LDS The Infallibility of the Prophets

Leaf473 · Oct 23, 2020

He is the way said:
Nothing will ever change my love for and faith in Jesus Christ.

Hi again, He is the way,

On your above statement we can wholeheartedly agree!

I think where we differ is on whether there is an organization here on Earth to which we must pledge unwavering allegiance.

He is the way · Oct 23, 2020

dzheremi said:
This is a very important point. Heresies like Mormonism are not dangerous or bad just because they're theologically wrong in some sort of detached, academic/intellectual sense -- they have actual deleterious effects on the peoples' conception of God and their ability to have faith in God. They really do damage people's faith, often fatally.

ALL of those who keep the commandments of LOVE WILL be saved. Christ promised it and His word is truth. He also taught us how that He and the Father are one in glory and perfection:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

dzheremi · Oct 23, 2020

Do you ever stop to think before you post a 'reply', HITW, "Hmm...is what I'm about to type actually related to the post I'm quoting in any way, shape, or form?"? If you don't, you really should.

He is the way · Oct 23, 2020

dzheremi said:
Do you ever stop to think before you post a 'reply', HITW, "Hmm...is what I'm about to type actually related to the post I'm quoting in any way, shape, or form?"? If you don't, you really should.

You said: " they have actual deleterious effects on the peoples' conception of God and their ability to have faith in God. They really do damage people's faith, often fatally."
I responded by showing that the ONLY way to really damage people's faith is for then NOT to keep the commandments. When a person keeps the commandments they are guaranteed eternal life. The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints teaches people to keep the commandments which is in NO way damaging them fatally. Teaching people that they do not need to keep the commandments is what is fatal damage. The whole duty of man is to fear God and keep the commandments:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

dzheremi · Oct 23, 2020

He is the way said:
You said: " they have actual deleterious effects on the peoples' conception of God and their ability to have faith in God. They really do damage people's faith, often fatally."
I responded by showing that the ONLY way to really damage people's faith is for then NOT to keep the commandments.

What are you talking about? How does what you quoted show that?

When a person keeps the commandments they are guaranteed eternal life. The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints teaches people to keep the commandments which is in NO way damaging them fatally.

You are not addressing what I've written in my reply, nor (much more importantly) what was in the original post that I was replying to. When someone says "They taught me false things and framed things in a way to mislead me" and "to find out that these things I thought I knew were not true...it made the Spirit who'd given me confirmation suspect", it's not really answering their objections by repeating that you teach people to keep the commandments. The objection is about the way that things are taught and confirmed, so the answer to that objection should be about the way that things are taught and confirmed, not about "keeping the commandments". You are once again using other people's posts as an excuse to circle back to the things you feel more comfortable discussing, whether or not they're actually relevant to what we're actually talking about in this thread. Stop doing that.

He is the way · Oct 23, 2020

dzheremi said:
What are you talking about? How does what you quoted show that?

You are not addressing what I've written in my reply, nor (much more importantly) what was in the original post that I was replying to. When someone says "They taught me false things and framed things in a way to mislead me" and "to find out that these things I thought I knew were not true...it made the Spirit who'd given me confirmation suspect", it's not really answering their objections by repeating that you teach people to keep the commandments. The objection is about the way that things are taught and confirmed, so the answer to that objection should be about the way that things are taught and confirmed, not about "keeping the commandments". You are once again using other people's posts as an excuse to circle back to the things you feel more comfortable discussing, whether or not they're actually relevant to what we're actually talking about in this thread. Stop doing that.

It is very relevant because The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is NOT teaching anything that damages anyone's faith in Jesus Christ. We do NOT have actual deleterious effects on the peoples' conception of God. We believe in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ as described in the Bible. NOT some man made concept. Those who want to know God can do so by keeping the commandments:

(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 5)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Leaf473 · Oct 24, 2020

He is the way said:
We believe in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ as described in the Bible.

I'm honestly trying to figure out how this works in an LDS person's mind, HITW.

How can a person both say that the Bible was copied by apostates with great sloppiness and malice, and then say that they believe in the God and Christ described in that Bible?

To bring this in line with the topic of the thread, has an authority, as in a modern-day prophet, said that the KJV is accurate and reliable?

Leaf473 · Oct 24, 2020

He is the way said:
When a person keeps the commandments they are guaranteed eternal life.

By commandments do you mean all of the commandments in the King James bible, including those given through Moses in the wilderness?

HIM · Oct 24, 2020

He is the way said:
It is very relevant because The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is NOT teaching anything that damages anyone's faith in Jesus Christ. .

Do you teach that all were in heaven with God prior to Creation? That all will return to God. And that our place in His Kingdom will depend on what we do with this life. But regardless we will all be there.

Do I have that right?

HIM · Oct 24, 2020

Leaf473 said:
Hi again, He is the way,

On your above statement we can wholeheartedly agree!

I think where we differ is on whether there is an organization here on Earth to which we must pledge unwavering allegiance.

The organization would be the Body of Christ the Temple of God.

dzheremi · Oct 24, 2020

He is the way said:
It is very relevant because The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is NOT teaching anything that damages anyone's faith in Jesus Christ. We do NOT have actual deleterious effects on the peoples' conception of God.

You don't get to declare that as though your belief in your religion somehow erases other peoples' experiences in it, though. There are plenty of ex-Mormons who say things very similar to what Hrairoo wrote in that post, and simply claiming that they're all wrong is your own defense mechanism to prevent having to ever look at the damage your religion does, not some kind of impartial fact or whatever.

We believe in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ as described in the Bible. NOT some man made concept. Those who want to know God can do so by keeping the commandments

How does this in any way address Hrairoo's post when he brought up the doubt that Mormonism made him feel about the spirit that it says would confirm the truth of your religion to him, not about the identities or attributes of Christ or God the Father, or about keeping the commandments?

He is the way · Oct 24, 2020

Leaf473 said:
I'm honestly trying to figure out how this works in an LDS person's mind, HITW.

How can a person both say that the Bible was copied by apostates with great sloppiness and malice, and then say that they believe in the God and Christ described in that Bible?

To bring this in line with the topic of the thread, has an authority, as in a modern-day prophet, said that the KJV is accurate and reliable?

No one said that the Bible is completely inaccurate or unreliable. Even the JST did not make that many changes, but it does correct many of the inaccuracies that are found in the Bible. For instance God does NOT repent. The Bible itself speaks against notions such as "once saved always saved", and that "the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are of one substance". Those ideas are just pure fantasy. As I have said many times Jesus has shown us how He and the Father are one. They are one in glory, perfection, and unity.

He is the way · Oct 24, 2020

Leaf473 said:
By commandments do you mean all of the commandments in the King James bible, including those given through Moses in the wilderness?

The two great commandments of LOVE encompass all of the commandments:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

He is the way · Oct 24, 2020

HIM said:
Do you teach that all were in heaven with God prior to Creation? That all will return to God. And that our place in His Kingdom will depend on what we do with this life. But regardless we will all be there.

Do I have that right?

Yes we do believe that all were with God before we came to earth:

(Old Testament | Genesis 2:1)

1 THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 1:5)

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We will all be in Paradise or spirit prison depending on how we lived our lives and the choices we made.

He is the way · Oct 24, 2020

dzheremi said:
You don't get to declare that as though your belief in your religion somehow erases other peoples' experiences in it, though. There are plenty of ex-Mormons who say things very similar to what Hrairoo wrote in that post, and simply claiming that they're all wrong is your own defense mechanism to prevent having to ever look at the damage your religion does, not some kind of impartial fact or whatever.

When a person makes a statement they better be prepared with some kind of evidence to back it up. I just don't see any real evidence to back that up. we know that all men are imperfect, but when quoting God (thus sayeth the Lord God) it better be right.

dzheremi said:
How does this in any way address Hrairoo's post when he brought up the doubt that Mormonism made him feel about the spirit that it says would confirm the truth of your religion to him, not about the identities or attributes of Christ or God the Father, or about keeping the commandments?

It is very important to have faith in and know the only true God and Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

This is not possible unless a person keeps the commandments.

He is the way · Oct 24, 2020

Leaf473 said:
Hi again, He is the way,

On your above statement we can wholeheartedly agree!

I think where we differ is on whether there is an organization here on Earth to which we must pledge unwavering allegiance.

It is important that we do pledge unwavering allegiance to the Lord:

(Old Testament | 2 Kings 23:1 - 3)

1 AND the king sent, and they gathered unto him all the elders of Judah and of Jerusalem.
2 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD.
3 ¶ And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

Is it easy to make this kind of commitment? Does the Lord expect anything less of us? The answer is NO and NO. That being said, that is the commitment we, as members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, are to make. This commitment should not be made casually.

Leaf473 · Oct 24, 2020

HIM said:
The organization would be the Body of Christ the Temple of God.

Hi HIM, nice to meet you!

In your view, does that body of Christ have a visible expression, for example a particular system of priests and bishops?

Leaf473 · Oct 24, 2020

He is the way said:
No one said that the Bible is completely inaccurate or unreliable.

How inaccurate or unreliable has a modern-day prophet said the King James Bible is?

Leaf473 · Oct 24, 2020

He is the way said:
The two great commandments of LOVE encompass all of the commandments:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I agree that if a person keeps those two commandments they do not need to be concerned about any other commandment, such as commandments about adultery or tithing.

Is that what you're saying too?

Leaf473 · Oct 24, 2020

He is the way said:
It is important that we do pledge unwavering allegiance to the Lord:

(Old Testament | 2 Kings 23:1 - 3)

1 AND the king sent, and they gathered unto him all the elders of Judah and of Jerusalem.
2 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD.
3 ¶ And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

Is it easy to make this kind of commitment? Does the Lord expect anything less of us? The answer is NO and NO. That being said, that is the commitment we, as members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, are to make. This commitment should not be made casually.

Absolutely, wholehearted allegiance to God.

I believe I talked about an organization here on Earth to which we must pledge unwavering allegiance.
I think this issue is implied in the OP where he talks about LDS confessing "I believe that the (LDS) church is true."

I don't think you and I differ in our pledging allegiance to God, it's in our pledging allegiance to an earthly organization.

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