Abominations.

Carl Emerson · Oct 22, 2020

Getting back on topic...

In reading the OT we are made aware of the character of the Father and His hatred of sin.

Apart from the matters of the law, it is clear from what we read that certain sins were repugnant to a Holy God and evoked instant death.

Now the forgiveness of God does not change His hatred of sin.

Being in the New Covenant does not provide a soft option.

'Go and sin no more' means just that.

So abominations that required instant death in the OC must been seen as repugnant to a Holy God in the NC.

Sure there is forgiveness for those who repent and sin no more.

Any other position would seem to indicate a lack of the Fear of God which is an essential element to faith.

Aussie Pete · Oct 23, 2020

Andrewn said:
I wrote, "It makes sense to excommunicate people who are proud of their sin and teach others to follow their example (this was probably the situation in Corinth), but not just bec of their sin." The examples you gave about senior ministers and disruptive individuals would be in agreement with what I said. I hope your intention is not broader.

Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I guess that is OK. The 2nd part of the meeting can be considered a closed meeting of those who are members.

But, we may be talking about apples and oranges. While I have in mind a church of at least 150 Sunday attendees, you may be talking about a small group, which can be easily disrupted by the presence of a person who does not share their convictions. Such a group can simply put a sign saying, "All sinless people are welcome."

The church is the church. If anyone is permitted to join in, no matter what their spiritual condition, then the church meeting is that much diminished. The world does not permit such foolishness. If a soccer player wandered into a professional cricket match and demanded the right to play, he would be evicted and rightly so. I've been in a meeting of 300 people where one person insisted on crowing like a rooster throughout the meeting. She should have been told to leave. It's not even polite, let alone spiritually acceptable.

Two different meetings works just fine. Your remark about sinless people is uncalled for. Small groups are tough for those who attend exactly because wrong attitudes and behaviours are much harder to hide. Ideally, no fellowship should exceed 30 people. That's about as many as can be properly cared for.

Andrewn · Oct 23, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
I've been in a meeting of 300 people where one person insisted on crowing like a rooster throughout the meeting. She should have been told to leave. It's not even polite, let alone spiritually acceptable.

I totally agree that disruptive teaching and behavior of any sort needs to dealt with.

Aussie Pete said:
Your remark about sinless people is uncalled for.

Yes, I apologize. When I wrote this, I was thinking of a very small church I visited one Sunday about a year ago. I sat in the back and, at the time of communion, the usher stood in front of me to block my way to the altar.

Aussie Pete said:
Small groups are tough for those who attend exactly because wrong attitudes and behaviours are much harder to hide. Ideally, no fellowship should exceed 30 people. That's about as many as can be properly cared for.

I agree. It would be nice if church service was divided into 2 different meetings, as you suggested, and in the second meeting members are divided into groups of < 30 (assuming Covid restrictions will be over one day). The obvious problem is length of the 2 services as most people would rather attend for 1 hour and leave.

My church, and others, work around this by having several Bible study groups during the week at homes and in the church building. I don't think all Sunday attendees sign into these groups. And I don't think their focus is always on holiness.

eleos1954 · Oct 23, 2020

Michael Collum said:
1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Believe what you want, but scripture does say He preached to the dead.

Anyone who died after that is subject to their own conscience as Paul said.

Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Da 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The judgment for those not in the book of life, will be a judgment of their own heart's conscience, God opens up and reads hearts like a book.

Much like the judgement in the Garden, that ended up as a big blame game, so will the judgment be.

Michael Collum said:
1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

No. It says the gospel “was” preached to those who “are” dead. They are dead now, but the gospel “was” preached to them while they were yet living.

His word is clear ... the dead know nothing. Jesus Himself describes death as a sleep .... ie Lazaras is asleep .... Lazaras is dead. And makes perfect sense ... as one day everyone will be resurrected ... 1st of the saved .... 2nd of the lost.

Says the law is written in their (gentile) hearts .... by nature the law is written in everybody's heart ... one either pays attention to it ... or not. Mankind was created in His image ... the law is embedded in everyone's heart/mind. Has to be .... else how are those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel (through no fault of their own) rightfully judged?

Romans 2:12

1For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.…

Judgement happens before He returns .... Jesus judges according to the doers of the law ... (again my focus is on those who never heard the gospel).

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Referring to the 3 days/nights Jesus would rest in the tomb.
so you think "hell" is a burning place in the "heart of the earth"?

Jonas equated his experience of being in hell (being in the belly of the whale) not a burning place. Was Jonas actually in hell? No .... he was in the belly of the whale.

Jonah 2:2-6
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice…

Sheol is the negation or end of life (Prov. 15:24; 23:14; Ps. 30:3). The references to sheol as a place deep beneath the earth is not about geography but about its distance from heaven as the place of life. It stresses death as total alienation from the living God; the farthest place from heaven in the cosmos (Ps. 139:8; 88:5, 11). Those who are in sheol cannot praise the Lord (Ps. 6:5), and their memory is gone; they are dead. Consequently, Israel had no cult of the dead, and consulting the dead (necromancy) was forbidden (Deut. 18:11).

If Jesus preached in "hell" .... for what purpose? ... those in "hell" can not praise the Lord. If this is believed ... is He still preaching in "hell". If not, why not?

nolidad · Oct 23, 2020

Ananias said:
Jesus said: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

All has not been accomplished until the Last Day when Christ arrives in glory and gives his final judgement.

We know the Apostles still hold to the scriptural authority of the Old Testament because they quote from it and refer to it constantly (~250 times!) to support their teachings in the New Testament. If the old Law had been rendered moot, as you say, they wouldn't have done that.

So are you following all the dietary laws, the clothing laws, the laews of marriage and keeping the 7 festivals that the law commands?

Or could it be that you do not quite fully understand what Jesus is saying here!

When Jesus declared tetelestai! All the law was accomplished. In HIm!

Most of teh quoting the apostles did were prophecies about Christ or visions of the end.

The Jewish wing of teh church tended to keep observing the law even to this day! But far more so when the church was very young and all Jewish.

But when the church expanded into the Gentile World as Paul wrote in Galatians:

2:19 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Ananias · Oct 23, 2020

nolidad said:
So are you following all the dietary laws, the clothing laws, the laews of marriage and keeping the 7 festivals that the law commands?

I already addressed this in my previous post.

[EDIT] Deleted some text for rudeness on my part.

nolidad · Oct 23, 2020

Ananias said:
I already addressed this in my previous post.

[EDIT] Deleted some text for rudeness on my part.

And I showed you that the divisions in the law were not instituted by god but by man and long after God gave the law with its 613 commands.

Even to this day when a Jew refers to teh Torah- they are reffering to all 613 Laws God gave to Moses!

and as for the ten written and engraven in stone?

2 Cor. 3:
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Why would any Christian wish to adhere to something that has as its goal-DEATH???????

The law does not give life- but death.

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Carl Emerson · Oct 23, 2020

Andrewn said:
I totally agree that disruptive teaching and behavior of any sort needs to dealt with.

Yes, I apologize. When I wrote this, I was thinking of a very small church I visited one Sunday about a year ago. I sat in the back and, at the time of communion, the usher stood in front of me to block my way to the altar.

I agree. It would be nice if church service was divided into 2 different meetings, as you suggested, and in the second meeting members are divided into groups of < 30 (assuming Covid restrictions will be over one day). The obvious problem is length of the 2 services as most people would rather attend for 1 hour and leave.

My church, and others, work around this by having several Bible study groups during the week at homes and in the church building. I don't think all Sunday attendees sign into these groups. And I don't think their focus is always on holiness.

When the first meetings were held at the birth of the church they were private.

The great commission was being acted upon and the apostles went into the world to preach, responders were baptised and more private meetings were formed as the church grew.

No real-estate.

No public meetings.

To me the idea of a two meeting format, public and private is a compromise.

The witness to the world was public preaching, healing in the marketplace, and the loving community of believers.

Much more likely to survive under persecution...

Ananias · Oct 23, 2020

nolidad said:
And I showed you that the divisions in the law were not instituted by god but by man and long after God gave the law with its 613 commands.

Even to this day when a Jew refers to teh Torah- they are reffering to all 613 Laws God gave to Moses!

and as for the ten written and engraven in stone?

I am an Anglican and thus affirm the 39 Articles of Religion. Article VII states:

"The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral."

Gregory Thompson · Oct 23, 2020

True Counterphobia said:
I agree completely. I would, however, point out that Jesus command (and it was a command) was to stop sinning in both a specific sense and a broad sense. Obviously Jesus did not expect this woman to go with out any sin for the rest of her life. But it WAS a call to repentance, which was Jesus primary message.

Of course the discourse was written in a contemporary literary genre.

So understanding how the conversation actually went takes some understanding.

I sincerely doubt anyone could say half the things Jesus did without being interrupted, and the gospel is mostly monologues.

Gregory Thompson · Oct 23, 2020

eleos1954 said:
No. It says the gospel “was” preached to those who “are” dead. They are dead now, but the gospel “was” preached to them while they were yet living.

His word is clear ... the dead know nothing. Jesus Himself describes death as a sleep .... ie Lazaras is asleep .... Lazaras is dead. And makes perfect sense ... as one day everyone will be resurrected ... 1st of the saved .... 2nd of the lost.

Says the law is written in their (gentile) hearts .... by nature the law is written in everybody's heart ... one either pays attention to it ... or not. Mankind was created in His image ... the law is embedded in everyone's heart/mind. Has to be .... else how are those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel (through no fault of their own) rightfully judged?

Romans 2:12

1For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.…

Judgement happens before He returns .... Jesus judges according to the doers of the law ... (again my focus is on those who never heard the gospel).

Referring to the 3 days/nights Jesus would rest in the tomb.
so you think "hell" is a burning place in the "heart of the earth"?

Jonas equated his experience of being in hell (being in the belly of the whale) not a burning place. Was Jonas actually in hell? No .... he was in the belly of the whale.

Jonah 2:2-6
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice…

Sheol is the negation or end of life (Prov. 15:24; 23:14; Ps. 30:3). The references to sheol as a place deep beneath the earth is not about geography but about its distance from heaven as the place of life. It stresses death as total alienation from the living God; the farthest place from heaven in the cosmos (Ps. 139:8; 88:5, 11). Those who are in sheol cannot praise the Lord (Ps. 6:5), and their memory is gone; they are dead. Consequently, Israel had no cult of the dead, and consulting the dead (necromancy) was forbidden (Deut. 18:11).

If Jesus preached in "hell" .... for what purpose? ... those in "hell" can not praise the Lord. If this is believed ... is He still preaching in "hell". If not, why not?

Well, if we read different things from the same scriptures, I guess I'll need to concede that God is right, and both of us are liars.

Jesse Dornfeld · Oct 23, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Of course the discourse was written in a contemporary literary genre.

So understanding how the conversation actually went takes some understanding.

I sincerely doubt anyone could say half the things Jesus did without being interrupted, and the gospel is mostly monologues.

I agree the Gospels are written as a literary genre, but we should not ignore the fact that Jesus preach, "As one with authority, and not like the scribes" (Mark 1:22). As such, everything about Jesus was "amped up" to extreme levels. His miracles were extreme as well as His teaching and the authority he had. I personally take this to mean that Jesus may very well have talked to the crowds for hours on end without interruption, but that is just a feeling I get as it doesn't say it explicitly in the text. Further, Jesus knew the hearts He was talking to (Mark 2:8) so He would be able to answer people's questions before they even asked them.

eleos1954 · Oct 23, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Well, if we read different things from the same scriptures, I guess I'll need to concede that God is right, and both of us are liars.

eh .... will just agree to disagree ;o) and yes .... God is right no doubt ;o) We all do endeavor to understand.

Gregory Thompson · Oct 23, 2020

True Counterphobia said:
I agree the Gospels are written as a literary genre, but we should not ignore the fact that Jesus preach, "As one with authority, and not like the scribes" (Mark 1:22). As such, everything about Jesus was "amped up" to extreme levels. His miracles were extreme as well as His teaching and the authority he had. I personally take this to mean that Jesus may very well have talked to the crowds for hours on end without interruption, but that is just a feeling I get as it doesn't say it explicitly in the text. Further, Jesus knew the hearts He was talking to (Mark 2:8) so He would be able to answer people's questions before they even asked them.

I've thought along those lines before, it is indeed possible.

But the ending in the Gospel of John does give us a picture that there is a lot that wasn't written.

Jesse Dornfeld · Oct 23, 2020

Michael Collum said:
I've thought along those lines before, it is indeed possible.

But the ending in the Gospel of John does give us a picture that there is a lot that wasn't written.

Indeed. It is clear from scripture just how many miracles Jesus was doing when it says elsewhere, "Yet many of the people believed in him. They said, 'When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?'" (John 7:31).

Andrewn · Oct 24, 2020

nolidad said:
And I showed you that the divisions in the law were not instituted by god but by man and long after God gave the law with its 613 commands. Even to this day when a Jew refers to teh Torah- they are reffering to all 613 Laws God gave to Moses!

Even though you're premise is correct, there may be value to the moral commandments. This doesn't mean that sinners should be stoned, however.

One example is that the NT mentions "inappropriate contenteia" many times. We know that it means "fornication" or "sexual immorality." But which actions are to be considered inappropriate contenteia?

To me, the only way to answer this question is to go to the Torah to see which sexual actions were prohibited.

Andrewn · Oct 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
No real-estate. No public meetings. To me the idea of a two meeting format, public and private is a compromise. The witness to the world was public preaching, healing in the marketplace, and the loving community of believers. Much more likely to survive under persecution...

Yes, this would be more likely to survive persecution.

pescador · Oct 24, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Getting back on topic...

In reading the OT we are made aware of the character of the Father and His hatred of sin.

Apart from the matters of the law, it is clear from what we read that certain sins were repugnant to a Holy God and evoked instant death.

Now the forgiveness of God does not change His hatred of sin.

Being in the New Covenant does not provide a soft option.

'Go and sin no more' means just that.

So abominations that required instant death in the OC must been seen as repugnant to a Holy God in the NC.

Sure there is forgiveness for those who repent and sin no more.

Any other position would seem to indicate a lack of the Fear of God which is an essential element to faith.

I don't "Fear" God! He is my loving father -- my Abba. I love Him and come to Him constantly for hope and encouragement, knowing that He has forgiven my human failings.

John 8:10-11, "Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”

The above is a story that doesn't appear in the earliest texts; it was probably added later by a zealous scribe. Notice that Jesus does not condemn the woman for her past behavior. He forgives her out of love and says nothing about fear.

nolidad · Oct 24, 2020

Ananias said:
I am an Anglican and thus affirm the 39 Articles of Religion. Article VII states:

"The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral."

Well I affirm the Scriptures!

And the SCriptures say that the "moral law" you refer to is a ministration of death! for we assume it is the ten!

Also the Church is not commanded to observe a specific day! That was in the moral law!

nolidad · Oct 24, 2020

Andrewn said:
Even though you're premise is correct, there may be value to the moral commandments. This doesn't mean that sinners should be stoned, however.

One example is that the NT mentions "inappropriate contenteia" many times. We know that it means "fornication" or "sexual immorality." But which actions are to be considered inappropriate contenteia?

To me, the only way to answer this question is to go to the Torah to see which sexual actions were prohibited.

Of course teh OT has great value! We learn of Gods Character, His dealings and many other facets. We can also learn what sins like inappropriate contentea are!

Once again the siomplest definition of inappropriate contentea. fornication, immorality (they are nearly the same) is any sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage!

Abominations.

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