened? Just one time. Ephesians 2:8 says God's grace is received like a gift. How many times do you receive a gift? Just one time. So Ephesians 2 is dealing with how we are initially saved. The foundation of our faith in salvation and it is not referring to the Sanctification Process that follows that is also a part of salvation.

To put it to you another way: Believers are first saved by God's grace (Justification) which is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law.
Then believers continue in God's plan of salvation in the Sanctification Process.

I don't have that much against OSAS because you can still hold firm to the most important things in scripture. There are fine Christians being OSAS-believers as there are fine Christians that aren't holding that view. I don't believe scripture teaches it, but there are far worse doctrines out there.

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, even Non-Calvinist OSAS Proponents believe in a reverse form of Calvinism in a way. Some will say that after a believer accepts Jesus of their free will, they are locked into salvation in living holy for the Lord and they will not fall away because God keeps them. But in many cases, when push comes to shove, you can get some of these folks to admit that they really do not believe in holy living as an essential thing. For even they believe that a believer can sin and still be saved on some level. The test. Just ask if they believe King David was saved WHILE he was committing his sins of adultery and murder. Ask them if a believer who commits suicide is still saved. Ask them if a believer generally lived a holy life, but then they looked at a woman in lust and then died while committing that sin, are they still saved if they never got a chance to confess of that sin?

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A lot of Christians make mistakes (sin so easily besets Heb 12:1). We all need mercy and we all need a Savior.

I went to a conservative Apostolic Pentecostal church for several years. Very strict rules. A wonderful, simple way of life and as I get older I`m getting closer to returning to that way of life. All that Law keeping didn`t make me a better person. Near as I can tell it didn`t make the other members of the church better people either. The only thing that ever really helped me was just, the Holy Spirit when He works on my heart and strengthens my faith.

Aussie Pete said:

Not correct. If you are born again, then you have eternal life. Eternal life is just that. If it can end, then it is not eternal.

However, the Kingdom of God is a different issue. It is indeed possible to be born again and yet miss out on kingdom rewards and blessings. You cannot use the parable of the prodigal in the way that you interpret it. The son was still the son, and his father was still his father. The parable is much more about the love of the father, and God's attitude to those who fall away, than the son who strayed. The real villain is the elder brother, the self righteous one who was estranged in heart, even if living at home.

One of the evidences that a person is born again is that he no longer wants to sin. Many are so bound up that they are unable to break free. The lack of teaching about God's mighty delivering power leaves a lot of Christians in a cycle of sin, failure and defeat. Be careful how you judge.

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Eternal life is a person and it not a super power or magic wish granted to you by a genie. Christ alone posseses immortality according to 1 Timothy 6:16. 1 John 5:12 says that he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. This life is eternal life. So a person needs to abide in the Son in order to have eternal life. Well, that is you believe these verses in Scripture. Many in the OSAS camp will just ignore them or they will try to change them because they don't like them. So how can we have an assurance that we know Jesus and thereby have access to eternal life? 1 John 2:3 says, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” Keeping God's commands involves acting on being saved by His grace (1 John 3:23), which then follows in entering the Sanctification Process of putting away sin, doing good works, and living holy by God's power. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” So we are chosen to salvation by two things and not just one. We are chosen to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief in the truth. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

zoidar said:

I don't have that much against OSAS because you can still hold firm to the most important things in scripture. There are fine Christians being OSAS-believers as there are fine Christians that aren't holding that view. I don't believe scripture teaches it, but there are far worse doctrines out there.

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I`m pursueded by the passage below,

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

RickReads said:

A new Christian can be stillborn and a baby Christian in some cases remains a baby albeit saved.
I find it hard to dismiss OSAS without putting some form of a works component into the salvation.

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OK,I hear you. I like forums that edify and build a person up in the faith. All I am getting is a corrupted version of Christianity and it is acting like a weed killer on my heart, so no fruit. I can't help wondering if the weeds and tares in the parable were the scribes, Pharisees and the unbelieving Jews. I am getting more and more depressed, neither am I feeling the love of God or the joy of the Lord in my soul, rather the opposite. It doesn't say much for the religion I feel. Give me the teaching of Jesus, instead of the verbose teaching of the cults. It is a Christian forum after all and that means the words of Christ and not the words of Calvin or others, whose adherents, somehow turn a simple parable into a battle ground to be disputed over.
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1an said:

OK,I hear you. I like forums that edify and build a person up in the faith. All I am getting is a corrupted version of Christianity and it is acting like a weed killer on my heart, so no fruit. I can't help wondering if the weeds and tares in the parable were the scribes, Pharisees and the unbelieving Jews. I am getting more and more depressed, neither am I feeling the love of God or the joy of the Lord in my soul, rather the opposite. It doesn't say much for the religion I feel. Give me the teaching of Jesus, instead of the verbose teaching of the cults. It is a Christian forum after all and that means the words of Christ and not the words of Calvin or others, whose adherents, somehow turn a simple parable into a battle ground to be disputed over.
.

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I`m sorry that all this is making you feel that way. I think there are places on this site that would meet your expectations. This the controversy forum and except for me everybody in here is all mixed up

I`ve never gotton that deep touch of God from the internet though. You need to be with believers in the real world to get that. However the site has forums for people who have the same beliefs to get together.
It has places that are for prayer requests, personal issues etc. All good, I`ve participated in those a little bit. You`ll have to be nice if you go to those places though

I hope you find what you need.

RickReads said:

A new Christian can be stillborn and a baby Christian in some cases remains a baby albeit saved.
I find it hard to dismiss OSAS without putting some form of a works component into the salvation.

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RickReads said:

I`m pursueded by the passage below,

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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If we hold to OSAS then we say a born again believer can never leave his faith. To me that doesn't sound realistic.

1watchman said:

Your whole problem, Highlighter, is you appear to have been under false teachings,

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The Lord said we would be accused falsely. I want to thank you for that. For the Lord tells me to rejoice and be exceedingly glad whenever that happens (See: Matthew 5:11-12).

You said:

and KEEP speaking of the acts of flesh (which ALL mankind, including "born again" saints, have) as meaning they LOST their salvation.

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“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” (Romans 8:1).

Paul says there is no condemnation if one walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Paul says that the works of the flesh are certain sins and says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul says if you live after the flesh, you will die. You are singing a different tune.

You said:

That is NOT true to Scripture; and please know that when any saint continues to indulge the flesh it is called "carnality" in Holy Scripture ---and God speaks much of that failure to REAL saints in Corinth as their often failures. They were told by the Apostle to change their ways.

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The Corinthians that justified the sins of strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3) were not saved at this point in their life in 1 Corinthians chapter 3.
Galatians 5:19-21 lists the sins of strife and envy and says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Many confuse the parable made by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3. Paul was the gospel planter. The Corinthians were the works of his efforts. So Paul would be the one who was saved through fire, and the Corinthians (Paul's work in the gospel) would be like hay and stubble who would be burned up in the Lake of Fire because they went back to justifying sin again.

Romans 8:6-8 says,
6 “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Can people who do not please God go to Heaven?
I would say... “no.”

You said:

Real saints of God by the new birth in Jesus Christ, are SEALED as has been explained, if you want to review that counsel herein.

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Again, I will refer you back to post #342 about the seal of God that you never gave a proper reply to with Scripture.

RickReads said:

I`m pursueded by the passage below,

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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There are two things that are not on this list. The believer and their sin. Nothing is said of the believer or their sin not being able to separate them from the love of Christ. In fact, Paul also says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

So to isolate these words by Paul here in Romans 8:28-39 is to take his words out of context.