Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

sovereigngrace said:

The whole of Paul’s teaching in this New Testament passage is establishing who “the children of God” really were/are. We see that Abraham had a natural lineage and also a spiritual lineage. Significantly, it was only the spiritual seed that carried any spiritual credentials. Paul distinguished here between biological Israel and faithful Israel. He shows that these are two different diverse peoples. In doing this he is attempting to illustrate the impotence of the natural and the potency of the spiritual.

Just because they belonged to Israel (or the natural seed of Abraham) did not signify that they were God’s chosen people. He shows how “the children of the flesh” are not “the children of God;” it is rather “the children of the promise” – faithful believing Israel. How can Dispensationalists get around this? No one should miss the distinction between the true spiritual seed of Abraham and the mere natural seed. Plainly: “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children” (Romans 9:6). Paul demonstrates that it is “the children of the promise” that “are counted for the seed.” This spiritual company are the ones that really matter.

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So again I ask is God not able to save `nations, and the nation of Israel? `

sovereigngrace said:

Not so. Your responses are brief and evasive. When your beliefs are exposed as erroneous you immediately change subjects. It is impossible to flesh out God's Word with you.

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I write simply so not to complicate the topic.

So `the nations & Israel,` are they to be wiped out or can God fulfil His purposes for them through Christ?

sovereigngrace said:

Wrong subject, era and Testament. It is actually in Romans 11.

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I wrote concerning Rom. 11. The prophet Daniel revealed the fulfilment of that in Dan. 2 & 7.

`And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed..` (Dan. 2: 44)

`Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.` (Dan. 7: 27)

Marilyn C said:

Yes the individuals. So are you saying that God can not yet turn His nation, Israel to Himself, as a nation?

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If God were to decide to countermand Israel's free will, transform them into automatons, and impose conversion upon them, then His justice would compel Him to do the same for the entirety of humanity.

The same justice would also compel Him to do the same for all individuals past, present, and future, who have rejected or will reject Him, and who have died or will die in their sin.

Do you believe in a universalist God?

Scripture for that?

Marilyn C said:

We discussed Rom. 11: 1 - 5 & saw that Israel as a nation did not obtain what they sought. However reading further on we know that because of Christ they will turn to Him.

`For I do not desire brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
And so ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.` (Rom. 11: 25 & 26)

We can look at the other scriptures later if you like.

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Based on the words of Jesus in Luke 21:24-28, the times of the Gentiles comes to fulness at the future Second Coming of Christ.


A second witness is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, where Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know Him.


Are all of the Israelites partially hardened, or are part hardened and part are not hardened? The answer is found in the "remnant" of Romans 11:5.


There is no Plan B of salvation based on race found in the Bible.

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Marilyn C said:

So are you telling me that God made the nation of Israel and worked with them for centuries and that when they didn`t do what He said, then now God gets rid of Israel?

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Why do you continue to refuse to distinguish between believing Israel and unbelieving Israel?

Did God get rid of believing Israel?

Again, the answer lies in dispensationalism's refusal to recognize that distinction, because it is a death knell for the racialization of God and His Word which is indispensable to dispensationalism's survival and continuation.

Until that distinction is understood and applied, there can be no understanding of the message of Scripture, and of God's plan for humanity through the ages.

There can only be continued chaos and confusion disrupting and nullifying the message and work of the Church of God, and serving Satan's purposes and objectives.

Marilyn C said:

It was a parable that the Lord told, in Matthew 22 concerning the wedding feast.

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You said it was literal and on earth.

Marilyn C said:

And where do you see Christ ruling and reigning then?

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He reigns now in heaven where the souls of dead believers are and also He reigns in our hearts and we obviously are on the earth.

My view comes from passages like these:

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

So, Jesus is reigning over His kingdom now and will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He returns.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

This passage indicates that He reigns now and will continue to reign until the last of His enemies has been put under His feet and that last enemy is death.

The following shows that this will happen "at the last trumpet".

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Notice that it is at the last trumpet when death will be swallowed up in victory. Premils miss the connection between verse 54 and 26 even though it should be obvious. Surely, when death has been swallowed up in victory, death will have been defeated. How would anyone think otherwise except for doctrinal bias? This places the fulfillment of verse 26 at Christ's second coming at the last trumpet and not 1000+ years later.

Marilyn C said:

There are truths that apply to us, however as we read ALL of God`s word regarding the INHERITANCES we see that there are DIFFERENCES.

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Keeping in mind the fact that the NT repeatedly tell us that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile believers and that we (Jew and Gentile believers) are all Abraham's spiritual descendants and heirs of the promises made to Abraham's seed, which is Christ (Gal 3:16), what are these different inheritances that you're talking about?

sovereigngrace said:

This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

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Exactly. And he also said this:

Romans 11: I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

How did he go from hoping that some (a remnant) of them would be saved in verse 14 to declaring that all of them would be saved in verse 26? Clearly, he would not do that since it would defy all common sense to do so. So, did he have a sudden change of mind in the 11 verses in between and somehow decide that despite him hoping that some would be saved a minute earlier he now felt sure that all of them would be saved? That can't be it, either, since it makes no sense.

So, what is the explanation? Could it be that he was speaking of a different Israel of which all members will be saved than the nation of Israel? Yes, that is the only explanation that can make sense of Romans 11:26 in light of what he had said previous to that without causing a contradiction.

Premils, of course, miss what Paul said in Romans 9:6-8 where he differentiated between the spiritual Israel of God whose members are all saved and the nation of Israel of whom some, a remnant, are saved and he also made it clear in that passage that salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with one's nationality or ethnicity.

Marilyn C said:

So again I ask is God not able to save `nations, and the nation of Israel? `

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It's not a matter of what God can do. Of course, He can do anything He wants to do. But, scripture repeatedly teaches that God is impartial which means that in terms of salvation He does not show favoritism based on nationality, ethnicity, gender, social status or anything like that.

With that in mind, why would He save the whole nation of Israel but not any other nation? That would make Paul's repeated claims that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile and that salvation is by faith in Christ untrue.

Scripture teaches that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (John 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4, 1 John 2:1-2). So, if He was going to decide that one day He was no longer going to make people responsible to choose whether to believe or not, then why would He not save all of the people He desires to be saved rather than just the people of Israel?

You can't allow yourself to interpret a passage like Romans 11:26 in a way that contradicts many other passages. It's not right to pick and choose which passages you accept while diregarding the rest that say something different than how you understand that passage.

Marilyn C said:

I write simply so not to complicate the topic.

So `the nations & Israel,` are they to be wiped out or can God fulfil His purposes for them through Christ?

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How has He not already fulfilled His purpose for them through Christ? What more does Christ need to do than sacrifice His life for them?

Is anything preventing any of them from being able to put their faith in Christ right now or in the past 2000 years? No.

Spiritual Jew said:

Premils, of course, miss what Paul said in Romans 9:6-8 where he differentiated between the spiritual Israel of God whose members are all saved and the nation of Israel of whom some, a remnant, are saved and he also made it clear in that passage that salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with one's nationality or ethnicity.

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And some humans miss the point that the Second Coming is the Day of the Lord, and will last 1000 years. That Day cannot start until the Second Coming. So why conflate the here and now? Some may get the here and now wrong, yet I am not convinced they do. But to deliberately deny God a 1000 years is mind boggling. With God all things are possible. Stating that the 1000 years is impossible is as messed up as your alleged confusion about what you claim pre-mill think about the body of Christ.

No way can the Lord's Day be stretched out to define the current church situation in a world of sinful flesh, only defined by Adam's fallen nature passed down to all his descendants. If this sinful time is dedicated to God as you claim, that is pretty messed up. Why would sin nature be the glory of God revealed on earth? Even the church cannot keep herself pure, but plays the harlot over and over again.