Abominations.

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

pescador said:
I don't "Fear" God! He is my loving father -- my Abba. I love Him and come to Him constantly for hope and encouragement, knowing that He has forgiven my human failings.

John 8:10-11, "Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”

The above is a story that doesn't appear in the earliest texts; it was probably added later by a zealous scribe. Notice that Jesus does not condemn the woman for her past behavior. He forgives her out of love and says nothing about fear.

Can I refer you to Isaiah 11.

The anointing on Jesus included the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

A loving God must be a judging God or wickedness prevails.

Hey, I have an intense Love for my Eternal Father coupled with a deep respect for His Holiness.

The Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom.

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Can I refer you to Isaiah 11.

The anointing on Jesus included the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

A loving God must be a judging God or wickedness prevails.

Hey, I have an intense Love for my Eternal Father coupled with a deep respect for His Holiness.

The Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom.

May I introduce you to the New Covenant sometime?

What about Isaiah 11? Here is the beginning of that chapter in the NET Bible (although there were no chapters in the ancient Hebrew Bible)...

A shoot will grow out of Jesse’s root stock,
a bud will sprout from his roots.
The Lord’s Spirit will rest on him—
a Spirit that gives extraordinary wisdom,
a Spirit that provides the ability to execute plans,
a Spirit that produces absolute loyalty to the Lord.
He will take delight in obeying the Lord.
He will not judge by mere appearances,
or make decisions on the basis of hearsay.

Notice that the word 'fear' doesn't appear anywhere in this translation; 'absolute loyalty' is preferred in the sixth line. I prefer this translation because it is the most accurate in conveying the meaning of the text to 21st Century Christians.

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

Why does anybody "fear" God, their loving Father? I feel God's love daily and am most appreciative of it. Love and fear are opposites. I love God and fear Satan, not the other way around.

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

May I introduce you to the New Covenant...

Jer 32:40...

39 I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will always fear Me for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good to them, and I will put My fear in their hearts, so that they will never turn away from Me. 41 Yes, I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.…

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

1 Peter 2:

13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
May I introduce you to the New Covenant...

Jer 32:40...

39 I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will always fear Me for their own good and for the good of their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good to them, and I will put My fear in their hearts, so that they will never turn away from Me. 41 Yes, I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.…

Oh now I see. A few verses taken out of context from the Old Testament is your example of the New Covenant.

Here is your chosen verse (+1) from the NET Bible, "I will make a lasting covenant with them that I will never stop doing good to them. I will fill their hearts and minds with respect for me so that they will never again turn away from me. I will take delight in doing good to them. I will faithfully and wholeheartedly plant them firmly in the land.’

Try these famous verses instead: " For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be plainly evident that his deeds have been done in God. John 3:16-21

It is truly bizarre to quote a very few verses from the Old Covenant and apply them to the New Covenant under which we live. God loves His people -- His children -- who are in Christ.

Mark 14:36, "He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Romans 8:15, "For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” (the same term that Jesus used to refer to His loving Father. It is the Aramaic equivalent of "Daddy", a term of endearment, not fear.)

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
1 Peter 2:

13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Okay, I give up. You go ahead and fear God, your Heavenly Father who loves you and gave His only Son, Himself God, so that you may have eternal life. If you want to wallow in fear, thinking that's what God wants, go ahead.

Personally, I love my Heavenly Father and rejoice in knowing that He loves me. I will leave this discussion with this verse: "There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears punishment has not been perfected in love." 1 John 4:18

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

How do you think Paul felt, being blinded by his encounter with Jesus?

Deep respect - awestruck - That is the fear of God I refer to.

What happened when Ananias was struck down...

11And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
12At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico.
13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

That is the fear of God I refer to.

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
How do you think Paul felt, being blinded by his encounter with Jesus?

Deep respect - awestruck - That is the fear of God I refer to.

What happened when Ananias was struck down...

11And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
12At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico.
13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

That is the fear of God I refer to.

I feel so sorry for you!!!!

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

Here is a piece I wrote about 10 years ago that might help.

Restoring Reverence for God.

There is another issue that has contributed to a weak church today.
Our Father wants to express Himself to the world today through the family of God - in His fullness.
Social pressure has led to us presenting a palatable Gospel without the aspects of God’s nature that might offend.
We have failed to allow expression of many of His attributes and in doing so have made our God ‘PC’
To get a balanced picture of His character it is necessary to consider the whole of scripture and not just the New Testament.
Many believers have struggled to reconcile the Christ from the New with the God of Israel from the Old.
The aspects of God that have been conveniently ignored are in fact crucial to a strong Church. These could be called the ‘negative’ attributes of God, are not ‘nice’ and include the following…
Our God judges, is jealous, hates sin, is terrible, destroys, gets angry, consumes like a fire, takes vengeance and is intolerant.
Presenting a soft view of God has lead to having a generation of believers that have little comprehension or experience of the “fear” of God. There is a corresponding lack of wisdom among us, compounded by the modern trend towards young leadership in some Churches. By fear, I mean to honour and respect for a God who is awesome and holy. This is not to be confused with an unholy fear associated with sects and cults to control adherents.
This failure to represent of the fear of God to the Church has also meant that the Church’s voice in the world is muted.
How do we correct this lack of knowledge of such an important part of God’s character?
Three things come to mind.
Firstly, these aspects of God’s character are more often than not expressed through God’s prophets. You may ask - where are they? In many cases the structure and dynamic of our churches fails to make room for such a ministry. The one who is brave enough to say that we need to repent is often seen immediately as imbalanced ‘flakey’ or plainly deceived. In the early church there was a fellowship of prophets serving the family of God to bring His word. This is virtually unheard of today and would likely be viewed as a dangerous clique. This grouping of prophets in a district should be welcomed and serve to bring God’s Word to the Shepard’s in the area.
Secondly there has been a trend away from preaching and towards teaching. It is not surprising that preaching the Gospel has less appeal in the modern church as we are exhorted to go out and preach whereas most preachers stay in and preach. In staying in, they are all too often addressing a convinced audience. As in the early church, preaching should be done in public where the unsaved are. This is where the word of judgment has a significant place. Preaching with signs following in the market place results in radical conversions, which in turn challenge the church and stimulate renewal.
Thirdly our current generation seems to lack the personal close encounters with the Almighty that many of us remember, permanently changing our lives. I still recall a prayer time with students at Otago University in the 70’s when ‘God passed by…’ I was speechless for several hours. An encounter of that nature leaves one with a permanent deep respect and healthy fear of our Lord for a lifetime.
We sing about His awe, but if there was revelation knowledge of His holiness our gatherings would be more likely to command His respect and fear.

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Here is a piece I wrote about 10 years ago that might help.

Restoring Reverence for God.

There is another issue that has contributed to a weak church today.
Our Father wants to express Himself to the world today through the family of God - in His fullness.
Social pressure has led to us presenting a palatable Gospel without the aspects of God’s nature that might offend.
We have failed to allow expression of many of His attributes and in doing so have made our God ‘PC’
To get a balanced picture of His character it is necessary to consider the whole of scripture and not just the New Testament.
Many believers have struggled to reconcile the Christ from the New with the God of Israel from the Old.
The aspects of God that have been conveniently ignored are in fact crucial to a strong Church. These could be called the ‘negative’ attributes of God, are not ‘nice’ and include the following…
Our God judges, is jealous, hates sin, is terrible, destroys, gets angry, consumes like a fire, takes vengeance and is intolerant.
Presenting a soft view of God has lead to having a generation of believers that have little comprehension or experience of the “fear” of God. There is a corresponding lack of wisdom among us, compounded by the modern trend towards young leadership in some Churches. By fear, I mean to honour and respect for a God who is awesome and holy. This is not to be confused with an unholy fear associated with sects and cults to control adherents.
This failure to represent of the fear of God to the Church has also meant that the Church’s voice in the world is muted.
How do we correct this lack of knowledge of such an important part of God’s character?
Three things come to mind.
Firstly, these aspects of God’s character are more often than not expressed through God’s prophets. You may ask - where are they? In many cases the structure and dynamic of our churches fails to make room for such a ministry. The one who is brave enough to say that we need to repent is often seen immediately as imbalanced ‘flakey’ or plainly deceived. In the early church there was a fellowship of prophets serving the family of God to bring His word. This is virtually unheard of today and would likely be viewed as a dangerous clique. This grouping of prophets in a district should be welcomed and serve to bring God’s Word to the Shepard’s in the area.
Secondly there has been a trend away from preaching and towards teaching. It is not surprising that preaching the Gospel has less appeal in the modern church as we are exhorted to go out and preach whereas most preachers stay in and preach. In staying in, they are all too often addressing a convinced audience. As in the early church, preaching should be done in public where the unsaved are. This is where the word of judgment has a significant place. Preaching with signs following in the market place results in radical conversions, which in turn challenge the church and stimulate renewal.
Thirdly our current generation seems to lack the personal close encounters with the Almighty that many of us remember, permanently changing our lives. I still recall a prayer time with students at Otago University in the 70’s when ‘God passed by…’ I was speechless for several hours. An encounter of that nature leaves one with a permanent deep respect and healthy fear of our Lord for a lifetime.
We sing about His awe, but if there was revelation knowledge of His holiness our gatherings would be more likely to command His respect and fear.

Help whom? "There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears punishment has not been perfected in love."

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

The Fear of God is a friend that seals our salvation.

The 'Daddy God' gospel common in recent times has misrepresented the fullness of His character.

While I enjoy an intense love relationship with Him I am in awe of His presence to the point of being speechless at times.

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

pescador said:
Help whom? "There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears punishment has not been perfected in love."

Sadly you are confusing two very different fears...

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
The Fear of God is a friend that seals our salvation.

The 'Daddy God' gospel common in recent times has misrepresented the fullness of His character.

While I enjoy an intense love relationship with Him I am in awe of His presence to the point of being speechless at times.

You wrote, "The 'Daddy God' gospel common in recent times has misrepresented the fullness of His character." Now I see where you're coming from.

Again, Carl, I'm leaving. I feel sorry for you and will pray for you to see God as He really is, not as you see Him. "The person who does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:8

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

I acknowledge your words of judgement and leave Him to deal with that.

Carl Emerson · Oct 24, 2020

2 Cor 5:

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Therefore, since we know what it means to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is clear to God, and I hope it is clear to your conscience as well. 12 We are not commending ourselves to you again. Instead, we are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you can answer those who take pride in appearances rather than in the heart.…

Andrewn · Oct 25, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

pescador said:
Personally, I love my Heavenly Father and rejoice in knowing that He loves me. I will leave this discussion with this verse: "There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears punishment has not been perfected in love." 1 John 4:18

The discussion about Fear of the Lord boils down to the meaning of the Greek verb "phobeo." I will not copy and paste the long definition in Thayers Greek Lexicon. But here are the main points:

1. to be put to flight, to flee.
2. to fear, be afraid; to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm.
3. to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience.

I think we can agree that, when the refence is to God, it is the 3rd meaning that the authors have in mind. We are not talking about being scared and hiding from God who is "coming to get us."

So, when the NET renders the concept into 'respect' and 'absolute loyalty,' it is actually doing a good job. But I would rather have the word 'fear' in my Bible to remind me that we're talking about 'extreme respect and awe.'

pescador · Oct 25, 2020

Andrewn said:
The discussion about Fear of the Lord boils down to the meaning of the Greek verb "phobeo." I will not copy and paste the long definition in Thayers Greek Lexicon. But here are the main points:

1. to be put to flight, to flee.
2. to fear, be afraid; to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm.
3. to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience.

I think we can agree that, when the refence is to God, it is the 3rd meaning that the authors have in mind. We are not talking about being scared and hiding from God who is "coming to get us."

So, when the NET renders the concept into 'respect' and 'absolute loyalty,' it is actually doing a good job. But I would rather have the word 'fear' in my Bible to remind me that we're talking about 'extreme respect and awe.'

So there are three meanings possible for "phobeo" and you choose door number 3 (with no basis for context, connotation, etc). Very professional -- not!

KurtHectic · Oct 25, 2020

I don’t think anything changed about them, and they didn’t need to be mentioned too much in the New Testament given that the Old Testament was affirmed fully by Jesus Christ during his time.

Carl Emerson · Oct 25, 2020

Andrewn said:
The discussion about Fear of the Lord boils down to the meaning of the Greek verb "phobeo." I will not copy and paste the long definition in Thayers Greek Lexicon. But here are the main points:

1. to be put to flight, to flee.
2. to fear, be afraid; to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm.
3. to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience.

I think we can agree that, when the refence is to God, it is the 3rd meaning that the authors have in mind. We are not talking about being scared and hiding from God who is "coming to get us."

So, when the NET renders the concept into 'respect' and 'absolute loyalty,' it is actually doing a good job. But I would rather have the word 'fear' in my Bible to remind me that we're talking about 'extreme respect and awe.'

I think this issue warrants a seperate thread...

I will open a new one for this purpose.

Abominations.

Well-Known Member

Wise old man

Wise old man

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Wise old man

Wise old man

Well-Known Member

Wise old man

Well-Known Member

Wise old man

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Wise old man

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Wise old man

Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads