want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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There is no "free will" man is a slave to sin, in bondage si sin, the will is a slave to sin period. 15 reason below why man has no free will.

1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is a sinner (Rom 5:12)
7)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
8)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
9)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
10)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
11)man is sinful in the womb (Psalm 51:5)
12)man is conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
13)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
14) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
15)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)


And quit blaming Calvin when Arminus is in agreement. Learn your history.

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.
7Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

hope this helps !!!

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me
 
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And none were saved except one- the good soil.

next.......................

This has already been addressed but you ignore it. The seed that grew to be a plant to be choked by thorns and the seed that endured for a while as a plant but fell away because the ground was rocky were LIVING plants. The analogy is that if they are living plants that means that they have life and life is a parallel of eternal life. They had life or salvation only for a while and then fell away and became later unsaved.
 
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Matthew 7:23 talks about the judgment. Jesus says to those believers who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. These believers had a belief that justified sin and they thought they were good with the Lord because they had some fruit in their life. Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Here is a picture to help illustrate that for you.

full


So yeah, OSAS is not true because it leads many into justifying sin in some way.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

The prodigal son.


In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.
Not correct. If you are born again, then you have eternal life. Eternal life is just that. If it can end, then it is not eternal.

However, the Kingdom of God is a different issue. It is indeed possible to be born again and yet miss out on kingdom rewards and blessings. You cannot use the parable of the prodigal in the way that you interpret it. The son was still the son, and his father was still his father. The parable is much more about the love of the father, and God's attitude to those who fall away, than the son who strayed. The real villain is the elder brother, the self righteous one who was estranged in heart, even if living at home.

One of the evidences that a person is born again is that he no longer wants to sin. Many are so bound up that they are unable to break free. The lack of teaching about God's mighty delivering power leaves a lot of Christians in a cycle of sin, failure and defeat. Be careful how you judge.
 
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1watchman

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Your whole problem, Highlighter, is you appear to have been under false teachings, and KEEP speaking of the acts of flesh (which ALL mankind, including "born again" saints, have) as meaning they LOST their salvation. That is NOT true to Scripture; and please know that when any saint continues to indulge the flesh it is called "carnality" in Holy Scripture ---and God speaks much of that failure to REAL saints in Corinth as their often failures. They were told by the Apostle to change their ways.

Real saints of God by the new birth in Jesus Christ, are SEALED as has been explained, if you want to review that counsel herein. The only explanation I can see for holding to "losing salvation" as you seem to value, is you do not value what God has told us about problems of flesh (which we all have). That is why God spoke of some saints who preferred to be "carnal and walk as men"; and you seem to want to make it all about choices for 'winning heaven by works' ---NOT A TRUE PATH to say one must stay away from sin or lose all (which is NOT what God has told us). We MUST stay away from sin to OBEY and HONOR our God, or one will forfeit much at the "Judgment Seat" in Heaven!

I hope this helps you move away from that FALSE assumption that a "born again" believer in Jesus Christ will be kept OUT of Heaven for failing by flesh. Do parents get rid of their children when they seem to often act badly? We must compare Scripture with Scripture and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth". I pray you will find this truth, dear brother!
 
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1an

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Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!

-- John Wesley
Satan has been very busy beguiling people on the forums.
.
 
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1an

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Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t ever need to repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

The prodigal son.


In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.
We ignore those warnings at our peril.
.
 
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1an

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Your whole problem, Highlighter, is you appear to have been under false teachings, and KEEP speaking of the acts of flesh (which ALL mankind, including "born again" saints, have) as meaning they LOST their salvation. That is NOT true to Scripture; and please know that when any saint continues to indulge the flesh it is called "carnality" in Holy Scripture ---and God speaks much of that failure to REAL saints in Corinth as their often failures. They were told by the Apostle to change their ways.

Real saints of God by the new birth in Jesus Christ, are SEALED as has been explained, if you want to review that counsel herein. The only explanation I can see for holding to "losing salvation" as you seem to value, is you do not value what God has told us about problems of flesh (which we all have). That is why God spoke of some saints who preferred to be "carnal and walk as men"; and you seem to want to make it all about choices for 'winning heaven by works' ---NOT A TRUE PATH to say one must stay away from sin or lose all (which is NOT what God has told us). We MUST stay away from sin to OBEY and HONOR our God, or one will forfeit much at the "Judgment Seat" in Heaven!

I hope this helps you move away from that FALSE assumption that a "born again" believer in Jesus Christ will be kept OUT of Heaven for failing by flesh. Do parents get rid of their children when they seem to often act badly? We must compare Scripture with Scripture and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth". I pray you will find this truth, dear brother!
Highlighter does not have a false view.
.
 
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Kenny'sID

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This has already been addressed but you ignore it. The seed that grew to be a plant to be choked by thorns and the seed that endured for a while as a plant but fell away because the ground was rocky were LIVING plants. The analogy is that if they are living plants that means that they have life and life is a parallel of eternal life. They had life or salvation only for a while and then fell away and became later unsaved.

Ask him what the believer "fell away" from, and youll get nothing but nonsensical replies having nothing to do with the question.

IOW, he knows he fell away from salvation, but chooses not to admit it.
 
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chad kincham

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Not correct. If you are born again, then you have eternal life. Eternal life is just that. If it can end, then it is not eternal.

However, the Kingdom of God is a different issue. It is indeed possible to be born again and yet miss out on kingdom rewards and blessings. You cannot use the parable of the prodigal in the way that you interpret it. The son was still the son, and his father was still his father. The parable is much more about the love of the father, and God's attitude to those who fall away, than the son who strayed. The real villain is the elder brother, the self righteous one who was estranged in heart, even if living at home.

One of the evidences that a person is born again is that he no longer wants to sin. Many are so bound up that they are unable to break free. The lack of teaching about God's mighty delivering power leaves a lot of Christians in a cycle of sin, failure and defeat. Be careful how you judge.

You fail completely to realize that sin negates promises and covenants.

The new covenant promises eternal life, but the scriptures make it crystal clear that willfully continuing in a given sin, breaks the promise or covenant.

Israel had an eternal and perpetual covenant, but their continual sinning broke the covenant, and God ended it.

Before that, God promised the Israelites that they would enter the promised land (hence its title), but when they sinned against God by murmuring, He cancelled the promise and kept everyone of the adults out of the promised land, and only after that generation died off, did the Israelites get to enter.

You claim: You cannot use the parable of the prodigal in the way that you interpret it. The son was still the son, and his father was still his father.

He may have remained a son, but the father said HE WAS A DEAD SON while living in sin in the world, but became ALIVE AGAIN after he returned in repentance.

He obviously didn’t physical die and come to life again, thus he had been DEAD IN HIS SINS.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead* and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and is *found*.

The prodigal son is absolutely proof that OSAS is bogus.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

YOU SAID: The only explanation I can see for holding to "losing salvation" as you seem to value, is you do not value what God has told us about problems of flesh (which we all have)

Paul clearly said he had to keep his body (his flesh) in subjection, lest after preaching to others, he end up a castaway.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The word castaway is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which means reprobate - rejected by God as one failing the test.

Paul is absolutely saying that he could end up a reprobate and rejected by God, if he did not subjugate and control his flesh.

Paul WARNS us against being DECEIVED about living in the flesh as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH, that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth TO HIS FLESH shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap LIFE EVERLASTING.


You reap everlasting life ONLY if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

BTW you can’t spin it - if you’re not in the kingdom, you’re not going to be present with God for eternity.

In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.

Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed grows, and results in new life, but then it withers and dies.

Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Notice above, they ‘received the word with joy’.

To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:

1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having ‘**received the word** in much affliction, **with joy** of the Holy Ghost.

Some believe for a while, then fall away.

OSAS is unbiblical and false.
 
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Agreed.

OSAS originated with the five point TULIP doctrine - since grace/salvation is irresistible and Gods will for them, then one can’t be lost.

Anyone who believes in free will should realize if there is freewill, then there’s no OSAS.

All this talk forced me to go brush up on my manmade terminology. Per my research, most OSAS believers are Arminians and Arminianism developed a few years after Calvinism. The two were oppositional views in the 1500`s just as they are today.

OSAS is not Tulip anymore then Arminimania is.
 
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It seems: 'a mind persuaded against its will, is of the same opinion still'; so, I will rest my case, and let each go on as they choose. I hope in time that all the deniers of what has been shown, and as I have shared by keeping Scripture in its proper perspective, will pray much and find the mind of God. Let us 'go in peace' here and be "rightly dividing the Word of truth" as God enjoins us.
 
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It seems: 'a mind persuaded against its will, is of the same opinion still'; so, I will rest my case, and let each go on as they choose. I hope in time that all the deniers of what has been shown, and as I have shared by keeping Scripture in its proper perspective, will pray much and find the mind of God. Let us 'go in peace' here and be "rightly dividing the Word of truth" as God enjoins us.

I think there is more to discuss and for a OSAS rumble this has been pretty tame. I get a lot out of the remarks on this thread, it`s a good one.

I think almost everyone would agree that we must endure to the end and if that is true then our ideas about the gospel aren`t as far apart as they might seem.
 
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You fail completely to realize that sin negates promises and covenants.

The new covenant promises eternal life, but the scriptures make it crystal clear that willfully continuing in a given sin, breaks the promise or covenant.

Israel had an eternal and perpetual covenant, but their continual sinning broke the covenant, and God ended it.

Before that, God promised the Israelites that they would enter the promised land (hence its title), but when they sinned against God by murmuring, He cancelled the promise and kept everyone of the adults out of the promised land, and only after that generation died off, did the Israelites get to enter.

You claim: You cannot use the parable of the prodigal in the way that you interpret it. The son was still the son, and his father was still his father.

He may have remained a son, but the father said HE WAS A DEAD SON while living in sin in the world, but became ALIVE AGAIN after he returned in repentance.

He obviously didn’t physical die and come to life again, thus he had been DEAD IN HIS SINS.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead* and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and is *found*.

The prodigal son is absolutely proof that OSAS is bogus.

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

YOU SAID: The only explanation I can see for holding to "losing salvation" as you seem to value, is you do not value what God has told us about problems of flesh (which we all have)

Paul clearly said he had to keep his body (his flesh) in subjection, lest after preaching to others, he end up a castaway.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The word castaway is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which means reprobate - rejected by God as one failing the test.

Paul is absolutely saying that he could end up a reprobate and rejected by God, if he did not subjugate and control his flesh.

Paul WARNS us against being DECEIVED about living in the flesh as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH, that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth TO HIS FLESH shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap LIFE EVERLASTING.


You reap everlasting life ONLY if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

BTW you can’t spin it - if you’re not in the kingdom, you’re not going to be present with God for eternity.

In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.

Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed grows, and results in new life, but then it withers and dies.

Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Notice above, they ‘received the word with joy’.

To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:

1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having ‘**received the word** in much affliction, **with joy** of the Holy Ghost.

Some believe for a while, then fall away.

OSAS is unbiblical and false.
You fail completely to understand what it means to be born again and the difference between initial salvation and the salvation of the soul. It also means that the prayer of Jesus in John 17 is not being answered. I find that impossible to accept.
 
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RickReads

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You fail completely to realize that sin negates promises and covenants.

The new covenant promises eternal life, but the scriptures make it crystal clear that willfully continuing in a given sin, breaks the promise or covenant.

Israel had an eternal and perpetual covenant, but their continual sinning broke the covenant, and God ended it.

Before that, God promised the Israelites that they would enter the promised land (hence its title), but when they sinned against God by murmuring, He cancelled the promise and kept everyone of the adults out of the promised land, and only after that generation died off, did the Israelites get to enter.

You claim: You cannot use the parable of the prodigal in the way that you interpret it. The son was still the son, and his father was still his father.

He may have remained a son, but the father said HE WAS A DEAD SON while living in sin in the world, but became ALIVE AGAIN after he returned in repentance.

He obviously didn’t physical die and come to life again, thus he had been DEAD IN HIS SINS.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead* and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and is *found*.

The prodigal son is absolutely proof that OSAS is bogus.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

YOU SAID: The only explanation I can see for holding to "losing salvation" as you seem to value, is you do not value what God has told us about problems of flesh (which we all have)

Paul clearly said he had to keep his body (his flesh) in subjection, lest after preaching to others, he end up a castaway.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The word castaway is ADOKIMOS in the Greek, which means reprobate - rejected by God as one failing the test.

Paul is absolutely saying that he could end up a reprobate and rejected by God, if he did not subjugate and control his flesh.

Paul WARNS us against being DECEIVED about living in the flesh as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH, that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth TO HIS FLESH shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap LIFE EVERLASTING.


You reap everlasting life ONLY if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

BTW you can’t spin it - if you’re not in the kingdom, you’re not going to be present with God for eternity.

In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.

Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed grows, and results in new life, but then it withers and dies.

Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Notice above, they ‘received the word with joy’.

To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:

1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having ‘**received the word** in much affliction, **with joy** of the Holy Ghost.

Some believe for a while, then fall away.

OSAS is unbiblical and false.

I can`t speak for Pete but in general I can probably agree with your remarks except for your conclusions.

Nothing you presented disproves OSAS. The prodical son was predestined, The good soil seed was predestined. It`s just a question of how saved can the non elect get. OSAS cannot be overthrown because the election cannot be overthrown.
 
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1an

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I can`t speak for Pete but in general I can probably agree with your remarks except for your conclusions.

Nothing you presented disproves OSAS. The prodical son was predestined, The good soil seed was predestined. It`s just a question of how saved can the non elect get. OSAS cannot be overthrown because the election cannot be overthrown.

In my own words, The elect of God have been chosen or predestined to serve Him. People are not elected at the beginning of time for salvation, but to serve God by fulfilling His predestined plan and purpose down the ages. Among the elect of God were Moses and Judas. They need to be the right person and in the right place, so that God's plan and purpose will be fulfilled here on earth. Mary the mother of Jesus was another, and dare I say it, Rahab the harlot. They are not necessarily elected of God for salvation, but to do His bidding. (Ian)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." (Eph. 1:4)

The New Testament words "chosen, choose, and election" are the same. The Old Testament word is simply "chosen." From the above Scripture many have felt that God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost. Again I want to point out that predestination and election (choosing) have nothing to do with the lost, but are for the saved.

From the following Scriptures we learn what the choosing, or election, of God is about:'' For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of him that calleth); It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Rom. 9:9-13).

At once we point out that election, or choosing, has to do with service; THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. It does not say, "The younger shall be saved, and the elder shall be lost." No, but simply, "the elder shall SERVE the younger." Thus choosing, or election, has to do with service. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" wasn't said of these two men before they were born, but hundreds of years after they died.

God hated the descendants of Esau because of their unbelief, and loved the descendants of Jacob because of their faith.

In the 15th chapter of John's Gospel, the Lord Jesus said that He had chosen (elected) them disciples. For salvation? No, for service. Even Judas was chosen! For damnation? No, but like Pharoh, who was a fit vessel unto wrath - after being given many chances to believe, refused, and thus was used for God's purpose.

The prophet Isaiah says that Israel is God's chosen people (Isaiah 41:8). Does this mean that all Jews are saved? No. It simply means that God has chosen Israel for a service. And we know what that service was: to give us the Word of God and to give us the Lord Jesus Christ!

The same prophet, Isaiah, says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Chosen Servant of God (Isaiah 42:1). Does this mean that God chose the Lord Jesus to be saved? Of course not! For He is the SAVIOUR! But God did choose His Son for a service - and that service was to be the Lamb of God who would die for the sins of the world. And He was the obedient Servant, being obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross!

Now back to the original text, as found in Ephesians 1:4. What has God elected or chosen us for? He has chosen us for service - "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."

Thus, we conclude that God does not predestinate or elect men to be saved or lost, but that salvation is on the basis of "WHOSOEVER WILL!"- "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).

by Dr. Mark G. Cambron,
Seaside Mission,
North Miami Beach, Florida
.
 
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In my own words, The elect of God have been chosen or predestined to serve Him. People are not elected at the beginning of time for salvation, but rather to serve God by fulfilling His predestined plan and purpose, among them were Moses and Judas. They need to be the right person for the work, and not necessarily approved of God for salvation. (Ian)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." (Eph. 1:4)

The New Testament words "chosen, choose, and election" are the same. The Old Testament word is simply "chosen." From the above Scripture many have felt that God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost. Again I want to point out that predestination and election (choosing) have nothing to do with the lost, but are for the saved.

From the following Scriptures we learn what the choosing, or election, of God is about:'' For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of him that calleth); It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Rom. 9:9-13).

At once we point out that election, or choosing, has to do with service; THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. It does not say, "The younger shall be saved, and the elder shall be lost." No, but simply, "the elder shall SERVE the younger." Thus choosing, or election, has to do with service. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" wasn't said of these two men before they were born, but hundreds of years after they died.

God hated the descendants of Esau because of their unbelief, and loved the descendants of Jacob because of their faith.

In the 15th chapter of John's Gospel, the Lord Jesus said that He had chosen (elected) them disciples. For salvation? No, for service. Even Judas was chosen! For damnation? No, but like Pharoh, who was a fit vessel unto wrath - after being given many chances to believe, refused, and thus was used for God's purpose.

The prophet Isaiah says that Israel is God's chosen people (Isaiah 41:8). Does this mean that all Jews are saved? No. It simply means that God has chosen Israel for a service. And we know what that service was: to give us the Word of God and to give us the Lord Jesus Christ!

The same prophet, Isaiah, says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Chosen Servant of God (Isaiah 42:1). Does this mean that God chose the Lord Jesus to be saved? Of course not! For He is the SAVIOUR! But God did choose His Son for a service - and that service was to be the Lamb of God who would die for the sins of the world. And He was the obedient Servant, being obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross!

Now back to the original text, as found in Ephesians 1:4. What has God elected or chosen us for? He has chosen us for service - "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."

Thus, we conclude that God does not predestinate or elect men to be saved or lost, but that salvation is on the basis of "WHOSOEVER WILL!"- "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth, say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).

by Dr. Mark G. Cambron,
Seaside Mission,
North Miami Beach, Florida
.

That`s an interesting argument. Thx.
 
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1an

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That`s an interesting argument. Thx.
Because of a simple misunderstanding we have all these needless arguments. May we all join together as one family in Christ, not to boast that one branch is better than other branches, but to remember, it is the root that sustains us all. Romans 11:18. Amen.
.
 
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A spurious belief? What would be the point of Christ telling us he fell away from a spurious belief? You are basically telling me Christ said he fell away from not being saved, and that is simply laughable.
It was a spurious belief in the first place or else he would not have permanently fallen away. IN CONTRAST with the good ground hearer. Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience/perseverance.

*See the difference? All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no results at all, but instead fall away before faith is firmly rooted and established were not truly converted. It happens all the time. People come to church and hear the gospel, then make an emotional response accompanied by a shallow, temporary belief, then may last anywhere from 2 months to 2 years, then leave church never to return. I have witnessed it myself on multiple occasions.

So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience/perseverance.

That no root, no fruit, lacks moisture, withers away = saved is laughable. Faith without works is dead = spurious belief. (James 2:14-18)
 
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