Gabriel, in Daniel 8, in Daniel 9, what vision, what transgression in Daniel 9:23-24?

mkgal1

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But the Jews and Jerusalem as a people has yet to embrace Jesus and the gospel of Salvation. The 70 weeks are still unfulfilled.
That was never promised or prophesied.

Romans 9:27
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Deuteronomy 28:62
You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left few in number, because you would not obey the voice of the LORD your God.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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This is critical to understand, because it means the 70 shmitahs of Daniel 9 are not yet complete.

In Daniel 8, within the overall vision that Daniel 8, is a specific vision of the 2300 days of the little horn's transgression of desolation, which Gabriel - himself with in the overall vision - stated was for the time of the end.

In Daniel 9, Gabriel appears to Daniel, but not within a vision like in Daniel 8. Gabriel gives Daniel straight talk in 9:24 regarding 70 shmitahs fortcoming.

It is generally agreed by all here in principle of the events leading up to the messiah cutoff in Daniel 9:26, which we all know to be Jesus. It is the confirming of the covenant for 7 years, what covenant by who, and if those 7 years are history, partially or fully, and if the entire 7 years are left - is where the disagreements are.

So lets look at Daniel 9:21-23...

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Daniel in Daniel 9 does not have a vision -like in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, said to be visions in the text and contains elements of metaphoric symbolism, like beasts, horns, he-goats, rams, leopard, bears, lion, etc.

So no vision in Daniel 9.

"Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning" in verse 21. The only vision that Daniel saw Gabriel "in" was in Daniel 8. "at the beginning" is just another way of saying when Daniel first saw Daniel, i.e. in the vision in Daniel 8.

So it is that vision, in Daniel 8. So what part of the vision is specific to the 70 shmitahs (weeks)?

Let's look at Daniel 9:24.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The transgression associated with the vision of the little horn is transgression of desolation by the little horn time of the end. That event spans elements over the course of 2300 days. Nearly 2520 days of a 7 year period.

The 2300 day vision and prophecy dealing with the little horn's transgression of desolation, time of the end.

From that we can know that he 70th shmitah is still unfulfilled. And completion of the 70th shmitah is still ahead. To be completed the day that Jesus Returns.


I don't pretend to have all the answers about symbolic visions, but visions in Daniel, Zechariah, and Revelation are very symbolic. I suggest that you compare Daniel, Matthew 24, and Revelation 20-22 as figurative representations of the absolute truth that Jesus is coming again.
 
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Timtofly

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The disciples seemed to relate the destruction of the Temple to the great tribulation Jeremiah spoke of
"Seems" and "definitely" are not the same thing. You would have thought at the end of "But he answered them, “You see all these? Yes! I tell you, they will be totally destroyed — not a single stone will be left standing!" there was a phrase that said, "and this was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by Titus".
 
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eleos1954

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This is critical to understand, because it means the 70 shmitahs of Daniel 9 are not yet complete.

In Daniel 8, within the overall vision that Daniel 8, is a specific vision of the 2300 days of the little horn's transgression of desolation, which Gabriel - himself with in the overall vision - stated was for the time of the end.

In Daniel 9, Gabriel appears to Daniel, but not within a vision like in Daniel 8. Gabriel gives Daniel straight talk in 9:24 regarding 70 shmitahs fortcoming.

It is generally agreed by all here in principle of the events leading up to the messiah cutoff in Daniel 9:26, which we all know to be Jesus. It is the confirming of the covenant for 7 years, what covenant by who, and if those 7 years are history, partially or fully, and if the entire 7 years are left - is where the disagreements are.

So lets look at Daniel 9:21-23...

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Daniel in Daniel 9 does not have a vision -like in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, said to be visions in the text and contains elements of metaphoric symbolism, like beasts, horns, he-goats, rams, leopard, bears, lion, etc.

So no vision in Daniel 9.

"Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning" in verse 21. The only vision that Daniel saw Gabriel "in" was in Daniel 8. "at the beginning" is just another way of saying when Daniel first saw Daniel, i.e. in the vision in Daniel 8.

So it is that vision, in Daniel 8. So what part of the vision is specific to the 70 shmitahs (weeks)?

Let's look at Daniel 9:24.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The transgression associated with the vision of the little horn is transgression of desolation by the little horn time of the end. That event spans elements over the course of 2300 days. Nearly 2520 days of a 7 year period.

The 2300 day vision and prophecy dealing with the little horn's transgression of desolation, time of the end.

From that we can know that he 70th shmitah is still unfulfilled. And completion of the 70th shmitah is still ahead. To be completed the day that Jesus Returns.



Which of course if the futurist interpretation.
 
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mkgal1

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Seems" and "definitely" are not the same thing. You would have thought at the end of "But he answered them, “You see all these? Yes! I tell you, they will be totally destroyed — not a single stone will be left standing!" there was a phrase that said, "and this was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by Titus".
The Gospels were written prior to the destruction....but Josephus wrote about the shattering of the apostate Israel.

Quoting from linked article:
Daniel was told that his prophecies concerned “the time of the end” for his people in Israel, and the complete shattering of their power (Daniel 12:7). That “time of the end” had come in John’s day, and therefore he wrote that “the time” was “at hand.” It was the end of the old covenant age, and the time for judgment upon adulterous, unfaithful Israel – a judgment which Jesus had so often predicted (e.g. Matthew 21:43-44, 22:7, 23:34-36, 24:1-51; Mark 13:1-37; Luke 17:20-37, 19:41-44, 21:5-36). This judgment was made complete during the Roman-Jewish War of 67-73 AD, and Josephus graphically recorded the shattering of national Israel in his book,The Wars of the Jews, published in 75AD.~ To Seal or Not to Seal the Book? (Daniel 12 Versus Revelation 22)
 
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Douggg

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That was never promised or prophesied.
The prophesy of the 70 weeks will be fulfilled regarding the Jews and Jerusalem. There is only one way to be saved, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified, raised from the dead on the third day.

The Jews as a people will come to believe in Jesus, and the gospel of Salvation during the 70th week. No-one knows the exact number.
 
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jgr

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The prophesy of the 70 weeks will be fulfilled regarding the Jews and Jerusalem. There is only one way to be saved, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified, raised from the dead on the third day.

The Jews as a people will come to believe in Jesus, and the gospel of Salvation during the 70th week. No-one knows the exact number.

To refresh our memories, what are the distinguishing characteristic(s) whereby we can identify "The Jews"?
 
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mkgal1

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The Jews as a people will come to believe in Jesus, and the gospel of Salvation during the 70th week. No-one knows the exact number.
This, I believe, is a false expectation that denies what God has already fuflilled.

This expectation overlooks all that's said about God's faithful remnant being saved from a particular "perverse, wicked, and corrupt generation" - the very generation that Jesus said would experience the wrath of "all the innocent blood shed since the foundation of the world":

Luke 11:29-30
As the crowds were increasing, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so the Son of Man will be a sign to this generation.

Luke 11:50
As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world

Matthew 17:17
"O unbelieving and perverse generation!" Jesus replied. "How long must I remain with you? How long must I put up with you?

Acts 2:40
With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation."

Philippians 2:15
..so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and perverse generation, in which you shine as lights in the world
Edited to add:
Daniel 12:1
“At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.


Remigius (437-533 AD) tells us this:
“[F]or on the approach of the Roman army, all the Christians in the province, warned, as ecclesiastical history tells us, miraculously from heaven, withdrew, and passing the Jordan, took refuge in the city of Pella; and under the protection of that King Agrippa, of whom we read in the Acts of the Apostles, they continued some time.” ~
" Catena Aurea. Commentary On The Four Gospels, Collected Out Of The Works Of The Fathers
 
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Timtofly

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How was the formation of our Church considered "failure"? How is Acts 2 ....."failure"?

Acts 2 - Gift of Holy Spirit
The church is not a fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks. The church was it's own body since Abel. The rest of Jesus' 7 years of earthly ministry are still to come. The prophecy was about the end of a period, with Jesus Christ working on earth. The Cross was just one aspect of the ministry.

Jews do not even accept Daniel as a prophet. If they did they would have a gap in a different place of the prophecy, or they would have accepted Jesus as the Christ. Since they did not accept Daniel as a prophet, it goes hand in hand of not accepting a Messiah at the proper time. Perhaps to some even Jesus claiming that Daniel was a prophet was in error.
 
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mkgal1

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The church is not a fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks. The church was it's own body since Abel.
Ephesians 2:15
He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.
 
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jgr

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The church is not a fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks. The church was it's own body since Abel. The rest of Jesus' 7 years of earthly ministry are still to come. The prophecy was about the end of a period, with Jesus Christ working on earth. The Cross was just one aspect of the ministry.

Jews do not even accept Daniel as a prophet. If they did they would have a gap in a different place of the prophecy, or they would have accepted Jesus as the Christ. Since they did not accept Daniel as a prophet, it goes hand in hand of not accepting a Messiah at the proper time. Perhaps to some even Jesus claiming that Daniel was a prophet was in error.

Jews reject Christ.

Of what validity are their opinions about Christ?
 
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Timtofly

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The Gospels were written prior to the destruction....but Josephus wrote about the shattering of the apostate Israel.

Quoting from linked article:
Daniel was told that his prophecies concerned “the time of the end” for his people in Israel, and the complete shattering of their power (Daniel 12:7). That “time of the end” had come in John’s day, and therefore he wrote that “the time” was “at hand.” It was the end of the old covenant age, and the time for judgment upon adulterous, unfaithful Israel – a judgment which Jesus had so often predicted (e.g. Matthew 21:43-44, 22:7, 23:34-36, 24:1-51; Mark 13:1-37; Luke 17:20-37, 19:41-44, 21:5-36). This judgment was made complete during the Roman-Jewish War of 67-73 AD, and Josephus graphically recorded the shattering of national Israel in his book,The Wars of the Jews, published in 75AD.~ To Seal or Not to Seal the Book? (Daniel 12 Versus Revelation 22)
There is no proof they were written before 70 AD. Nor were they complete, until after the fact. The 70 AD event could have been inserted as proof. Josephus was writing his works before and during Paul’s letters. Mark was the first "known" source of the Gospels. Mark was contemporary if not after Paul. 30 years after Jesus ascended cannot be claimed as a time where the Gospels were widely published, much less even in Jerusalem. 30 years is a relatively short time span even at that period of history. Jesus lived Himself for about 30 years, even before His baptism. 30 years on either side of a 3.5 year event, and it was only word of mouth information.

Very little would be in writing and no one knows the original source, writer, or what was written. It was not like the church at Jerusalem even had a copy of Jesus' Words written out. It burned in their hearts and they were spreading the Gospel all over the empire. If some fled because of the verbal warning why would they not have even mentioned that in the New Testament? Josephus mentions it, but God's Word is silent, in the aspect that the warning was heeded and fulfilled.
 
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Timtofly

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Ephesians 2:15
He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.
Does not mean the church was not already a group way before even Moses was born.
 
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Timtofly

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Jews reject Christ.

Of what validity are their opinions about Christ?
About as much validity as you give them in the OT. Daniel was a Jew. Did Daniel reject Christ? Your argument does not make sense. Some Jews even contemporary of Daniel rejected Daniel during the Babylonian captivity.
 
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jgr

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About as much validity as you give them in the OT. Daniel was a Jew. Did Daniel reject Christ? Your argument does not make sense. Some Jews even contemporary of Daniel rejected Daniel during the Babylonian captivity.

Daniel was a believing Jew.

Christ is rejected by unbelieving Jews.

Of what validity are the opinions of unbelieving Jews about Christ?
 
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