Gabriel, in Daniel 8, in Daniel 9, what vision, what transgression in Daniel 9:23-24?

mkgal1 said:

Remigius (437-533 AD) tells us this:
“[F]or on the approach of the Roman army, all the Christians in the province, warned, as ecclesiastical history tells us, miraculously from heaven, withdrew, and passing the Jordan, took refuge in the city of Pella; and under the protection of that King Agrippa, of whom we read in the Acts of the Apostles, they continued some time.”

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Can you explain why even in the 5th century it was not listed as fulfillment of any prophecy, even though the warning was heeded?

jgr said:

Of what validity are the opinions of unbelieving Jews about Christ?

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To give you a point in some chat room 1990 years later.

mkgal1 said:

This may need its own thread....but how do you explain this?

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Matthew 23:35

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood that was shed upon the earth, the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zechariah the son of Berechiah, whom ye slew between the Temple and the altar.

Jesus gave us the names of the first and last righteous person of the OT period that were killed. Some may have died naturally before Jesus died on the Cross that we do not know about. But they are those who make up the church in the OT. No one died before Abel.

Timtofly said:

To give you a point in some chat room 1990 years later.

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Unbelievers don't give me any points.

What points do they give you?

Timtofly said:

Can you explain why even in the 5th century it was not listed as fulfillment of any prophecy, even though the warning was heeded?

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I don't know if Remigius ever specifically stated that following Jesus's instruction was fulfilled prophecy....but Josephus had written this:

jgr said:

Unbelievers don't give me any points.

What points do they give you?

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It is your line of questioning, not mine. I am trying to figure out where you are going with all of this.

mkgal1 said:

I don't know if Remigius ever specifically stated that following Jesus's instruction was fulfilled prophecy....but Josephus had written this:

War 4.6.3 381-388

But these Zealots came at last to that degree of barbarity as not to bestow a burial either on those slain in the city, or on those that lay along the roads; but as if they had made an agreement to cancel both the laws of their country and the laws of nature, an, at the same time that they defiled men with their wicked action, they would pollute the Divinity itself also, they left the dead bodies to putrify under the sun.
...These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of man, and laughed at the Laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers. Yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning virtue and vice, by the transgression of which these Zealots occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their country.
For there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews and their own hands should pollute the Temple of God. Now, while these Zealots did not disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment.​

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He definitely was not talking about anything Jesus said in the Gospels. Josephus wrote a secular history of the Jews taking information from the written OT. Neither would he refer to Daniel as the oracle. Josephus wrote about Daniel and declared himself that Antiochus Epiphanies fulfilled Daniel. Being a Jew, Josephus was referencing an oracle (prophet) other than Daniel. So Josephus that you quoted was not pointing out it was a prophecy given by Jesus nor Daniel. That was the point, no?

I never said they did not heed a verbal warning that burned in the hearts of many early disciples even into the 2nd century. The point is no one made it difinitive. Seems like does not cut it nor did the words "seems like" appear in the Gospels. Even in the 5th century it did not "seem like". Preterism was a fringe belief that kept being fringe until about the 1100 year mark, and people went back and redefined the 1st century from a 12th century perspective, rejecting the Bible as being future, but already fulfilled. It may still seem like, since nothing has changed since 70AD information wise.

Timtofly said:

Jesus gave us the names of the first and last righteous person of the OT period that were killed. Some may have died naturally before Jesus died on the Cross that we do not know about. But they are those who make up the church in the OT. No one died before Abel.

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We were speaking of the New Covenant....the time beginning with Jesus's baptism....you've not explained this....are you excluding Mary, mother of Jesus....John the baptizer....the disciples....the 3,000 believers on the day of Pentecost after the Ascension etc... from the New Testament Church when you wrote this, below?

Douggg said:

I have never heard anyone else address parts of Daniel 9 like I have - agreed. And also parts of Matthew 24. And also the timing of the Rapture. And also the explanation of the heads/horns/crowns in Revelation 17/12/13. And also that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

And my charts are unique. The transgression of desolation of Daniel 8:12-13 is adjacent to the rider on the red horse.

View attachment 287083

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Your own personal interpretation. How does it feel to be the only person on the planet, to hold to that viewpoint?

It is extremely rare to see an interpretation that only has one advocate. It is a first for me to witness such an event in Christianity.

Douggg said:

But the Jews and Jerusalem as a people has yet to embrace Jesus and the gospel of Salvation. The 70 weeks are still unfulfilled.

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Israel was grafted out of the olive tree and can only be grafted back in, by a belief in Jesus. So that's not going to happen. The Jews will never believe in Jesus now, too much water under the bridge.

mkgal1 said:

We were speaking of the New Covenant....the time beginning with Jesus's baptism....you've not explained this....are you excluding Mary, mother of Jesus....John the baptizer....the disciples....the 3,000 believers on the day of Pentecost after the Ascension from the New Testament Church when you wrote this, below?

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The church started with Abel. Who is in the church is not the point. The church is still being added to daily.

Daniel's 490 years did not end at the Cross. There are 2.5 left. The start of the NT church is not the completion. The completion of the church is the completion of Daniel's 490 years. If the church is the fulfillment, it definitely would not be 30AD. It would be when God says the church is complete and the "door is shut" and no more humans can enter the "doors of the church".

klutedavid said:

Israel was grafted out of the olive tree and can only be grafted back in, by a belief in Jesus. So that's not going to happen. The Jews will never believe in Jesus now, too much water under the bridge.

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An IBM technician back last century claimed no one would have a personal computer. It was an impossibility. Most every one has a better computer in their smart phones than the one of his day.

Probably wise not to say never when it comes to God.

Timtofly said:

An IBM technician back last century claimed no one would have a personal computer. It was an impossibility. Most every one has a better computer in their smart phones than the one of his day.

Probably wise not to say never when it comes to God.

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Interesting that you mentioned smart phones. This technology orientated age we live in now, is unlike any era that I have ever known.

I have never seen people so self absorbed and so time poor.

I do believe that social media is reshaping the world now, and the old world is rapidly in decline. A nation turning to Jesus such as Israel, has a probability of success at zero.

Modern Israel is not the theocratic Israel of the first century. Different federal law, democratic government, and a western society. An impossible event.

Timtofly said:

Daniel's 490 years did not end at the Cross.

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I agree. He was cut off (crucified) in the middle of the 70th week (in 30 AD). The 490 years ended in 34 AD..

Timtofly said:

The completion of the church is the completion of Daniel's 490 years

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Completion of the church? What Scripture are you getting this from? You realize Daniel's prophecy was for Daniel's people (the Israelites) and Daniel's city (Jerusalem)....right?

Timtofly said:

Who is in the church is not the point.

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It's the point, especially if you're excluding the faithful remnant of the 12 tribes of Israel from His Church.

Timtofly said:

It is your line of questioning, not mine. I am trying to figure out where you are going with all of this.

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In post #54 you cited for support the opinions of unbelieving Jesus-rejecting Jews regarding Jesus and Daniel.

As a Christian, why would you ascribe any validity to such opinions?

mkgal1 said:

Completion of the church? What Scripture are you getting this from? You realize Daniel's prophecy was for Daniel's people (the Israelites) and Daniel's city (Jerusalem)....right?

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression​

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Yes, but the 70th week was given to God. Only 69 weeks were given to "Daniel's people".

25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.

7+62=69.



7 “To you, Adonai, belongs righteousness; but to us today belongs shame — to us, the men of Y’hudah, the inhabitants of Yerushalayim and all Isra’el, including those nearby and those far away, throughout all the countries where you have driven them; because they broke faith with you.
8 Yes, Adonai, shame falls on us, our kings, our leaders and our ancestors; because we sinned against you.
9 It is for Adonai our God to show compassion and forgiveness, because we rebelled against him.

The point was not about the temple. The fullness of time was about God coming to earth. So if you take 7 years away from 490, you get 483. Only 69 weeks or 483 years was given to The Jews. The 7th week was set apart for God Himself. Jesus did not hang around after the Cross, and finish a full 7 years on earth. The Second Coming will conclude the last few years set aside for God. Daniel uses the term Adonai or Lord. The Second Coming is the Day of the Lord, mentioned in many other OT prophecies. Daniel split up 7 years given to the Lord, but used the term Messiah, and never completed the last half of the week in his prophecy.

The Messiah would be cut off mid week and have nothing. The prophecy switched back and said the temple would be destroyed, but not as part of the 70 weeks. It would just happen sometime in the middle of the Lord God’s week.

The last verse ties in with the Messiah: "He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

The death of the Messiah put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering in terms of Adonai dealing with the temple. So what covenant was made with leaders that ends in desolation? It was not the binding of Satan as some claim. Why would Satan agree to that covenant? God made a covenant with Satan that would only end with Satan being bound: "On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." What destruction was decreed? We are not told the specifics of the covenant. It would end with the destruction of the desolation itself. The only other Scripture we have is Revelation 13. The introduction of the desolation. The 7 vials in Revelation 16 is the destruction poured out onto Satan the desolator, and the desolation, along with all who followed after Satan and the desolation. God will be on earth for 7 years, but was cut off when Messiah was cut off.

Jesus gave us a parable about the covenant with Satan, but it was longer than 7 years. It represented all time. It does explain that God sent His Son and the leaders killed Him. The finish will be when God Himself comes.

That part was left for future, but we do know that there was an application given. It was important for that time. However the parable was about Satan, not just the transfer from the Law (Temple) to Grace (the church). The covenant was not over because the last half of Daniel's 7 years given to Adonai was never completed. The covenant between God and the "leaders" will only be completed in the Second Coming when God Himself comes to earth. The destruction of the desolation will be the end of the covenant. God will pour out His wrath at that point.

mkgal1 said:

It's the point, especially if you're excluding the faithful remnant from the 12 tribes of Israel.

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God is the point, not human opinion. God sees no difference between those under the Law and those under Grace. It is human opinions that complicate the point.