want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

RickReads

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In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4), the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in Hebrews 10:26-39.

So these certain individuals who fell away certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who truly believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.

I thought this was a really good answer for Hebrews 6. So much so that this is my second time reading it. At this moment I`m feeling like this is the correct way to understand Hebrews 6. So thanks for stepping up to the plate and getting a hit.

Having said that, I don`t think it squares with the views of a lot of OSAS proponents I have debated with in the past. You are suggesting an interim period for a believer before salavation occurs. I certainly agree with that but many OSAS Christians would not. Most churches I have visited do not treat new converts as though that were true.

I hope he doesn`t start scolding me again for pointing this out. LOL! But I saw one post that misquotes the Bible and it said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be SAVED", what the Bible really says is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

It`s a critical difference in meaning. If it`s just believe and you be saved then you hold the power of salvation in your hand and God must save you because you believe. Some, probably many OSAS Christians believe that and they are the same ones who display hostility toward Law discussion and other scriptures that provide structure to a believers ways.

The Bible says believe and you will be saved. Belief is the qualifier (W/O faith you can`t please God), but salvation is an act of God that occurs after you believe. God is in control of salvation not man. It`s future tense after the believe. It`s why what you do after you believe matters.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Even those in the best soil can turn away from God.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Where is the soil in that passage stated ?

I guarantee you its not this soil.

Matthew 13
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

What Hebrews 6:4-8 describes judas and Hebrews 6:9 describes the other disciples. The tares among the wheat.
 
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1an

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Where is the soil in that passage stated ?

I guarantee you its not this soil.

Matthew 13
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

It is the same fertile soil.
.
 
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no you made that up since its not stated in the passage. nice try though

The seed that fell on rock fell away because it had no root to grow past the rocks. The fact that the seed plant endured for a while shows that it had life. The other seed was choked by thorns because of the cares and riches of this life. Can you choke a seed plant that is dead or alive? Obviously only a living plant can be choked by thorns. So theses plants (from the seeds) we’re alive (which shows that it had life or eternal life at one time).
 
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1an

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no you made that up since its not stated in the passage. nice try though
The parable ends with the most fruitful of believers in the best soil. These are the finest of Christians, and the most fruitful. They have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, yet they fall away and backslide. It can happen to anyone. Nobody is secure until they enter the heavenly kingdom.
.
 
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The seed that fell on rock fell away because it had no root to grow past the rocks. The fact that the seed plant endured for a while shows that it had life. The other seed was choked by thorns because of the cares and riches of this life. Can you choke a seed plant that is dead or alive? The plant was alive (which shows that it had life or eternal life at one time).
No it does not state it had eternal life. Think of the Fig Tree Jesus cursed that did not produce and fruit. A fruit tree is designed to produce fruit and it not it is cut down and thrown into the fire. A good tree produces fruit a bad tree does not even though it is alive. There is a huge difference between the two.

Do you know anything about farming or agriculture ?

By that I mean not by what you read but by experience ?
 
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One of the big problems with OSAS (and Reformed theology generally) is that it turns the Christian believer into a robot. A puppet.

Under that theology, once a person is saved, he is incapable of making a free-will choice to permanently reject our Lord, or to continue following him day after day.

He is basically an automaton controlled by God, yet mysteriously he still sins somehow, even though he is a puppet controlled by God.

The theology makes no sense at all if you just apply a bit of common sense.

Lot of varience in OSAS beliefs. I think the defense of it in this thread is above average.
 
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The parable ends with the most fruitful of believers in the best soil. These are the finest of Christians, and the most fruitful. They have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, yet they fall away and backslide. It can happen to anyone. Nobody is secure until they enter the heavenly kingdom.
.

so judas was saved ?
 
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It is the same fertile soil.
.

I believe the soil is the condition of the heart.
One soil was rocky. Another soil had thorns. Another was good soil. These are the conditions of that person’s heart. But the seeds grown for a short time; One was stopped by stony ground, and one was stopped by thorns. This shows that the seeds had life in these believers for a short time. For the seeds being able to grow even in tough conditions for a short while means that these seeds had eternal life temporarily. Meaning, they had life temporarily.
 
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I believe the soil is the condition of the heart.
One soil was rocky. Another soil had thorns. Another was good soil. These are the conditions of that person’s heart. But the seeds grown for a short time; One was stopped by stony ground, and one was stopped by thorns. This shows that the seeds had life in these believers for a short time. For the seeds being able to grow even in tough conditions for a short while means that these seeds had eternal life temporarily. Did they had life temporarily.
It is the heart.
 
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so judas was saved ?

Yes, at one point in time. But he lost his salvation. The problem is that you must believe the Lord chooses devils to be His chosen disciples. But what fellowship does light have with darkness?
 
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Yes, at one point in time. But he lost his salvation. The problem is that you must believe the Lord chooses devils to be His chosen disciples. But what fellowship does light have with darkness?

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 
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I believe their not having root means they did not have root in Jesus and a root in His words. Sure they believed and they were saved, but they did build that proper relationship deeper with Christ and neither did they grow deeply in His Word (putting the Word on the inside of their heart).
 
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The seed that fell on rock fell away because it had no root to grow past the rocks. The fact that the seed plant endured for a while shows that it had life. The other seed was choked by thorns because of the cares and riches of this life. Can you choke a seed plant that is dead or alive? Obviously only a living plant can be choked by thorns. So theses plants (from the seeds) we’re alive (which shows that it had life or eternal life at one time).

That`s an interesting point. Thxs.
 
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Yes, at one point in time. But he lost his salvation. The problem is that you must believe the Lord chooses devils to be His chosen disciples. But what fellowship does light have with darkness?
Nowhere in scripture does it say that Judas was saved or possessed eternal life. In fact it declares just the opposite. The bible teaches that Judas was the son of perdition from the beginning. He was created for the very purpose and role as the traitor who would betray Jesus. Jesus said of Judas it would of been better off for him to not even been born than to betray the Son of Man.

John 6:63-65
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:70-71
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray Him.)

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray Him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

John 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For He knew who was going to betray Him, and that was why He said not every one was clean.


John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matt 26:23-25
23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"

Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."

Acts 1:16-19
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Acts 1:24-26
Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Ps 109:4-8
In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.


6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.
 
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5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Uh, please tell me you are not saying God creates evil in the sense of evil things, or sin, or evil beings directly, etc.; If so, that would be insane. 1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness in God. The NKJV helps clarify this verse. Isaiah 45:7 says, “I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.” (NKJV).
 
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