What do you think about speaking in tongues?

Albion said:

Meanwhile almost none of the members of other churches do any of this. If we were talking about a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit, it wouldn't be that way.

Click to expand...

That conclusion is based on your hyperbolic reading of 12:11, whereby you think free will has no bearing on the Spirit's sovereign distribution of the gifts (sort of a charismatic Calvinism), flatly contradicting the import of 12:31 and 14:1.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Another fallacious argument.

Its like saying I participate in many conversations but I do not know any language except for English. No oxymoron at all as you made that up.

Click to expand...

What's your point? That the angels spoke to Abraham in English? They only know one language? And since when is English not a language, which WAS part of my point?

Albion said:

LOL, you were the one who stated, unprompted, that spirits have physical bodies, not me.

Click to expand...

I said that angels are physical. You can now apologize for putting words in my mouth. Anytime now.

JAL said:

What's your point? That the angels spoke to Abraham in English? They only know one language? And since when is English not a language, which WAS part of my point?

Click to expand...

No Hebrew in his native language.

JAL said:

I said that angels are physical. You can now apologize for putting words in my mouth. Anytime now.

Click to expand...

angels are not spirits ?

Jesus is YHWH said:

angels are not spirits ?

Click to expand...

The concept of non-physical substance is a fairytale invented by the philosopher Plato.
In other words, the English term "spirit" is not a valid translation of the Hebrew and Greek. The biblical term is a physical term. I literally prove this fact on another thread (link provided earlier). Here's an example of scholarly support for this conclusion:

Lewis Sperry Chafer, president and founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, argued that angels are physical since “the term spirit…in both Hebrew and Greek is primarily a material term, indicating wind, air, or breath” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, “Angelology Part 1,” Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol 98:392 (1941), p. 401, Galaxie Software).

In that article Chafer named several church fathers who viewed angels as physical: Tertullian, Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, and Caesarius.

The only reason you don't see the obvious is 2,000 years of Platonic brainwashing.

In that same article Chafer seems to clearly imply that God is physical too. You can't blame him for being subtle on this point because one problem with the 'Sola Scriptura' theory (the assumption that Scripture is clear) is that the church tends to condemn anyone who disagrees with them.

JAL said:

The concept of non-physical substance is a fairytale invented by the philosopher Plato.
In other words, the English term "spirit" is not a valid translation of the Hebrew and Greek. The biblical term is a physical term. I literally prove this fact on another thread (link provided earlier). Here's an example of scholarly support for this conclusion:

Lewis Sperry Chafer, president and founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, argued that angels are physical since “the term spirit…in both Hebrew and Greek is primarily a material term, indicating wind, air, or breath” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, “Angelology Part 1,” Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol 98:392 (1941), p. 401, Galaxie Software).

In that article Chafer named several church fathers who viewed angels as physical: Tertullian, Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, and Caesarius.

The only reason you don't see the obvious is 2,000 years of Platonic brainwashing.

Click to expand...

Look Jesus was clear for He said:
Luke 24:39
a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. So I will side with Jesus not any theologian or anyone else as Jesus makes it clear regarding the nature of a spirit.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Look Jesus was clear for He said:
Luke 24:39
a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. So I will side with Jesus not any theologian or anyone else as Jesus makes it clear regarding the nature of a spirit.

Click to expand...

An angel does not have flesh, bones, protoplasm. The question is whether he is tangible.

Consider a block of steel. Does it have flesh, bones, and blood? No. But is it tangible/physical? Yes!

Jesus is YHWH said:

Look Jesus was clear for He said:
Luke 24:39
a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. So I will side with Jesus not any theologian or anyone else as Jesus makes it clear regarding the nature of a spirit.

Click to expand...

Jesus did NOT use the English word "spirit". He used the Greek word "pneuma" and the question is whether that is a physical term. Ever heard of pneumatic tools? Are they spirit-powered?

Often we keep our mouth closed but sometimes we open it, for example when speaking. Got a simple question for you, when you open your mouth, what normally emits from it?
(1) Immaterial spirits?
(2) Physical wind/breath?

You'd vote for #2, right? With that said, what do you suppose is the plain rendering of the following text?

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the Pneuma of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming" (2Tim 2:8)"

Recall that Plato had already begun brainwashing us 500 years prior to the NT. Otherwise, the unanimous rendering of this text would be "Breath" (a physical term) - any alternative translation would automatically be recognized as nonsense. We've been duped.

Albion said:

Very well, but that doesn't make the experience be something other than an emotional and physical reaction--as I said in my previous post.

Click to expand...

Nothing you have said anywhere makes my tongues an emotional and physical reaction.
I know my tongues are a gift of the spirit, just like the accurate visions or words of knowledge I've received have been a gift of the spirit.
In contrast, you are loudly pontificating from a vacuum.

Common sense should alert you to the fact when you know that the same thing CAN be taught and then considered genuine by other Pentecostal Christians, charismatics, etc.

Click to expand...

That is the silliest and most inane arguments I have heard!
I can still recall the utter garbage being taught at my local Anglican church 60 years ago, (which they all fell for). Using your logic, should I therefore also conclude that all Anglicans, including yourself, speak utter garbage?

Also that most of the people who join the typical Pentecostal congregation wind up speaking in tongues. They don't raise the dead, and very few of them claim to be able to heal cancer, but they all speak in tongues.

Click to expand...

So just because these churches don't raise the dead, tongue speakers are false?
You obviously can't hold a sensible argument together.

Meanwhile almost none of the members of other churches do any of this. If we were talking about a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit, it wouldn't be that way.

Click to expand...

This last sentence just shows how devoid of spiritual understanding you are.

Your negativity is a perfect illustration of why these other churches don't see the gift of tongues, and why these people didn't see what Jesus was doing elsewhere.-
Matt13v58Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Francis Drake said:

Nothing you have said anywhere makes my tongues an emotional and physical reaction.
I know my tongues are a gift of the spirit, just like the accurate visions or words of knowledge I've received have been a gift of the spirit..

Click to expand...

It doesn't bother me that you believe whatever you want to believe about it. All I did was answer you concerning the fact that there is another and better explanation.

Albion said:

It doesn't bother me that you believe whatever you want to believe about it. All I did was answer you concerning the fact that there is another and better explanation.

Click to expand...

Ah yes, the typical impasse has been reached yet once more.

Albion said:

It doesn't bother me that you believe whatever you want to believe about it. All I did was answer you concerning the fact that there is another and better explanation.

Click to expand...

So you have a better explanation, really?
I don't have a theory, I have experience, over 40 years of effective and powerful experience.

A few years ago, I was interceding for a church that was locked in a false doctrine. I had tried speaking to the leaders but to no avail.

I knew it was a doctrine of demons that was deceiving them, so after seeking Him, the Lord called me to enter a phase of spiritual warfare to tear down the demonic stronghold that controlled the church.

Each morning in my office, I would pray for the people concerned, and then start rebuking the ruling spirits behind that deception. In that warfare stage of my intercession, I simply resorted to attacking the demonic strong man using the gift of tongues. I don't know the words I spoke but by their tone they were very powerful and I pressed in the attack every day until I felt to stop.

This pattern of daily assault, as per Eph6, went on for several weeks and felt in my spirit as if I was battering against a castle entrance gate. Then one day, I was suddenly aware that resistance had collapsed, and something had shifted in the heavenly realm, and I was now pushing at an open door.
I knew I had the victory.

I quickly phoned the church leaders and asked if my wife and I could speak with them, which they surprisingly welcomed.
When we arrived and sat down, it was truly weird. It was as if they had no idea of their previous stance on the subject. Everything we presented to them was agreeably received. I might add that I had been subject to censure over these same things previously, so I knew perfectly what their previous stance had been on the subject.

The following evening church meeting, it was obvious there had been a complete change of atmosphere. The meeting was much more free in the Holy Spirit than on all previous occasions, and this despite the fact that the leaders had not even spoke to the church about their change of understanding.

The use of tongues on that occasion, and many others is an excellent long range artillery in the Holy Spirit, with directly related results.

As they say, a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with a mere theory!

Francis Drake said:

So you have a better explanation, really?
I don't have a theory, I have experience, over 40 years of effective and powerful experience.

Click to expand...

You have experience with some sort of speaking in tongues. You do not have any extraordinary knowledge when it comes to explaining what causes it. I suggested the most obvious answer when asked.

A few years ago, I was interceding for a church that was locked in a false doctrine. I had tried speaking to the leaders but to no avail...Each morning in my office, I would pray for the people concerned, and then start rebuking the ruling spirits behind that deception.

Click to expand...

Why cannot it be that praying was what brought results? We all agree that prayer is powerful; and the Bible leaves no doubt about that or about Jesus recommending it to his followers.

Thanks for taking the time to describe your dealings with the church leaders, which followed the above part.

Albion said:

You have experience with some sort of speaking in tongues. You do not have any extraordinary knowledge when it comes to explaining what causes it..

Click to expand...

We don't need any EXTRAordinary knowledge to explain tongues, just scripture which states categorically that it is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I suggested the most obvious answer when asked

Click to expand...

No, your suggested answer is generated by your rampant unbelief.

Why cannot it be that praying was what brought results?

Click to expand...

Because it wasn't my praying that brought results, it was my direct confrontational attack on the demons using the gift of tongues that brought results.

And praying about demons instead of casting them out contradicts scripture!

We all agree that prayer is powerful;

Click to expand...

Of course prayer is usually powerful, but not when it contradicts Jesus's commands.

and the Bible leaves no doubt about that or about Jesus recommending it to his followers.

Click to expand...

But Jesus never ever recommended prayer for casting demons out, quite the opposite in fact.
Clearly you have no understanding of spiritual warfare. Eph6 commands that we put on the whole armour of God, because we will be the ones confronting those demons.

God will not do things that He has already commanded us to do, no matter how much praying you do. Paul discovered that with his thorn in the flesh!
Jesus instructed us to directly confront and drive them out by command, not whining to God that he does it for us.

Francis Drake said:

We don't need any EXTRAordinary knowledge to explain tongues

Click to expand...

Nor is that necessary when noting that they can be produced by ordinary physical and emotional reactions.

But to believe, on the other hand, that they absolutely must be the work of the Holy Spirit, and without any doubt...now that is to go for the "extraordinary" interpretation.

Albion said:

Nor is that necessary when noting that they can be produced by ordinary physical and emotional reactions.

But to believe, on the other hand, that they are the work of the Holy Spirit, absolutely and without any doubt...now that is to go for the "extraordinary!"

Click to expand...

Tongues should rate as fairly ordinary for all Christians.

Albion said:

Nor is that necessary when noting that they can be produced by ordinary physical and emotional reactions.

But to believe, on the other hand, that they absolutely must be the work of the Holy Spirit, and without any doubt...now that is to go for the "extraordinary" interpretation.

Click to expand...

Depends on whether we are testifying of our own experience. Admittedly I should be cautious about vouching for someone else's experience.

Let's put this into perspective. Suppose you felt a painful slap in the face but didn't see anyone. At this point you might turn around to see if someone is standing behind you. Here's what you would most certainly NOT conclude:

Albion said:

[This] can be produced by ordinary physical and emotional reactions.

Click to expand...

See the problem here? If you feel a distinct Presence physically push itself into your body and down your throat, forming unfamiliar syllables in your vocal cords, the "Albion explanation" would seem completely irrational.

Of course it could be a deceiver - anything is possible - but if it's a multi-faceted revelation, that is, one that exalts the biblical God in your own mind and heart by revealing His love, joy, peace, and Presence to a persuasive degree, you won't be able to infer deception. You WILL conclude it is the Lord enduing you with glossolalia.

JAL said:

Depends on whether we are testifying of our own experience. Admittedly I should be cautious about vouching for someone else's experience.

Click to expand...

It doesn't change, no matter whose experience is being discussed.