want to talk about OSAS?

Kenny'sID said:

Still no proof this "believer" had no works.

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Rocky, shallow ground/the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root is all the proof I need. Plus the Bible mentions absolutely NOTHING about the rocky, shallow ground producing fruit, which is all the proof I need. Now where is your proof otherwise? That's check mate. *Only the 4th soil (good ground) is said to have produced a crop of various sizes.

And it seems I recall Danthemailman has always touted we don't need works to be saved. Please correct me on that if I have it wrong.

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Works are the fruit of salvation, but not the cause of salvation. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

And I'm just not getting anything substantial from Danthemailman on what exactly this believer fell away from.

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I gave you a substantial answer, but you just don't have ears to hear. Please explain to me what YOU believe it means to "believe" unto salvation. Do you believe that ALL belief is the same? (Luke 8:13; John 8:31-59; Acts 16:31; James 2:19)

Kenny'sID said:

if he fell away from a shallow belief, that would mean he no longer had a shallow belief, so, dude, that makes no sense at all.

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It makes perfect sense. In the case of these shallow ground hearers, they fall away when the time of testing comes which demonstrates that their faith was never firmly rooted or established in the first place or else they would have persevered and produced a crop of one size or another.

Some people may actually start out believing (at least to some degree) in Jesus (based on their own misconceptions and expectations as we see in John 8:41-59) then later find out that Jesus does not line up with their original expectations.

If you read in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

*So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but instead were children of the devil.

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says do not believe (John 6:64). Not unto salvation anyway. They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, then as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him.

So to believe in Christ "unto salvation" goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief in the existence of Christ. It also goes beyond merely believing that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. *We must believe from the heart (Romans 10:9) in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ by TRUSTING in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16)

You added so much there that the bible simply does not say. Please stop doing that an calling it fact.

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What did I add? I clearly made my case FROM SCRIPTURE in post #762. It truly blows my mind how the crystal clear truth just continues to go right over your head.

Danthemailman said:

Plus the Bible mentions absolutely NOTHING about the rocky, shallow ground producing fruit, which is all the proof I need.

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Lol! Hilarious, and desperate attempt at proof.

The bible doesn't say it doesnt produce fruit either. Besides you are way out of the ballpark to even try to use that, when the ground doesn't produce a believers fruit. The bible is usuing that as an analogy for roots, and you are trying to stick something else into it.

Between that and your prior explanation for "falling away" I think you are fast running out of gas here.

Danthemailman said:

It makes perfect sense

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It makes sense he was no longer shallow since that is what he fell away from?

That hardly helps your stance.

Kenny'sID said:

Lol! Hilarious, and desperate attempt at proof.

The bible doesn't say it doesnt produce fruit either. Besides you are way out of the ballpark to even try to use that, when the ground doesn't produce a believers fruit. The bible is usuing that as an analogy for roots, and you are trying to stick something else into it.

Between that and your prior explanation for "falling away" I think you are fast running out of gas here.

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You still cannot refute anyone who opposes your views with scripture and exegesis.

You are just relying on your personal opinion.

Why don't you exegete the parable for us in Matthew 13:3-9

Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

Kenny'sID said:

It makes sense he was no longer shallow since that is what he fell away from?

That hardly helps your stance.

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Do you know anything about farming or agriculture from personal experience and not what you have been told or read from others ?

I do as I live in the agriculture center of California, the Central Valley and I personally care for over 70 different varieties of fruit trees, grapes, berries etc.....

Jesus is YHWH said:

You are just relying on your personal opinion.

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Honestly, it speaks for itself...100% and only OSAS cannot see how simple it is to define what is said here:

Luke 8:13 The seeds that fell on rocky ground stand for those who hear the message and receive it gladly. But it does not sink deep into them; they believe only for a while but when the time of testing comes, they fall away

A believer believed only for awhile, then fell away from his belief in the gospel. Easy.

Kenny'sID said:

Lol! Hilarious, and desperate attempt at proof.

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Scripture is all the proof I need. Sorry you are unable to grasp the truth from scripture. This is no laughing matter.

The bible doesn't say it doesnt produce fruit either.

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So where is the fruit from the seed that fell on rocky ground? Can you show me from scripture. Actually, YOU CAN'T. When are you going to stop fighting against the truth? Only the 4th soil is said to have produced fruit/a crop of various sizes.

Besides you are way out of the ballpark to even try to use that, when the ground doesn't produce a believers fruit. The bible is usuing that as an analogy for roots, and you are trying to stick something else into it.

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No root, no fruit, lacks moisture = no salvation. Authentic saving belief in Christ continues and produces fruit (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) as we saw with the 4th soil (good ground). Belief that saves is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away. When are you going to get that through your head? Do you still not understand what it means to believe unto salvation?

Between that and your prior explanation for "falling away" I think you are fast running out of gas here.

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Actually, my tank is full. Your tank is empty. Let me know when you find a verse in scripture which states that this shallow ground, temporary believer produced fruit. I'll be waiting.

1an said:

So...?

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So, every saved person is elect, election isn`t just about services we are predestined to perform.
I don`t see your contention disproving OSAS.

Kenny'sID said:

Honestly, it speaks for itself...100% and only OSAS cannot see how simple it is to define what is said here:

Luke 8:13 The seeds that fell on rocky ground stand for those who hear the message and receive it gladly. But it does not sink deep into them; they believe only for a while but when the time of testing comes, they fall away

A believer believed only for awhile, then fell away from his belief in the gospel. Easy.

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You described an unsaved person like these disciples and judas.

John 6:66-71
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

Do you know anything about farming or agriculture from personal experience and not what you have been told or read from others ?

I do as I live in the agriculture center of California, the Central Valley and I personally care for over 70 different varieties of fruit trees, grapes, berries etc.....

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Plants are easy, used to grow and sell them on ebay. but none of what you just said does anything for the subject. Or maybe you just felt the need to tel us what you do.

Danthemailman said:

Scripture is all the proof I need. Sorry you are unable to grasp the truth from scripture. This is no laughing matter.

So where is the fruit from the seed that fell on rocky ground? Can you show me from scripture. Actually, YOU CAN'T. When are you going to stop fighting against the truth? Only the 4th soil is said to have produced fruit/a crop of various sizes.

No root, no fruit, lacks moisture = no salvation. Authentic saving belief in Christ continues and produces fruit (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) as we saw with the 4th soil (good ground). Belief that saves is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away. When are you going to get that through your head? Do you still not understand what it means to believe unto salvation?

Actually, my tank is full. Your tank is empty. Let me know when you find a verse in scripture which states that this shallow ground, temporary believer produced fruit. I'll be waiting.

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He doesn't know the first thing about farming or agriculture. If he did he would know how absurd his comments really are dan.

Kenny'sID said:

Plants are easy, used to grow and sell them on ebay. but none of what you just said does anything for the subject. Or maybe you just felt the need to tel us what you do.

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I don't believe you for if you really knew you would understand the principle of bearing fruit.

Any tom, dick or harry can sell anything on ebay, that's like relying on wiki for information. Very unreliable and for the gullible.

Jesus is YHWH said:

You still cannot refute anyone who opposes your views with scripture and exegesis.

You are just relying on your personal opinion.

Why don't you exegete the parable for us in Matthew 13:3-9

Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

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Having shallow roots means they were not strong in the faith and are easily tempted away. Even if their faith was not strong, they still believed for a time. You cannot loose something you never had, so obviously they believed in the First instance. The lesson there is to examine ourselves and make sure we are strong in the TRUE faith and have not been among the nettles and weeds of the heretics.

The heretics of OSAS say that cannot happen. It does happen and they are wrong.
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Kenny'sID said:

Honestly, it speaks for itself...100% and only OSAS cannot see how simple it is to define what is said here:

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It's your anti-OSAS bias that keeps you from accepting the truth.

Luke 8:13 The seeds that fell on rocky ground stand for those who hear the message and receive it gladly. But it does not sink deep into them; they believe only for a while but when the time of testing comes, they fall away

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No root, no fruit, lacks moisture, scorched by the sun, withers away = no salvation. Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

A believer believed only for awhile, then fell away from his belief in the gospel. Easy.

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If his belief was firmly rooted and established in the gospel, then he would not have fallen away. Those who truly believe the gospel are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14) That obviously was not the case for this shallow, temporary believer, so he obviously believed in vain and was not saved. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

1an said:

Having shallow roots means they were not strong in the faith and are easily tempted away. Even if their faith was not strong, they still believed for a time. You cannot loose something you never had, so obviously they believed in the First instance. The lesson there is to examine ourselves and make sure we are strong in the TRUE faith and have not been among the nettles and weeds of the heretics.
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the devil believes and there is a dead faith- one with no works/fruit. Faith without works is DEAD.

No fruit no faith. That is taught everywhere in scripture.

Jesus is YHWH said:

You described an unsaved person like these disciples and judas.

John 6:66-71
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

hope this helps !!!

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No, that is just you throwing random scriptre at something that has nothing to do with that scripture. You do that a lot, and tendto show how yiu confuse scripture often.

Kenny'sID said:

No, that is just you throwing random scriptre at something that has nothing to do with that scripture. You do that a lot, and tendto show how yiu confuse scripture often.

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Nothing random at all scripture interprets scripture, precept upon precept is that basic principle. The entire bible lines up with what I just said from Genesis - Revelation.

Jesus is YHWH said:

the devil believes and there is a dead faith- one with no works/fruit. Faith without works is DEAD.

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There you go again, this beliver was not even indicated by Christ to be of the devil, you really are mixed up when it comes proving scripture.

Im afraid you and Dan both have show by your last few desperate attempts, that you are on your last leg here.

Jesus is YHWH said:

He doesn't know the first thing about farming or agriculture. If he did he would know how absurd his comments really are dan.

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The seed had roots and it began to grow, but did not produce fruit. That describes a backslider.
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