Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

Timtofly · Oct 20, 2020

iamlamad said:
1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

YOU have a body that people see. YOU have a spirit inside, the "inward man" that only God sees. That spirit is the REAL YOU. It is different from all other spirits because your spirit thinks different thoughts, has different memories, has different soulish characteristics. Remember, the only thing that can separate soul and spirit is the word of God. But the LIFE is the spirit.

LIFE is the spirit. That is why our spirit is with God and not part of sinful fallen human flesh. Flesh is Death. This current condition is death. Those on earth are dead. God through the Holy Spirit is the only means making this dead life a living one. The spirit with God, mirrors what we do in the flesh. If we give glory to God on earth, the spirit bears witness to God in heaven that glory.

iamlamad · Oct 21, 2020

Timtofly said:
LIFE is the spirit. That is why our spirit is with God and not part of sinful fallen human flesh. Flesh is Death. This current condition is death. Those on earth are dead. God through the Holy Spirit is the only means making this dead life a living one. The spirit with God, mirrors what we do in the flesh. If we give glory to God on earth, the spirit bears witness to God in heaven that glory.

If you were speaking of the dead in Christ, you would be correct: their spirits ARE with God. Since your spirit is what gives LIFE to your body, your spirit is still inside your body.

Those on earth (other than born agian ones) are dead SPIRITUALLY, but if they are up and walking, they are alive Physically. This is not rocket science.

I suspect you are not going to change your mind until you leave your body (if the Lord taries) and discover YOU are a spirit being.

Timtofly · Oct 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
If you were speaking of the dead in Christ, you would be correct: their spirits ARE with God. Since your spirit is what gives LIFE to your body, your spirit is still inside your body.

Those on earth (other than born agian ones) are dead SPIRITUALLY, but if they are up and walking, they are alive Physically. This is not rocket science.

I suspect you are not going to change your mind until you leave your body (if the Lord taries) and discover YOU are a spirit being.

The air we breath gives us life. This is not our body. We have to crucify it each day. Putting God's "our spirit" part of us in a dead body does not give it life. The Holy Spirit gives this sinful flesh life, and the flesh hates that fact. Our mind and emotions (soul) is how we deal with that conflict.

iamlamad · Oct 21, 2020

Timtofly said:
The air we breath gives us life. This is not our body. We have to crucify it each day. Putting God's "our spirit" part of us in a dead body does not give it life. The Holy Spirit gives this sinful flesh life, and the flesh hates that fact. Our mind and emotions (soul) is how we deal with that conflict.

The air we breath SUSTAINS our life, as does our heart and blood. But the SOURCE of our life is the spirit man within us.

Did you ever wonder, when the disciples of John as Jesus why his disciples did not fast, he told a strange parable?

16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Can you just picture those disciples thanking Jesus and walking away saying to each other, "what on earth does a piece of new cloth and new wine have to do with fasting?

Where does the "new wine" of the Holy Spirit go? In our bodies or in our spirit man inside? Of course God would never put His Holy Spirit into an Adam spirit separated from Him. He had to create NEW BOTTLES to contain the Holy Spirit. But sadly, that NEW SPIRIT MAN has to stay in the old flesh. The old flesh filled with memories of sin. Garments go on the outside, representing our bodies.

How do we weaken the flesh and strengthen the spirit at the same time? We FAST. After all these posts you still don't understand the human spirit - and you ARE one!

Timtofly · Oct 21, 2020

iamlamad said:
The air we breath SUSTAINS our life, as does our heart and blood. But the SOURCE of our life is the spirit man within us.

Did you ever wonder, when the disciples of John as Jesus why his disciples did not fast, he told a strange parable?

16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Can you just picture those disciples thanking Jesus and walking away saying to each other, "what on earth does a piece of new cloth and new wine have to do with fasting?

Where does the "new wine" of the Holy Spirit go? In our bodies or in our spirit man inside? Of course God would never put His Holy Spirit into an Adam spirit separated from Him. He had to create NEW BOTTLES to contain the Holy Spirit. But sadly, that NEW SPIRIT MAN has to stay in the old flesh. The old flesh filled with memories of sin. Garments go on the outside, representing our bodies.

How do we weaken the flesh and strengthen the spirit at the same time? We FAST. After all these posts you still don't understand the human spirit - and you ARE one!

The bottles were empty, no spirit at all....

iamlamad · Oct 22, 2020

Timtofly said:
The bottles were empty, no spirit at all....

"New wine' [the Holy Spirit] had to go into NEW bottles [the newly created human spirits of the born again].
Imagine the Holy Spirit of God going into an Adam spirit separated from God. He would destroy the human spirit filled with sin. It would end up a sieve, rather than a temple.

Timtofly · Oct 22, 2020

iamlamad said:
"New wine' [the Holy Spirit] had to go into NEW bottles [the newly created human spirits of the born again].
Imagine the Holy Spirit of God going into an Adam spirit separated from God. He would destroy the human spirit filled with sin. It would end up a sieve, rather than a temple.

Why would I imagine something that is not a reality? I can not imagine any wine to be poured into wine. Wine is poured into a vessel, not itself. The vessel is empty, no spirit at all. But when God fixes the vessel, it can hold the Holy Spirit.

iamlamad · Oct 22, 2020

Timtofly said:
Why would I imagine something that is not a reality? I can not imagine any wine to be poured into wine. Wine is poured into a vessel, not itself. The vessel is empty, no spirit at all. But when God fixes the vessel, it can hold the Holy Spirit.

Since you have this all figured out, explain Jesus' parable in relationship to fasting. That was his subject.

18 And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.

22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

The meaning is simple: God was wise enough to know that He would have to recreate NEW HUMAN SPIRITS to contain the "New Wine," the Holy Spirit.

In the physical realm, new wine can certainly burst bottles! While in Germany, someone gave us a bottle of new wine. We set it on the table and went to sleep. In the night, an explosion! The new wine was lost. Not a square inch of wall did not have spatters of wine. The bottle exploded, exactly as Jesus said would happen in His parable.

Jesus was not really talking of the natural; He was using the natural to explain the spiritual: the born again experience. God had to create new wineskins or new human spirits.

Timtofly · Oct 23, 2020

iamlamad said:
Since you have this all figured out, explain Jesus' parable in relationship to fasting. That was his subject.

18 And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.

22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

The meaning is simple: God was wise enough to know that He would have to recreate NEW HUMAN SPIRITS to contain the "New Wine," the Holy Spirit.

In the physical realm, new wine can certainly burst bottles! While in Germany, someone gave us a bottle of new wine. We set it on the table and went to sleep. In the night, an explosion! The new wine was lost. Not a square inch of wall did not have spatters of wine. The bottle exploded, exactly as Jesus said would happen in His parable.

Jesus was not really talking of the natural; He was using the natural to explain the spiritual: the born again experience. God had to create new wineskins or new human spirits.

Fasting is denying the flesh. Paul went even further and told us to crucify it. The flesh is constantly in the way of the Holy Spirit.

As for your interpretation, it is adding to God's Word, human understanding, outside of reality.

claninja · Oct 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I know you never spoke to me, but I'm also butting in to answer:

No worries

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
True, but does not preclude saints being martyred by the beast ascended out of the abyss during the 42 months preceding the Lord's return.

I don't think there is any disagreement that the saints of the body of Christ will face persecution and suffering prior to and even during 42 months leading up to the parousia of Christ.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
When Nero was turning Christian into torches, there was a period of great tribulation for the saints. When ISIS beheads Christians, it's tribulation. When Boko Haram are burning churches in Nigeria, it's tribulation for Christians. Jesus told us we will have tribulation in this world.

Agreed, which demonstrates that the persecution of the saints of the body of Christ is not confined to a literal 3.5 years.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
So when Amil states that the great tribulation period is the period in-between the first 3.5 years following the Lord's death and resurrection of Christ and His return, they are partially correct.

Ok

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Amil has the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Christ and refusal to worship the beast which ascended from the abyss, happening at the beginning of a symbolic thousand years, because it has to fit with a symbolic thousand years - which does not begin chronologically after the beast ascended out of the abyss (per Amil).

1.) the millennium represents the time between the 1st advent and 2nd advent of Christ in Amil theology

2.) the souls of the beheaded and those that do not worship the beast reign with Christ throughout this intradvent period, not only at the beginning.

3.) Amils often associate the beast that ascends from the abyss as parallel to satan rising out of the abyss at the end of the 1,000 years.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Well, without trying to change your opinion on that (I know I can't), may I say that I cannot understand how yourself (or any Amils) could possibly come to such a conclusion. The Jews and their leaders are not the nations. The prophecy had a partial fulfillment but it's not the ultimate fulfillment of it, in the same way that Elijah shall come, but John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah.

I never stated the Jews and their leaders were the nations, so I cannot understand how you came to that conclusion.

What is clear according to Acts 4, is that the nations raging and plotting, and the kings of the earth and rulers gathering together against Jesus (Psalm 2:1-2), is fulfilled in Herod, pilate, the gentiles, and the jews crucifying Christ. Therefore, by using scripture to interpret scripture, I would argue Revelation 19's allusion to psalm 2:1-2 should be interpreted as the Church interpreted it in Acts 4: the crucifixion.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

Acts 4:25-29
who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,d said by the Holy Spirit,
“‘Why did the Gentiles rage and the peoples plot in vain?The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against his Anointed’e
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness,

I believe Revelation 19:19 wholly fulfilled at the cross. However, this does not mean the verses 20-21 are not future to the cross. This would be similar to how the OT prophets made no distinction between the 1st and 2nd comings of Christ.

In regards to your point on Elijah only being "partially fulfilled", I would disagree. Jesus clearly stated John the Baptist was the Elijah who was to come. There is no further teaching in the NT of a future coming of Elijah.

Matthew 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.g

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Because Revelation 11 & 13, and Daniel 7 confines it to 3.5 years.

Your interpretation of those passages confines them to a literal 3.5 years. However, the Gospels and epistles do not confine the persecution and suffering of the saints to only 3.5 literal years. Therefore, I disagree with your interpretation of those passages.

The saints were already facing suffering and persecution in the 1st century. They were waiting for the 2nd coming which would grant relief to them from their persecution.

Are the saints of Thessalonica still waiting for God to grant relief to them from their sufferings and persecutions?

2 thessalonians 2:4-8 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The same passages states that the beast being spoken of existed ("was") at a time before John received the Revelation, did not exit ("was not") at the time John received the Revelation, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to perdition.

part of it did exist when John wrote revelation as the angel told him one of the heads/kings "is".

Revelation 17:10 Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
1. Revelation 13 states will make war with the saints and overcome them; and that
2. Revelation 11 states will make war with the two witnesses, overcome them and kill them when they have completed their testimony (which Revelation 11 states will take place 3 1/2 days before the resurrection); and
3. It's the same beast that the Revelation 17 states will hate the city the Revelation calls a "harlot" and "Babylon the Great", and will "render her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire"; and
4. It's the same beast that Revelation 17 states will make war against the Lamb and be overcome by Him; and
5. It's the same beast that Revelation 16 states will gather it's armies together for the battle of Armageddon; and i
6. It's the same beast that Revelation 19 shows Christ coming down with His armies to defeat; and
7. It's the same beast that the Revelation says will then be cast into the lake of fire with its false prophet.

Agreed

Zao is life · Oct 24, 2020

STATEMENTS POINTING AWAY
FROM THE NOTION OF A LITERAL ONE-THOUSAND YEAR PERIOD

There are a number of statements in the New Testament which seem to point away from the notion of a literal thousand years following the return of Christ. Let's take a look at the one which is chief among them:

2 Peter chapter 3
Verse 10: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away (παρέρχομαι parérchomai) with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt (λύω lýō) with fervent heat (καυσόω kausóō). And the earth and the works (ἔργον érgon) in it will be burned (κατακαίω katakaíō) up."

Looking at the Greek words and their meaning, 2 Peter 3:10 could just as well be translated,

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will approach, being accompanied with a rushing noise, and ordered things will be loosed and broken up with fervent heat. And the earth and the deeds in it will be burned to the ground, utterly consumed."

In Matthew's gospel we read:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven,

and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

In the Revelation we read:-

"And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.

And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:12-17)

In Luke's gospel we read:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

men fainting from fear, and expecting those things which have come on the earth. For the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." (Luke 21:25-28).

Is this use of language hyperbole (which is so typical in prophetic scripture throughout the Bible), or should the verse be taken literally? OR: Is this talking about the deeds of the inhabitants of the nations that will be burned up?

To my understanding of all this, the idea that the one-thousand years is not literal seems to be in stark contrast to the idea expressed in many other passages of scripture, for example, the extract below, which is from a passage which prophesies of a day when the armies of all nations have gathered against Jerusalem, and the LORD sets His feet on the Mount of Olives and fights against the nations that had come against Jerusalem - the passage speaks of a golden age to follow, in which the LORD is "King over all the earth, and He shall be One, and His name, One", and the nations are going up from year to year "to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.":

"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." (Zechariah 14:12).

The Revelation speaks of the Lord's defeat of the beast and its armies, and their destruction in the lake of fire burning with brimstone, and the binding of Satan for a one-thousand year period in the day "the Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15).

-----------------------------------------------------

Those who take this golden age up literally, will view Peter's mention of the deeds of the world being burned up, as referring either to the deeds of the nations being burned up, or as being hyperbole (and therefore symbolic of the Lord's defeat of the beast and its destruction in the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone").

Those who take Peter's words regarding "the earth and all its deeds being burned up" literally, will view the golden age or one-thousand year period as being symbolic of the entire age in-between the Day of Pentecost and the return of Christ, with no literal golden age to follow the Lord's return.

This thread has shown that personally, I believe the Biblical evidence for each position has the scale tipping in favour of a literal golden age following the Lord's return.

I could be wrong.

However, what follows below is a list of some of my comparisons of scripture with scripture. I'm not going to comment on them, because the comparisons listed below speak for themselves:-

--------------------------------------------------

OLD TESTAMENT PROMISE TO THE SON OF MAN
REGARDING ALL THINGS BEING PLACED UNDER HIS FEET

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.

And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth."
(Genesis 1:26-28)

"What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honour.

You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas."
(Psalm 8:4-8)

NEW TESTAMENT STATEMENT REGARDING THE ABOVE

"You have subjected all things under his feet." For in order that He put all things under him, He did not leave anything not subjected.

But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") we see not yet all things having been put under him."
(Hebrews 2:8)

On the Day of Pentecost, tongues of fire came down upon the believers. The church-age had begun.

We read in the Revelation that on the day that Satan's Gog-Magog rebellion is destroyed (at the close of the one-thousand year period), fire will come down from heaven and devour the armies which have gathered against the camp of the saints.

Whether or not Christians believe that the thousand-year period is literal and is to follow the return of Christ, we all believe that fire will come down from heaven and destroy those who take part in the Gog-Magog rebellion and the close of the one-thousand year period.

END

I apologise to all Amillennials who I may have become abrasive towards when things became heated in this thread.

BABerean2 · Oct 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
STATEMENTS POINTING AWAY
FROM THE NOTION OF A LITERAL ONE-THOUSAND YEAR PERIOD

There are a number of statements in the New Testament which seem to point away from the notion of a literal thousand years following the return of Christ. Let's take a look at the one which is chief among them:

2 Peter chapter 3
Verse 10: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away (παρέρχομαι parérchomai) with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt (λύω lýō) with fervent heat (καυσόω kausóō). And the earth and the works (ἔργον érgon) in it will be burned (κατακαίω katakaíō) up."

Looking at the Greek words and their meaning, 2 Peter 3:10 could just as well be translated,

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will approach, being accompanied with a rushing noise, and ordered things will be loosed and broken up with fervent heat. And the earth and the deeds in it will be burned to the ground, utterly consumed."

In Matthew's gospel we read:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven,

and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

In the Revelation we read:-

"And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.

And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:12-17)

In Luke's gospel we read:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

men fainting from fear, and expecting those things which have come on the earth. For the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." (Luke 21:25-28).

Is this use of language hyperbole (which is so typical in prophetic scripture throughout the Bible), or should the verse be taken literally? OR: Is this talking about the deeds of the inhabitants of the nations that will be burned up?

To my understanding of all this, the idea that the one-thousand years is not literal seems to be in stark contrast to the idea expressed in many other passages of scripture, for example, the extract below, which is from a passage which prophesies of a day when the armies of all nations have gathered against Jerusalem, and the LORD sets His feet on the Mount of Olives and fights against the nations that had come against Jerusalem - the passage speaks of a golden age to follow, in which the LORD is "King over all the earth, and He shall be One, and His name, One", and the nations are going up from year to year "to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.":

"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." (Zechariah 14:12).

The Revelation speaks of the Lord's defeat of the beast and its armies, and their destruction in the lake of fire burning with brimstone, and the binding of Satan for a one-thousand year period in the day "the Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15).

-----------------------------------------------------

Those who take this golden age up literally, will view Peter's mention of the deeds of the world being burned up, as referring either to the deeds of the nations being burned up, or as being hyperbole (and therefore symbolic of the Lord's defeat of the beast and its destruction in the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone").

Those who take Peter's words regarding "the earth and all its deeds being burned up" literally, will view the golden age or one-thousand year period as being symbolic of the entire age in-between the Day of Pentecost and the return of Christ, with no literal golden age to follow the Lord's return.

This thread has shown that personally, I believe the Biblical evidence for each position has the scale tipping in favour of a literal golden age following the Lord's return.

I could be wrong.

However, what follows below is a list of some of my comparisons of scripture with scripture. I'm not going to comment on them, because the comparisons listed below speak for themselves:-

--------------------------------------------------

OLD TESTAMENT PROMISE TO THE SON OF MAN
REGARDING ALL THINGS BEING PLACED UNDER HIS FEET

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.

And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth."
(Genesis 1:26-28)

"What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honour.

You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas."
(Psalm 8:4-8)

NEW TESTAMENT STATEMENT REGARDING THE ABOVE

"You have subjected all things under his feet." For in order that He put all things under him, He did not leave anything not subjected.

But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") we see not yet all things having been put under him."
(Hebrews 2:8)

On the Day of Pentecost, tongues of fire came down upon the believers. The church-age had begun.

We read in the Revelation that on the day that Satan's Gog-Magog rebellion is destroyed (at the close of the one-thousand year period), fire will come down from heaven and devour the armies which have gathered against the camp of the saints.

Whether or not Christians believe that the thousand-year period is literal and is to follow the return of Christ, we all believe that fire will come down from heaven and destroy those who take part in the Gog-Magog rebellion and the close of the one-thousand year period.

END

I apologise to all Amillennials who I may have become abrasive towards when things became heated in this thread.

Thank you for the above. Humility is rare on this forum, and is greatly appreciated.

How do you square what Paul said about the Old Covenant feasts in Colossian 2:16-17, with the idea Christians will be celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles?

Could this be a reference to Christ as the "tabernacle" and the Lord's Supper as the "feast" we will celebrate with Him at His return?

Christ celebrated the Passover meal several times with His disciples, in the tradition the Jews held for thousands of years.
However, the last time it would be different. This time He revealed to them the tradition had been a shadow of the New Covenant to be fulfilled by His blood.

.

DavidPT · Oct 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
How do you square what Paul said about the Old Covenant feasts in Colossian 2:16-17, with the idea Christians will be celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles?

Regardless when it is meaning, whether in this age, or the next age, it is still meaning a time post the events recorded in verse 2 of Zechariah 14. Clearly, verse 2 is meaning a time post the birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. So, why is it that Amils find this part problematic if after the 2nd coming , but don't also find this equally problematic if before the 2nd coming?

BTW, why do Amils, such as you, keep insisting that it is Christians who are supposed to come up year after year, or no rain? Can you not see that it is the survivors remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem being the ones required to come up, or else? Why would Christians be getting threatened with no rain if they refuse to come up?

As to the feasts, the Spring feasts, Christ fulfilled them in their correct season and correct order. It only stands to reason that He fulfills the remaining Fall feasts in their correct season and correct order as well. And since the Spring feasts never involved animal sacrificing when Christ fulfilled these, then neither will the feast of tabernacles involve animal sacrificing when it is fulfilled, even if it's meaning after the 2nd coming.

iamlamad · Oct 24, 2020

Timtofly said:
Fasting is denying the flesh. Paul went even further and told us to crucify it. The flesh is constantly in the way of the Holy Spirit.

As for your interpretation, it is adding to God's Word, human understanding, outside of reality.

I ask before, for YOu to explain it. If you know I am mistaken, then you must know the truth - therefore tell us what new cloth on old cloth and new wine must go into new bottles has to do with fasting.

claninja · Oct 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
the passage speaks of a golden age to follow, in which the LORD is "King over all the earth, and He shall be One, and His name, One", and the nations are going up from year to year "to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

When going through the OT prophets, the first thing I like to remember, is that God spoke to the them through visions/riddles/dreams/parables, and NOT in clear language like He did with Moses.

Numbers 12:6-8 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. But this is not so with My servant Moses;
he is faithful in all My house.a I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles;he sees the form of the LORD.

Hosea 12:10 spoke through the prophets and multiplied their visions; I gave parables through the prophets.

So when we come to Zechariah, we should remember this is a vision/riddle/dream/parable, and NOT necessarily clear language like what was spoken to Moses.

Therefore, it is through the gospels and epistles that I interpret the parabolic language of the prophets:

1.) The NT declares the living waters is the receiving of the Spirit following the glorification of Christ:

zechariah 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Seab and the other half toward the Western Sea,c in summer and winter alike

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

2.) At Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension to the Father, He was/is/and will be king over all the earth in all ages.

Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

ephesians 1:21-22 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

3.) The feasts of Israel, including the feast of Booths, is only a shadow of Christ not the reality. Therefore, IMHO, Zechariah is not pointing toward people literally partaking in the feast of booths, but to Christ, to whom the substance of the feasts belongs to. Otherwise, Paul is directly contradicting zechariah 14.

zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

colossians Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

4.) Was Jesus directly contradicting the message as found in zechariah 14:7, by claiming a time was coming when they would no longer need to worship in Jerusalem? I don't think so. I believe that the parabolic language of Zechariah 14 is pointing to the heavenly Jerusalem, the new covenant, to which the Body of Christ now comes to.

zechariah 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

John 4:21-23 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

I agree with Eusebius (265-339ad) on his commentary on zechariah 14:

" And which were the days after the age of Zechariah, when the spoils of Jerusalem were divided, and all nations were gathered against them in battle, and the city was taken, their houses looted, their women defiled, and they themselves led into captivity, while the Lord was at the same time aiding the nations warring against Jerusalem and drawn up against them? Or when did His feet stand (b) on the Mount of Olives? Or when was the Lord King of all the earth, when was there one Lord over all men, when did His Name encircle the whole earth and the wilderness? It is impossible to argue that this was fulfilled previously to the period of the Romans, in whose time the Jewish Temple was burnt for the second time after its destruction by the Babylonians, and their city from then till now has been inhabited by foreign nations.

And it was when our Lord Jesus, the Christ of God, had (c) visited the olive-grove over against Jerusalem, since the words of the prophecy were fulfilled which said, "His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives opposite to Jerusalem," that is, the life of holiness having been established |147 throughout all the world, that all the nations, according to the prophecy, kept the Feast of Tabernacles together in every place to the God of the prophets, and the Egyptians from that time recognizing God erected tents in every town and country place, which mean the local Christian Churches. For the power of our Saviour Jesus Christ has pegged them (d) far better than Moses' tents through the whole world, so that every race of men and all the Gentiles may keep their Feast of Tabernacles to Almighty God.

When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our own day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, (413) the Christ of God, has come, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated to have been clearly fulfilled" (Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica.book 8, chapter 4).

Christian Gedge · Oct 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
STATEMENTS POINTING AWAY
FROM THE NOTION OF A LITERAL ONE-THOUSAND YEAR PERIOD

There are a number of statements in the New Testament which seem to point away from the notion of a literal thousand years following the return of Christ. Let's take a look at the one which is chief among them:

2 Peter chapter 3
Verse 10: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away (παρέρχομαι parérchomai) with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt (λύω lýō) with fervent heat (καυσόω kausóō). And the earth and the works (ἔργον érgon) in it will be burned (κατακαίω katakaíō) up."

Looking at the Greek words and their meaning, 2 Peter 3:10 could just as well be translated,

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will approach, being accompanied with a rushing noise, and ordered things will be loosed and broken up with fervent heat. And the earth and the deeds in it will be burned to the ground, utterly consumed."

In Matthew's gospel we read:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven,

and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

In the Revelation we read:-

"And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.

And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.

And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:12-17)

In Luke's gospel we read:

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

men fainting from fear, and expecting those things which have come on the earth. For the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." (Luke 21:25-28).

Is this use of language hyperbole (which is so typical in prophetic scripture throughout the Bible), or should the verse be taken literally? OR: Is this talking about the deeds of the inhabitants of the nations that will be burned up?

To my understanding of all this, the idea that the one-thousand years is not literal seems to be in stark contrast to the idea expressed in many other passages of scripture, for example, the extract below, which is from a passage which prophesies of a day when the armies of all nations have gathered against Jerusalem, and the LORD sets His feet on the Mount of Olives and fights against the nations that had come against Jerusalem - the passage speaks of a golden age to follow, in which the LORD is "King over all the earth, and He shall be One, and His name, One", and the nations are going up from year to year "to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.":

"And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." (Zechariah 14:12).

The Revelation speaks of the Lord's defeat of the beast and its armies, and their destruction in the lake of fire burning with brimstone, and the binding of Satan for a one-thousand year period in the day "the Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 11:15).

-----------------------------------------------------

Those who take this golden age up literally, will view Peter's mention of the deeds of the world being burned up, as referring either to the deeds of the nations being burned up, or as being hyperbole (and therefore symbolic of the Lord's defeat of the beast and its destruction in the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone").

Those who take Peter's words regarding "the earth and all its deeds being burned up" literally, will view the golden age or one-thousand year period as being symbolic of the entire age in-between the Day of Pentecost and the return of Christ, with no literal golden age to follow the Lord's return.

This thread has shown that personally, I believe the Biblical evidence for each position has the scale tipping in favour of a literal golden age following the Lord's return.

I could be wrong.

However, what follows below is a list of some of my comparisons of scripture with scripture. I'm not going to comment on them, because the comparisons listed below speak for themselves:-

--------------------------------------------------

OLD TESTAMENT PROMISE TO THE SON OF MAN
REGARDING ALL THINGS BEING PLACED UNDER HIS FEET

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.

And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth."
(Genesis 1:26-28)

"What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honour.

You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas."
(Psalm 8:4-8)

NEW TESTAMENT STATEMENT REGARDING THE ABOVE

"You have subjected all things under his feet." For in order that He put all things under him, He did not leave anything not subjected.

But now (Greek: nun, "of present time") we see not yet all things having been put under him."
(Hebrews 2:8)

On the Day of Pentecost, tongues of fire came down upon the believers. The church-age had begun.

We read in the Revelation that on the day that Satan's Gog-Magog rebellion is destroyed (at the close of the one-thousand year period), fire will come down from heaven and devour the armies which have gathered against the camp of the saints.

Whether or not Christians believe that the thousand-year period is literal and is to follow the return of Christ, we all believe that fire will come down from heaven and destroy those who take part in the Gog-Magog rebellion and the close of the one-thousand year period.

END

I apologise to all Amillennials who I may have become abrasive towards when things became heated in this thread.

Thanks FOTG. The Internet is a strange social environment where our usual etiquette is often lost as we try to explain things we believe in.

So, I suppose I'd better apologise for my little jabby ways too. OK, sorry. :sorry:

Zao is life · Oct 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Thank you for the above. Humility is rare on this forum, and is greatly appreciated.

How do you square what Paul said about the Old Covenant feasts in Colossian 2:16-17, with the idea Christians will be celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles?

Could this be a reference to Christ as the "tabernacle" and the Lord's Supper as the "feast" we will celebrate with Him at His return?

Christ celebrated the Passover meal several times with His disciples, in the tradition the Jews held for thousands of years.
However, the last time it would be different. This time He revealed to them the tradition had been a shadow of the New Covenant to be fulfilled by His blood.
.

I agree with what David PT said in Post #893. If Christ is among us, then God is tabernacled among us. His body is the temple. The Feast of Tabernacles spoken of in Zechariah 14 is all about that, IMO. There will be no sacrifices forming part of the Feast of Tabernacles.

I also understand what you said, and for this reason, I ask if you have ever considered that instead of the Church after the apostles' time inventing a holiday that was unknown to the apostles (Christmas), the Church could have started an annual Feast of Tabernacles in remembrance of when Christ was tabernacled among us, in anticipation of the return of Christ (and in anticipation of the day when God and the Lamb will be the Temple in the new heavens and earth), and in acknowledgement of the fact that the church is the Tabernacle of God in the age in-between?

If the Church could take upon itself to invent an entirely new feast (and other entirely new appointed times - St , This day and St. That day), why can't Jesus re institute the Feast of Tabernacles after He has returned, and His enemies have been thrown alive into the lake of fire?

So I believe that this is why we see Zechariah mentioning the Feast of Tabernacles - and the Feast of Tabernacles only - absolutely no mention is made in the passage of the nations coming up year to year for any other appointed time - have you ever considered why?

BUT the passage does not tell us what I have just said, nor does the passage give any reason for the nations having to come up from year to year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles or have no rain - it simply tells us what it tells us, and no more.

So we are speculating as to reasons - but your suggestion as to the reason, as far as I can see, is on the same track as mine, regardless of whether or not the the thousand years is literal.

Zao is life · Oct 24, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Thanks FOTG. The Internet is a strange social environment where our usual etiquette is often lost as we try to explain things we believe in.

So, I suppose I'd better apologise for my little jabby ways too. OK, sorry.

I never picked up any jabby ways coming from you, but thanks

BABerean2 · Oct 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I agree with what David PT said in Post #893. If Christ is among us, then God is tabernacled among us. His body is the temple. The Feast of Tabernacles spoken of in Zechariah 14 is all about that, IMO. There will be no sacrifices forming part of the Feast of Tabernacles.

I also understand what you said, and for this reason, I ask if you have ever considered that instead of the Church after the apostles' time inventing a holiday that was unknown to the apostles (Christmas), the Church could have started an annual Feast of Tabernacles in remembrance of when Christ was tabernacled among us, in anticipation of the return of Christ (and in anticipation of the day when God and the Lamb will be the Temple in the new heavens and earth), and in acknowledgement of the fact that the church is the Tabernacle of God in the age in-between?

If the Church could take upon itself to invent an entirely new feast (and other entirely new appointed times - St , This day and St. That day), why can't Jesus re institute the Feast of Tabernacles after He has returned, and His enemies have been thrown alive into the lake of fire?

So I believe that this is why we see Zechariah mentioning the Feast of Tabernacles - and the Feast of Tabernacles only - absolutely no mention is made in the passage of the nations coming up year to year for any other appointed time - have you ever considered why?

BUT the passage does not tell us what I have just said, nor does the passage give any reason for the nations having to come up from year to year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles or have no rain - it simply tells us what it tells us, and no more.

So we are speculating as to reasons - but your suggestion as to the reason, as far as I can see, is on the same track as mine, regardless of whether or not the the thousand years is literal.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

.

Zao is life · Oct 24, 2020

claninja said:
When going through the OT prophets, the first thing I like to remember, is that God spoke to the them through visions/riddles/dreams/parables, and NOT in clear language like He did with Moses.

Numbers 12:6-8 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. But this is not so with My servant Moses;
he is faithful in all My house.a I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles;he sees the form of the LORD.

Hosea 12:10 spoke through the prophets and multiplied their visions; I gave parables through the prophets.

So when we come to Zechariah, we should remember this is a vision/riddle/dream/parable, and NOT necessarily clear language like what was spoken to Moses.

Therefore, it is through the gospels and epistles that I interpret the parabolic language of the prophets:

1.) The NT declares the living waters is the receiving of the Spirit following the glorification of Christ:

zechariah 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Seab and the other half toward the Western Sea,c in summer and winter alike

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

2.) At Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension to the Father, He was/is/and will be king over all the earth in all ages.

Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

ephesians 1:21-22 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

3.) The feasts of Israel, including the feast of Booths, is only a shadow of Christ not the reality. Therefore, IMHO, Zechariah is not pointing toward people literally partaking in the feast of booths, but to Christ, to whom the substance of the feasts belongs to. Otherwise, Paul is directly contradicting zechariah 14.

zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

colossians Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

4.) Was Jesus directly contradicting the message as found in zechariah 14:7, by claiming a time was coming when they would no longer need to worship in Jerusalem? I don't think so. I believe that the parabolic language of Zechariah 14 is pointing to the heavenly Jerusalem, the new covenant, to which the Body of Christ now comes to.

zechariah 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

John 4:21-23 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

I agree with Eusebius (265-339ad) on his commentary on zechariah 14:

" And which were the days after the age of Zechariah, when the spoils of Jerusalem were divided, and all nations were gathered against them in battle, and the city was taken, their houses looted, their women defiled, and they themselves led into captivity, while the Lord was at the same time aiding the nations warring against Jerusalem and drawn up against them? Or when did His feet stand (b) on the Mount of Olives? Or when was the Lord King of all the earth, when was there one Lord over all men, when did His Name encircle the whole earth and the wilderness? It is impossible to argue that this was fulfilled previously to the period of the Romans, in whose time the Jewish Temple was burnt for the second time after its destruction by the Babylonians, and their city from then till now has been inhabited by foreign nations.

And it was when our Lord Jesus, the Christ of God, had (c) visited the olive-grove over against Jerusalem, since the words of the prophecy were fulfilled which said, "His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives opposite to Jerusalem," that is, the life of holiness having been established |147 throughout all the world, that all the nations, according to the prophecy, kept the Feast of Tabernacles together in every place to the God of the prophets, and the Egyptians from that time recognizing God erected tents in every town and country place, which mean the local Christian Churches. For the power of our Saviour Jesus Christ has pegged them (d) far better than Moses' tents through the whole world, so that every race of men and all the Gentiles may keep their Feast of Tabernacles to Almighty God.

When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our own day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, (413) the Christ of God, has come, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated to have been clearly fulfilled" (Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica.book 8, chapter 4).

Thank you. What you say is true (except for one part, which I will come to) - but this is the catch - it can be true of both the period following the Lord's first coming, as well as the period following His second coming (IF the thousand years is literal).

However, there is a part which does not fit in with the period following the Lord's first coming: the part which states that the LORD, when setting His feet on the Mount of Olives, went out and fought against the nations which came against Jerusalem, and what the end result was for them - this did not happen in 70 A.D. Instead, the LORD let the armies of the nations (Roman armies) which came against Jerusalem in 70 A.D, destroy it.

I also will re-post here what I posted to BaBerean2: Have you ever considered that instead of the Church, after the apostles' time, inventing a holiday that was unknown to the apostles (Christmas), the Church could have started an annual Feast of Tabernacles in remembrance of when Christ was tabernacled among us, in anticipation of the return of Christ (and in anticipation of the day when God and the Lamb will be the Temple in the new heavens and earth), and in acknowledgement of the fact that the church is the Tabernacle of God in the age in-between?

If the Church could take upon itself to invent an entirely new feast (and other entirely new appointed times - St , This day and St. That day), why can't Jesus re institute the Feast of Tabernacles after He has returned, and His enemies have been thrown alive into the lake of fire?

I agree that the Feasts are all a shadow of what is accomplished in and by Christ, and I believe that this is why we see Zechariah mentioning the Feast of Tabernacles, and it may be symbolic or parabolic, as you say - but it's only the Feast of Tabernacles that is mentioned - absolutely no mention is made in the passage of the nations coming up year to year for any other appointed time. Have you ever considered why?

I've never understood why the Church, which commemorates Christmas (a Church-invented appointed time), and Easter (instead of Passover), would have such a problem with the idea that when Jesus has returned, whether it be in the new heavens and new earth or a literal thousand years - would re-institute this Feast, without the animal sacrifices involved.

The Revelation, when speaking about the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and the new earth, says. "And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it." (Revelation 11:26).

It also says of the temple in the new heavens and new earth, ""And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it."

I see no problem with an annual Feast of Tabernacles in this context - except that the expression "from year to year" suggests a time this side of eternity, for those who believe that time ceases after the return of Christ. (Personally I do not see "time" that way - but that's a completely separate issue).

The standing or falling of a symbolic interpretation of Zechariah 14, however, remains with the fact that the LORD did not stand on the Mount of Olives and destroy the nations come up against Jerusalem in 70 A.D - He had stood on the Mount of Olives when He gave the Olivet Discourse, and when He ascended into heaven - and we know that the angels told the disciples who witnessed His ascension that He will so come in like manner as He ascended. To me that suggests that when He returns, His feet will once again stand on the Mount of Olives - and the Armageddon armies, which will have gathered against Jerusalem, will be destroyed, their flesh "rotting while they stand on their feet, and their eyes rotting in their sockets. And their tongue rotting in their mouth." (Zechariah 14:12) when the beast and its false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20).

Like I said,

I could be wrong.

But there is (quite obviously) more than one way of looking at this - it's either all symbolic for the period in-between the first coming and return of Christ, or it's literal; and the jury is still out and arguing among one another about who is interpreting the prophetic Word of God too literally, and who is interpreting the Word of God too symbolically. The Lord will be the judge, when He returns. Some of us are going to go through an automatic correctional crash-course.

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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