Before Adam and Eve Disobeyed God They Were Welcome to Eternal Life and Had It Freely Available

Monksailor

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I was just reading the part of Genesis (ch 2&3) about Adam and Eve and realized or maybe was reminded that they had Eternal Life freely available to them and God welcomed them to eat/partake of it. I thought that I'd share this just in case there is another who hadn't realized this. The story is focused upon the forbidden tree and their disobedience and overshadows/ed this fact, for me anyway.
Apparently, they hadn't partaken of the tree of life, yet.

Ge 2:9 "The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Ge 2:16-17: "And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Both Pasted from <Genesis 2 NIV


Ge 3:22 "And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”"
Pasted from <Genesis 3 NIV>

I thought this the best forum to place this thread but if Staff has a better place for it, please...
 

prodromos

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I thought this the best forum to place this thread but if Staff has a better place for it, please...

Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose
Traditional Theology -- A forum dedicated to the respectful discussion of traditional, historic theology; liturgical practices, doctrines, dogmatics; Holy Scripture as found in the various canons of the Church; Church History; classic confessions of the faith, etc.
 
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prodromos

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Yep, I read that. It seems to fit to my understanding.
I can't imagine how. There is no link to the place of those Scripture passages in the Liturgy, no reference to historical teaching of the Church regarding those passages etc.
You simply wanted to share YOUR thoughts on the verses. How does that relate to Traditional Theology?
 
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Monksailor

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How does that relate to Traditional Theology?
Tradition: "The English word tradition comes from the Latin traditio via French, the noun from the verb tradere (to transmit, to hand over, to give for safekeeping); it was originally used in Roman law to refer to the concept of legal transfers and inheritance.[3][4]"
"The concept includes a number of interrelated ideas; the unifying one is that tradition refers to beliefs, objects or customs performed or believed in the past, originating in it, transmitted through time by being taught by one generation to the next, and are performed or believed in the present.[1][2]"
Pasted from <Tradition - Wikipedia>

Theology: "The word "theology" comes from two Greek words, theos meaning 'God' and logos meaning 'the word about (or the study of) God' as He is revealed in the Scriptures."
"Without theology, our relationship with God would be limited. Practically, theology is reading the Bible to discover what God has said about Himself. Theology teaches us that God is the Creator, Sustainer and Judge of all things"
Pasted from <What is the definition of theology?>

The story of Adam and Eve, the creation of man and the original sin, is one of the fundamental, traditional theological premises of most, if not all, Judeao-Christion religions.
 
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Monksailor

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"Statement of Purpose: Traditional Theology -- A forum dedicated to the respectful discussion of traditional, historic theology; liturgical practices, doctrines, dogmatics; Holy Scripture as found in the various canons of the Church; Church History; classic confessions of the faith, etc."

The story of Adam and Eve, the CREATION OF MAN and the ORIGINAL SIN, is relative, at the least, to what I have underlined above.
 
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prodromos

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The story of Adam and Eve, the creation of man and the original sin, is one of the fundamental, traditional theological premises of most, if not all, Judeao-Christion religions.
But your personal musings and thoughts on the matter aren't. If you want to post your thoughts on something you read in the Scriptures then post it in Christian Scriptures. If you want to discuss why these passages are read on a particular feast day of the Church and how they correlate to the Gospel and Epistle readings for the same day then this is the right place.
 
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Monksailor

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"Traditional Theology" seemed more appropriate for this topic as I have explained. Most every one is posting their personal musings and thoughts in this forum
But your personal musings and thoughts on the matter aren't.
You, yourself, in this forum do exactly the same thing. I have read several of your posts and your personal thoughts and musings are prevalent. You are harassing me here clearly for another reason. Out with it or go away. I will report you. You must have reported this thread to try to change the location as adamant and persistent you have been. No one argues just to argue, well, some do. But I will grant that you are not. I asked the Staff to relocate this if deemed appropriate. It stands here still. Where ever it ends up it will not change the content nor what I have said NOR its TRUTH.
 
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prodromos

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"Traditional Theology" seemed more appropriate for this topic as I have explained. Most every one is posting their personal musings and thoughts in this forum

You, yourself, in this forum do exactly the same thing. I have read several of your posts and your personal thoughts and musings are prevalent. You are harassing me here clearly for another reason. Out with it or go away. I will report you. You must have reported this thread to try to change the location as adamant and persistent you have been. No one argues just to argue, well, some do. But I will grant that you are not. I asked the Staff to relocate this if deemed appropriate. It stands here still. Where ever it ends up it will not change the content nor what I have said NOR its TRUTH.
I haven't reported your post and you have not asked the staff to relocate it unless you have reported your own post to request it. The Mods don't read posts unless requested to through the report function.
I have been trying to educate you as to the purpose of this forum and you seem unwilling to listen. I won't bother you any more.
 
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Francis Drake

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"Traditional Theology" seemed more appropriate for this topic as I have explained. Most every one is posting their personal musings and thoughts in this forum

You, yourself, in this forum do exactly the same thing. I have read several of your posts and your personal thoughts and musings are prevalent. You are harassing me here clearly for another reason. Out with it or go away. I will report you. You must have reported this thread to try to change the location as adamant and persistent you have been. No one argues just to argue, well, some do. But I will grant that you are not. I asked the Staff to relocate this if deemed appropriate. It stands here still. Where ever it ends up it will not change the content nor what I have said NOR its TRUTH.
An amusing but utterly pointless debate so far, sadly ignoring the significance of your OP.

So just to be clear, your OP matches my own perhaps lonesome tradition, and that makes 2 of us.
Not quite enough to start a cult, but we might have enough by the end of the day. Lol.

Understanding that there were 2 trees in the garden of Eden is crucial. In my view, it would be better to call them The Tree of Life, and The Tree of Death, because that's what they truly represent.
 
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Monksailor

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An amusing but utterly pointless debate so far, sadly ignoring the significance of your OP.
My thoughts EXACTLY. I was just sharing an observation I had recently made of a truth that I had overlooked due to it being overshadowed by the focus being directed to the ORIGINAL SIN and CREATION OF MAN by all of my past teachers and expounders. The TREE OF LIFE was right there in the middle of the GARDEN, also, and man was told by God that he could FREELY eat of it, but somehow, he never did. He ate from the FORBIDDEN tree or the tree of K of G & E, or tree of DEATH, as you put it ("for you shall surely die") first which then got him kicked out and banned from the TREE of LIFE, till Jesus, anyway. Satan really tried to destroy man's fellowship with God, but he only bruised his heel while his head will be crushed and is crushed by the power of the SON of man and GOD.
 
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Francis Drake

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My thoughts EXACTLY. I was just sharing an observation I had recently made of a truth that I had overlooked due to it being overshadowed by the focus being directed to the ORIGINAL SIN and CREATION OF MAN by all of my past teachers and expounders. The TREE OF LIFE was right there in the middle of the GARDEN, also, and man was told by God that he could FREELY eat of it, but somehow, he never did. He ate from the FORBIDDEN tree or the tree of K of G & E, or tree of DEATH, as you put it ("for you shall surely die") first which then got him kicked out and banned from the TREE of LIFE, till Jesus, anyway. Satan really tried to destroy man's fellowship with God, but he only bruised his heel while his head will be crushed and is crushed by the power of the SON of man and GOD.

Christians seem to think our objective is to discern from the Tree of Knowledge that which is "Good" as opposed to that which is "Evil".
They completely forget that ALL fruit from the Tree of Knowledge brings death.
Both Good and Evil from that tree bring death because it is man centred and Godless.

Knowledge is just a matter of information or facts, like the grass is green and the sky is blue, or the earth revolves around the sun etc. Knowledge has no life of itself, it is neutral.
In contrast, wisdom has life in it, that's why we are instructed to seek wisdom from God like Solomon did.

Scripture says that Wisdom is a Tree of Life
Prov3v13Happy is the man who finds wisdom, And the man who gains understanding;
14For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver, And her gain than fine gold.
15She is more precious than rubies, And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her.
16Length of days is in her right hand, In her left hand riches and honor.
17Her ways are ways of pleasantness, And all her paths are peace.
18She (Wisdom) is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who retain her.


Seek the wisdom of God and eat from the Tree of Life each day"
 
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Studyman

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Christians seem to think our objective is to discern from the Tree of Knowledge that which is "Good" as opposed to that which is "Evil".
They completely forget that ALL fruit from the Tree of Knowledge brings death.
Both Good and Evil from that tree bring death because it is man centred and Godless.

Knowledge is just a matter of information or facts, like the grass is green and the sky is blue, or the earth revolves around the sun etc. Knowledge has no life of itself, it is neutral.
In contrast, wisdom has life in it, that's why we are instructed to seek wisdom from God like Solomon did.

Scripture says that Wisdom is a Tree of Life
Prov3v13Happy is the man who finds wisdom, And the man who gains understanding;
14For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver, And her gain than fine gold.
15She is more precious than rubies, And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her.
16Length of days is in her right hand, In her left hand riches and honor.
17Her ways are ways of pleasantness, And all her paths are peace.
18She (Wisdom) is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who retain her.


Seek the wisdom of God and eat from the Tree of Life each day"

Yes, true wisdom comes from the mouth of God. As with us all, Eve was given two trees, actually, two voices to consider. One from God giving her instructions on how to live forever, and one from the "other voice" trying to convince her God was lying to her. "Thou shall surely not not die".

As this same God also said before becoming a Man in the person of Jesus;

Duet 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

As an example to us, Eve chose the "other voice" and rejected the Word of God which became Flesh. We can see the condemnation which comes from making the wrong choice.

He said the same thing to us as the Messiah.

"Man shall not live by Bread alone, but by Every Word that Proceeds from the Mouth of God."

Great topic.
 
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Monksailor

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Christians seem to think our objective is to discern from the Tree of Knowledge that which is "Good" as opposed to that which is "Evil".
They completely forget that ALL fruit from the Tree of Knowledge brings death.
Both Good and Evil from that tree bring death because it is man centred and Godless.

Knowledge is just a matter of information or facts

I suppose some Christians do think that way but a tree bears a singular fruit. You do not find apples and oranges growing on the same tree. I understand it to be a tree of a singular knowledge of a dichotomy, possibly implying an ability to discern between good and evil, judgement?
It is impossible to know what is good without knowing what is evil and visa versa, right? If something is good then that mere fact implies that there is simultaneously something bad in contrast and visa versa. What makes something of good report is that fact that there also exists a contrasting bad report. I think that their existence is inseparable in our realm here on earth in our dispensation, IMO. The Apostle Paul speaks of such in his wrestling described in Ro ch 7, I believe.

And, IMO, wisdom is a tree of life for earthly operations but not the TREE OF LIFE for spiritually eternal life in heaven. If the later were so, one would have to believe that they earned their way to eternity in heaven through their own wisdom. Some do actually believe that, from what I have read here on CF.
 
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Francis Drake

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I suppose some Christians do think that way but a tree bears a singular fruit. You do not find apples and oranges growing on the same tree. I understand it to be a tree of a singular knowledge of a dichotomy, possibly implying an ability to discern between good and evil, judgement?
It is impossible to know what is good without knowing what is evil and visa versa, right? If something is good then that mere fact implies that there is simultaneously something bad in contrast and visa versa. What makes something of good report is that fact that there also exists a contrasting bad report. I think that their existence is inseparable in our realm here on earth in our dispensation, IMO. The Apostle Paul speaks of such in his wrestling described in Ro ch 7, I believe.

And, IMO, wisdom is a tree of life for earthly operations but not the TREE OF LIFE for spiritually eternal life in heaven. If the later were so, one would have to believe that they earned their way to eternity in heaven through their own wisdom. Some do actually believe that, from what I have read here on CF.

When Adam and Eve listened to the serpent, what was on offer from the Tree of Knowledge, was the idea of Adam being like God!
Gen3v5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I don't believe the Tree of Knowledge of Good or Evil itself was the motherlode of accumulated knowledge, like Wikipedia, or the Smithsonian or Oxford University etc.
No, in choosing to eat of that Tree, Adam was making the decision that he could use knowledge alone, both Good and Evil, as the sole basis for his dominion over the planet.

It was a decision that completely excluded God from the equation.

The moment Adam made the decision to go for knowledge instead of wisdom, his spiritual union with God died a sudden death.
Adam and Eve had committed spiritual suicide.

Their spiritual light extinguished, and they saw they were naked.

Although God had told Adam to have dominion over the planet, it was obviously never meant to be at the exclusion of God himself! That was why the Tree of Life was also there in the midst of the garden.

God created Adam, body, soul and spirit. In my understanding, the correct order of Adam's tripartite being was that his human spirit was intended to be in communion with God, and that human spirit should rule over his soul, which then ruled his body.
Adam's rebellion reversed that order, placing his soul at the top, relegating his human spirit to insignificance.
That is the position man finds himself in today. Learning to take note of our spirit as opposed to our intellect is the perpetual problem we face every day.
 
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"In the midst of the street thereof, and on both sides of the river, was the tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruits every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Revelation 22:2)

The tree of life is then a unique tree in that it bears a number of sorts of fruit in due course. I believe what the Revelation verse is implying is that the eating of the tree will be an ongoing aspect of eternal life; just as eating the eucharistic gifts are an ongoing aspect of church life.

It could then be that Adam and Eve were eating of the tree of life prior to their expulsion from the garden. The verse in Genesis 3 reads: "and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" It does not necessarily follow from the parameters of the text that they had not been eating the fruit of that tree, only that if they continued to they would live forever. This could present part of a solution to how they were living so long in those ancient days.
 
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All4Christ

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Many of the Church Fathers in the Orthodox Church viewed the trees as part of the path to theosis. All things in the garden were declared “good” by God, but Adam and Eve were not yet spiritually mature enough to partake of the tree of knowledge and evil. It was not inherently evil, but was dangerous for those who were too immature spiritually to truly understand their own nature. The tree of life was also part of that path to theosis. It held the energy of the cause of life and was only to be eaten by those who deserve to live and not die (with theosis).

Upon their disobedience, they were expelled from Paradise and all in it, including the Tree of Life. Jesus is the true Tree of Life now: the source of life and the provider of Eternal Life.

This is from St John of Damascus’ commentary on Genesis (Paradise - St John of Damascus)

In its midst God planted the tree of life and the tree of knowledge. The tree of knowledge was for trial, and proof, and exercise of man's obedience and disobedience; and hence it was named the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or else it was because to those who partook of it was given power to know their own nature. Now this is a good thing for those who are mature, but an evil thing for the immature and those whose appetites are too strong, being like solid food to tender babes still in need of milk. For our Creator, God, did not intend us to be burdened with care and troubled about many things, nor to take thought about, or make provision for, our own life. But this at length was Adam's fate; for he tasted and knew that he was naked and made a girdle round about him; for he took fig-leaves and girded himself about. But before they took of the fruit, They were both naked. Adam and Eve, and were not ashamed. For God meant that we should be thus free from passion, and this is indeed the mark of a mind absolutely void of passion.

The tree of life, on the other hand, was a tree having the energy that is the cause of life, or to be eaten only by those who deserve to live and are not subject to death. Some, indeed, have pictured Paradise as a realm of sense, and others as a realm of mind. But it seems to me, that, just as man is a creature, in whom we find both sense and mind blended together, in like manner also man's most holy temple combines the properties of sense and mind, and has this twofold expression: for, as we said, the life in the body is spent in the most divine and lovely region, while the life in the soul is passed in a place far more sublime and of more surpassing beauty, where God makes His home, and where He wraps man about as with a glorious garment, and robes him in His grace, and delights and sustains him like an angel with the sweetest of all fruits, the contemplation of Himself.
 
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Francis Drake

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"In the midst of the street thereof, and on both sides of the river, was the tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruits every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Revelation 22:2)

The tree of life is then a unique tree in that it bears a number of sorts of fruit in due course. I believe what the Revelation verse is implying is that the eating of the tree will be an ongoing aspect of eternal life; just as eating the eucharistic gifts are an ongoing aspect of church life.

It could then be that Adam and Eve were eating of the tree of life prior to their expulsion from the garden. The verse in Genesis 3 reads: "and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" It does not necessarily follow from the parameters of the text that they had not been eating the fruit of that tree, only that if they continued to they would live forever. This could present part of a solution to how they were living so long in those ancient days.
It's an interesting point, but I disagree.
The garden was full of all sorts of fruitful trees for them to eat, but in the midst of the garden were two very different trees, one bringing death, the other bringing life.

In my view, by implication, the Tree of Life was the one Adam and Eve were intended to eat, but once they rebelled, they were blocked for their own sakes.

Adam and Eve were created innocent, but had to make a freewill choice of whether to serve the Lord or go their own way. Had they sought the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever in that eternal bliss, and forever afterwards, Satan would have been powerless to destroy their lives.
 
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When Adam and Eve listened to the serpent, what was on offer from the Tree of Knowledge, was the idea of Adam being like God!
Gen3v5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I don't believe the Tree of Knowledge of Good or Evil itself was the motherlode of accumulated knowledge, like Wikipedia, or the Smithsonian or Oxford University etc.
No, in choosing to eat of that Tree, Adam was making the decision that he could use knowledge alone, both Good and Evil, as the sole basis for his dominion over the planet.

It was a decision that completely excluded God from the equation.

The moment Adam made the decision to go for knowledge instead of wisdom, his spiritual union with God died a sudden death.
Adam and Eve had committed spiritual suicide.

Their spiritual light extinguished, and they saw they were naked.

Although God had told Adam to have dominion over the planet, it was obviously never meant to be at the exclusion of God himself! That was why the Tree of Life was also there in the midst of the garden.

God created Adam, body, soul and spirit. In my understanding, the correct order of Adam's tripartite being was that his human spirit was intended to be in communion with God, and that human spirit should rule over his soul, which then ruled his body.
Adam's rebellion reversed that order, placing his soul at the top, relegating his human spirit to insignificance.
That is the position man finds himself in today. Learning to take note of our spirit as opposed to our intellect is the perpetual problem we face every day.

Good points, except that Adam was a reluctant participant just as was God in the original rebellion. Lucifer forced God to take responsibility (by taking action) just as Eve forced Adam.

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
 
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