The church must be catholic!

coffee4u said:

They are asking do you follow what God says or what the Pope says?

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I follow what the Church says. "He that hear you hear Me, he that rejects you, rejects Me, and rejects the One who sent Me.

coffee4u said:

@garee might want to cut back on the wall of text, its too much to read.

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you don't say.

concretecamper said:

I follow what the Church says. "He that hear you hear Me, he that rejects you, rejects Me, and rejects the One who sent Me.
you don't say.

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I follow the word of God as in all things written in the law and the prophets.(sola scriptura) and not the law of the fathers.

In that way no man can serve two written laws as a teaching master..(1) those of men and (2)those of our unseen father. Love one hate the other. Hate one love the other.

By looking to and seeking the approval the earthly fathers' oral traditions written down, men lose the context of the Spirit of Christ that works in the born again believer.

2 Timothy records his loving commandment to study in order to seek the approval of God not seen. He does not inform us seek the approval of venerated mankind that lord it over the non-venerable pew sitters..

The Son of man Jesus the "chief apostle" (sent one) sent from the father did not do the will of his own flesh .

Remember its the work of two working together in perfect harmony and mutual submission that brings us the peace of God giving us His understanding of faith.. Reject the Son the same rejects the unseen Father.

John 12: 48-50 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak

It what sent ones called apostles do bring the word of the unseen father .King of kings and Lord of Lords.

The same can be seen with the apostle Samuel in the Old testament. This is when faithless elders gathered themselves (not called by God) together because of their jealousy of the surrounding pagan nation that walked by sight.

1 Samuel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.
And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Same principle as John. Reject the one who gives words to his sent ones the same reject the unseen Father who inspired them from heaven.

The first century reformation restored the order.

garee said:

I follow the word of God as in all things written in the law and the prophets.(sola scriptura) and not the law of the fathers

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scripture does not tell us all of God's Word is recorded in scripture. Scripture also does not tell us to follow only scripture. SS fails the scriptural test.

garee said:

I thanks for the reply.

I would agree if we obey the loving commandment of God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 we can seek the approval of the eternal one who alone is the infallible good Master as Teacher..

In Job He infallibly informs us he is not a man and neither is there any infallible fleshly man that stands between our heavenly Holy Father not seen and man seen as a umpire called a Daysman or what some label as a Pope.

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

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Jesus Christ is both God and Man. 100% God and 100% Man. Job is longing for what Christ is in the NT. We read the OT through the lens of the NT, not the other way around.

Job 9:32–35 (ESV)
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him, that we should come to trial together. There is no arbiter between us, who might lay his hand on us both. Let him take his rod away from me, and let not dread of him terrify me. Then I would speak without fear of him, for I am not so in myself.

cf 1 Jn 2:1–2
2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is what Job longed to see. This verse is what we call type and shadow of what is to come in Christ.
Jn 1:1–3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Jn 10:26–30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Jn 8:57–58
57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

Col 2:9–10
For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

While I am no defender of the papacy but can you not see that you have set yourself up as a little pope?

garee said:

John 14: 25;26 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

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This is where Jesus is speaking of Sending the God the Holy Sprint. The "He" or ἐκεῖνος in the sentence is not referring to the Father but to the Holy Spirit. The Grammar in the Greek doesn't allow for the reading you are presenting.

ἐκεῖνος, η, ο demonstr. pron. (Hom.+) pert. to an entity mentioned or understood and viewed as relatively remote in the discourse setting, that person, that thing, that (‘that over there’; opp. οὗτος ‘this’)

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 301). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

25 Ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν παρʼ ὑμῖν μένων 26 ὁ δὲ παράκλητος, τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, ὃ πέμψει ὁ πατὴρ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου, ἐκεῖνος ὑμᾶς διδάξει πάντα καὶ ὑπομνήσει ὑμᾶς πάντα ἃ εἶπον ὑμῖν [ἐγώ].

Aland, B., Aland, K., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (Eds.). (2014). The Greek New Testament (Fifth Revised Edition, Jn 14:25–26). Stuttgart, Germany: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

A better translation like the ESV gets it right: Jn 14:25–26
25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

The Holy Spirit is a Person and not a thing.

garee said:

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

I am just following all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) which begins in Genesis 1 and ends in the last chapter Revelation 21. sealed with 7 seals and warning not to add or subtract form the whole Bible.

By it and through it, as it is written we can seek the approval of Him who does lovingly commands us to do so. (Not just a good suggestion)

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2 Co 4:5–7
5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.


Yeah, that verse doesn't say what you think it says. I can see why you wouldn't quote the context. Because the verse actually lends itself to refuting your dualistic almost gnostic reading of the Bible. Meaning Spirit = Good, flesh=bad. That's not the historic Christian view.

garee said:

2 Timothy 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Men who follow other men in a hierarchy the self-appointed venerable lording it over the non-venerable (Kings, princes and fathers) they perform it as a law unto themselves which some call “apostolic succession”. They are revealed as those follow the pagan foundation. “Out of sight out of mind” (who needs a God as a Father not seen) . They are shown murdering men and woman, Christians in Acts 22.

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Lets put that back into context:

2 Ti 2:14–19
14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

This an apostolic exhortation to teach the faith that the apostles taught. The church catholic is charged with preserving that faith so that folks don't step out on their own and invent new doctrines.

concretecamper said:

scripture does not tell us all of God's Word is recorded in scripture. Scripture also does not tell us to follow only scripture. SS fails the scriptural test.

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The scripture says He provides the Holy Spirit to Keep the laws of God not break them so the church that felt they had superiority over the word of God written with His own hand and changed His laws its not coming from a clean spirit.

John 14:15-18
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

God Bless

Athanasius377 said:

This is where Jesus is speaking of Sending the God the Holy Sprint. The "He" or ἐκεῖνος in the sentence is not referring to the Father but to the Holy Spirit. The Grammar in the Greek doesn't allow for the reading you are presenting.

ἐκεῖνος, η, ο demonstr. pron. (Hom.+) pert. to an entity mentioned or understood and viewed as relatively remote in the discourse setting, that person, that thing, that (‘that over there’; opp. οὗτος ‘this’)

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 301). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

25 Ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν παρʼ ὑμῖν μένων 26 ὁ δὲ παράκλητος, τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, ὃ πέμψει ὁ πατὴρ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου, ἐκεῖνος ὑμᾶς διδάξει πάντα καὶ ὑπομνήσει ὑμᾶς πάντα ἃ εἶπον ὑμῖν [ἐγώ].

Aland, B., Aland, K., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (Eds.). (2014). The Greek New Testament (Fifth Revised Edition, Jn 14:25–26). Stuttgart, Germany: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

A better translation like the ESV gets it right: Jn 14:25–26
25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

The Holy Spirit is a Person and not a thing.

2 Co 4:5–7
5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.


Yeah, that verse doesn't say what you think it says. I can see why you wouldn't quote the context. Because the verse actually lends itself to refuting your dualistic almost gnostic reading of the Bible. Meaning Spirit = Good, flesh=bad. That's not the historic Christian view.



Lets put that back into context:

2 Ti 2:14–19
14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

This an apostolic exhortation to teach the faith that the apostles taught. The church catholic is charged with preserving that faith so that folks don't step out on their own and invent new doctrines.

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Thanks for the reply.

I would offer. Spirit = Good, flesh= dying dead powerless .as in: "You shall surely die".No ands ifs or buts.

The Spirit of the faith. The faith of Christ preserves and defends the word of God by as it is written. . we can believe god not seen.. .it is our Armor that we are to put on and keep on .It defends us from the god of this world the spirit of error.

You would have to ask oneself .What kind of new doctrine? Some doctrines of men as oral traditions make the word of God without effect.

In that way. No man could serve two good teaching masters.

(1) The oral traditions of the fathers as a law of men inspired from the earth. Or the doctrines of God as they are written .they fall from above down to the earth like rain or showers .earthly inspired or heavenly doctrines?

It would appear you have added new meaning to the word "sent one" . Malak in Hebrew, apostle in the Greek . I would offer how beautiful are the sent ones feet shod with the gospel. . as that which the gates of hell could never prevail against Again as sent ones.

Why add new meaning to "those sent ".( Malak. . Apostle) They are not the one doing the sending The Holy Spirit not seen works in them to both will and perform his good pleasure . We should be live without murmuring like Jonas in the old testament. He wished to die rather than doing what he was sent to. ( Philippians 2:13-14 ) Jesus as the Son of man is the chief apostle and High priest of the new manner. sent by the father. He had delight in doing the will of His Holy Father and not his own will of the flesh.

garee said:

Yes, no different than any others persons private interpretation or commentary on the word of God inspired from above..

I don't think the Holy Spirit would to study his written word as a way of seeking His approval (2 Timothy 2:15 ) and then say seek the approval of another's man commentary.

The bible says there must be private interpretation as heiresses our opinions among us. And it also informs us that we cannot judge them unless they deny the Lord that bought us.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

In Act 24 we can se the work of sola scriptura with two sects that put aside their differences that lord in over the non venerable pew sitters going after Paul if the new sect (heresy) called the Nazarene sect or called the Way .The first denomination listed on the new testament.

They tried to prove their private as a law of the fathers(legion) rose above the interpretation of the Holy Spirit (all things written in the law and the prophet). Paul explained to them that which they call heresy(sola scriptura) he worshiped or venerated our unseen Holy Father . Rather than venerating men as if they were in the place of God by their own law oral traditions of man..

Act 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

I would think we would worship the God of the fathers, kings and princes rather than putting them in His unseen place (heaven?

What about you? Things of men seen or those of God not seen the eternal ?

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Again garee, giving me your fallible, non-authoritive opinion of what 'you' believe Scripture is saying (which could be in error) is not addressing the questions. I will post them one last time, and will break and number them as to simplify them.

1. Aside from Jesus, is it your understanding and belief, that when in Romans 3:23 where the passage say's, "for all have sinned" do you believe that "all" absolutely means "all" without exception?"

2. Could you please show the verse in John chapter 6 where Jesus say's that He "alone" did not do the will of the flesh?"

Earlier, you posted that it is your belief that Jesus was the only human who was infallible. So....

3. Was not Paul infallible when he wrote his epistles?

4. Were the gospel writers not infallible when they wrote the gospels?

5. If they weren't, are you essentially saying there could be errors in the Bible...that the Bible is not infallible?

6. Do you believe the writers of Scripture were infallible or not?"

7.What, for a Christian, is the pillar and ground of the truth?

8. Is it the Bible?

There you go my friend. It is my hope you will answer each question directly. Which by the way, most could be answered with a yes or no.

If you decide against answering them, I can only surmise you have either no intention of answering them, or theologically you can't, which in either case would be disappointing.


Have a Blessed day!

concretecamper said:

scripture does not tell us all of God's Word is recorded in scripture. Scripture also does not tell us to follow only scripture. SS fails the scriptural test.

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Falls short of whose spiritual test of the fathers or kings? ? After all we do not wrestles against the temporal things seen corrupted flesh and blood.

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Its not what does one mans oral tradition or personal commentary on the word of God say puffed against another's.

Speaking directly to that the apostles where given the words of the Holy Spirit that reveals to us they are "sent ones" not "venerable ones" . Paul inspired by the unseen Holy father would dare any man go "above all things written in the law and prophets" (sola scriptura) . Paul would never glory in his own flesh and say it was not freely in its entirety given by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version )(KJV Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure(parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

imge said:

The scripture says He provides the Holy Spirit to Keep the laws of God not break them so the church that felt they had superiority over the word of God written with His own hand and changed His laws its not coming from a clean spirit.

John 14:15-18
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

God Bless

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this is all well and good, but it doesnt refute the points I made.

garee said:

Falls short of whose spiritual test of the fathers or kings? ?

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it falls short according to scripture itself, it is that simple.

concretecamper said:

this is all well and good, but it doesnt refute the points I made.

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Your point is the Catholic church thinks it has the authority to change the Bible. The Catholic church changed the commandments of God and changed the day God asked us to Remember, the day He called Holy, Sanctified and Blessed- Seventh day Sabbath to unbiblical Sunday. And the Catholic church admits it was not from any direction in the Scriptures. Do you follow the word of God or a church and traditions of man? I prefer following the word of God.

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 199

imge said:

Your point is the Catholic church thinks it has the authority to change the Bible.

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where did I ever say this?

imge said:

The Catholic church changed the commandments of God and changed the day God asked us to Remember, the day He called Holy, Sanctified and Blessed- Seventh day Sabbath to unbiblical Sunday

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when did the Catholic Church change the commandments and the Sabbath?

imge said:

Do you follow the word of God or a church and traditions of man? I prefer following the word of God.

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I follow Christ. And He said listen to the Church.

imge said:

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 199

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thank you for admitting that the Catholic Church was around in the 1st Century. When was Ellen White born?

garee said:

Thanks for the reply.

I would offer. Spirit = Good, flesh= dying dead powerless .as in: "You shall surely die".No ands ifs or buts.

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Except that God created the flesh and it was good. Not just good but very good. Gen 1:31. Since the fall and sin entering the creation the flesh is utterly corrupt but will be restored in the bodily resurrection. 1 thess 4:14-18.

garee said:

The Spirit of the faith. The faith of Christ preserves and defends the word of God by as it is written. . we can believe god not seen.. .it is our Armor that we are to put on and keep on .It defends us from the god of this world the spirit of error.

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Um, no. It is not the faith of Christ its rather the Faith IN Christ that is the armor of God. Faith has an object. It is not some nebulous substance floating somewhere in the ether. This is the defense against the schemes of the devil. The Sword of the Spirt, the Word of God is the offensive weapon against the same.

Eph 6:10–18 (ESV)
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.

garee said:

You would have to ask oneself .What kind of new doctrine? Some doctrines of men as oral traditions make the word of God without effect.

In that way. No man could serve two good teaching masters.

(1) The oral traditions of the fathers as a law of men inspired from the earth. Or the doctrines of God as they are written .they fall from above down to the earth like rain or showers .earthly inspired or heavenly doctrines?

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This lacks any coherence. If you were going for poetic points it didn't work. The doctrine we teach is straight from the Scripture. You know, the Rule of Faith that the apostles taught under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit later written down and recognized by the church catholic.

garee said:

It would appear you have added new meaning to the word "sent one" . Malak in Hebrew, apostle in the Greek . I would offer how beautiful are the sent ones feet shod with the gospel. . as that which the gates of hell could never prevail against Again as sent ones.

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Wrong. Malak, or מַלְאָךְ corresponding word in the Greek is ἄγγελος of which we derrive the term "Angel". And it simply means "Messenger", not "sent one".

מַלְאָךְ, 1. (human) messenger;
—2. messengers of God
—3. heavenly messengers, angels: the angel of God (of Yahweh)
Lexical examples removed for sake of space.
Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (1994–2000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., pp. 585–586). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

Apostle,
ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
① of messengers without extraordinary status delegate, envoy, messenger (opp. ὁ πέμψας) J 13:16. Of Epaphroditus, messenger of the Philippians Phil 2:25.—2 Cor 8:23.
② of messengers with extraordinary status, esp. of God’s messenger, envoy (cp. Epict. 3, 22, 23 of Cynic wise men: ἄγγελος ἀπὸ τ. Διὸς ἀπέσταλται).
ⓐ of prophets Lk 11:49; Rv 18:20; cp. 2:2; Eph 3:5.

ⓑ of Christ (w. ἀρχιερεύς) Hb 3:1 (cp. ApcEsdr 2:1 p. 25, 29 T.; Just., A I, 12, 9; the extra-Christian firman Sb 7240, 4f οὐκ ἔστιν θεὸς εἰ μὴ ὁ θεὸς μόνος. Μααμετ ἀπόστολος θεοῦ). GWetter, ‘D. Sohn Gottes’ 1916, 26ff.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 122). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

There is a corresponding word, שָׁלִיחַ but it does not appear anywhere in the OT.

garee said:

Why add new meaning to "those sent ".( Malak. . Apostle) They are not the one doing the sending The Holy Spirit not seen works in them to both will and perform his good pleasure . We should be live without murmuring like Jonas in the old testament. He wished to die rather than doing what he was sent to. ( Philippians 2:13-14 ) Jesus as the Son of man is the chief apostle and High priest of the new manner. sent by the father. He had delight in doing the will of His Holy Father and not his own will of the flesh.

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That's because Jesus is also God in human flesh. God the Father Decrees, God the Son accomplishes and God the Holy Spirit Applies. Salvation is a Trinitarian act.

concretecamper said:

where did I ever say this?
when did the Catholic Church change the commandments and the Sabbath?
I follow Christ. And He said listen to the Church.
thank you for admitting that the Catholic Church was around in the 1st Century. When was Ellen White born?

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That was a quote, not something I said or believe . I think the quote speaks for itself.

Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.
—The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. earth pass,
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

imge said:

Your point is the Catholic church thinks it has the authority to change the Bible. The Catholic church changed the commandments of God and changed the day God asked us to Remember, the day He called Holy, Sanctified and Blessed- Seventh day Sabbath to unbiblical Sunday. And the Catholic church admits it was not from any direction in the Scriptures. Do you follow the word of God or a church and traditions of man? I prefer following the word of God.

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 199

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You really ascribe far more things to the Roman Catholic Church than they can be responsible for. I hope you understand that both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches claim that they are the only church which existed during the times your are referring to. It is just as (un)reasonable to level these charges against any of the Orthodox Churches.

Fidelibus said:

Again garee, giving me your fallible, non-authoritive opinion of what 'you' believe Scripture is saying (which could be in error) is not addressing the questions. I will post them one last time, and will break and number them as to simplify them.

1. Aside from Jesus, is it your understanding and belief, that when in Romans 3:23 where the passage say's, "for all have sinned" do you believe that "all" absolutely means "all" without exception?"

2. Could you please show the verse in John chapter 6 where Jesus say's that He "alone" did not do the will of the flesh?"

Earlier, you posted that it is your belief that Jesus was the only human who was infallible. So....

3. Was not Paul infallible when he wrote his epistles?

4. Were the gospel writers not infallible when they wrote the gospels?

5. If they weren't, are you essentially saying there could be errors in the Bible...that the Bible is not infallible?

6. Do you believe the writers of Scripture were infallible or not?"

7.What, for a Christian, is the pillar and ground of the truth?

8. Is it the Bible?

There you go my friend. It is my hope you will answer each question directly. Which by the way, most could be answered with a yes or no.

If you decide against answering them, I can only surmise you have either no intention of answering them, or theologically you can't, which in either case would be disappointing.


Have a Blessed day!

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Hi thanks ,

(1) all with the exception of one .The Son of man Jesus the cheift apotle sent with words form the father . he alone the will of God without error. others have sinned and continue to fall short of God who is not a man .

(2) In John6:60-68 Jesus the Son of man spoke the words of the father as one sent from him .It was not of His own will. He said to the disciples what would happen if he would disappear the way he came .In other words why not walk by the faith as it is written .The words of my Father the King of kings and Lord of lords. it was ahard saying it greatly offened thier belive of walking by sight after the temporal things of this world. jesus siad to them its the unsen Holy Spirt can quickening the soul giving it new born again Spirit life . The flesh what the eys see profits for nothing Zero. Many of the disciples walked away in unbeleif (no faith in God not seen0 When asked of the 12 peter confirmed the words and said to whom else can we go You have been given the words of eternal life the power unto salvation . WE have that born again power working in us but would never assume it was of the powerless flesh

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life
(3) No the apotles are sent with the power of God's word it is not of them .We have the treasure of His power that works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure .But it certainly is not of these erathen bodies of death. Our living hope is a new bodt to accomappny our new born again spirts.

(4) Again no they were moved to do the will of our mighty Holy father. They did not sent thier ownselves .When they did self prophecy as a oral tradition of men .they failed and came under a curse.

5. If they weren't, are you essentially saying there could be errors in the Bible...that the Bible is not infallible?

6. Do you believe the writers of Scripture were infallible or not?"

7.What, for a Christian, is the pillar and ground of the truth?

8. Is it the Bible?

Hi thanks for the reply,

(1) All with the exception of one .The Son of man, Jesus the chief apostle was sent with words form the father. He alone performed the will of God without error. All others have sinned and continue to fall short of God not seen. God is not a man and neither the son of man. God is eternal Spirit without beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In him not of the son of man Jesus.

(2) In John6:60-68 Jesus the Son of man spoke the words of the father as one sent from him .It was not of His own will he was given the desire to do. .

He asked the disciples ,a mixture of those who believed God not seen and others that had no faith by which they could beleive.. .What would happen if he would disappear the way he came .In other words why not walk by the faith as it is written ?The words of my Father the King of kings and Lord of lords. It was hard saying it greatly offended their believe of walking by sight after the temporal things of this world. Jesus said to them it’s the unseen Holy Spirit that alone does quicken the soul giving it new born again spirit life .He clearly said. . . The flesh what the eyes see profits for nothing, zero. We are not to have faith in man flesh and blood rather than our Holy Father not seen .

Many of the disciples walked away in unbelief (no faith in God not seen. They venerated the flesh.

When asked of the 12 a remnant of all the apostles. The apostle Peter with words inspired from the Father working within Peter confirmed the word. He was given the faith to believe in his heart and confessed it with his mouth. Peter being empowered moved by the Holy Spirit within said; To whom else can we go You have been given the words of eternal life the power unto salvation .

We have that born again power working in us but would never assume it was of the powerless flesh .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The hard offensive saying below(John6) They refused to hear and believe a God not seen .God calls them fools no God in their hearts (no faith as it is written) zero not little.

John6:60-68 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, this is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that “believe not”. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life

Not the flesh of eternal life..

(3) No, the apostles are sent with the power of God's word. . . it is not of them .The word apostle means “sent one.” Not venerable one we venerate God not dying mankind.

We have the treasure of His power that works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure .But it certainly is not of these earthen bodies of death. (2 Corinthians 4:7)

Our living hope is a new body to accompany our new born again spirits.

(4) Again no, they were moved to do the will of our mighty Holy Father. They did not sent their own selves .When they did as an oral tradition of men they failed and came under a curse.

(5) I am saying God who is not served with human hands is able to preserve the integrity of His living abide word. He warns those who would add to it or subtract from all things written in the law through His prophets as sent ones apostles. (sola scriptura)

(6) I think they were inspired from above by the infallible interpreter of the Bible God Almighty and not their own private interpretations as commentaries of they thing the Bible is saying..

(7) Not the foundation of truth. The gospel alone is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against. it alone comes from the power of God that works in his apostles and prophets . Not of them. they continue to fall short of the unseen glory of God. Its why they need a savior.?


(8) Its the Spirit of Christ the same spirit of faith as it is written .It works mutually in all who have born been born from His Spirit above as sons of God born of the incorruptible seed. Not of the seed of corruptible fathers, Kings or princes or Queens

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

1 Peter 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Athanasius377 said:

Except that God created the flesh and it was good. Not just good but very good. Gen 1:31. Since the fall and sin entering the creation the flesh is utterly corrupt but will be restored in the bodily resurrection. 1 thess 4:14-18.


Um, no. It is not the faith of Christ its rather the Faith IN Christ that is the armor of God. Faith has an object. It is not some nebulous substance floating somewhere in the ether. This is the defense against the schemes of the devil. The Sword of the Spirt, the Word of God is the offensive weapon against the same.

Eph 6:10–18 (ESV)
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.




This lacks any coherence. If you were going for poetic points it didn't work. The doctrine we teach is straight from the Scripture. You know, the Rule of Faith that the apostles taught under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit later written down and recognized by the church catholic.



Wrong. Malak, or מַלְאָךְ corresponding word in the Greek is ἄγγελος of which we derrive the term "Angel". And it simply means "Messenger", not "sent one".

מַלְאָךְ, 1. (human) messenger;
—2. messengers of God
—3. heavenly messengers, angels: the angel of God (of Yahweh)
Lexical examples removed for sake of space.
Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (1994–2000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., pp. 585–586). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

Apostle,
ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
① of messengers without extraordinary status delegate, envoy, messenger (opp. ὁ πέμψας) J 13:16. Of Epaphroditus, messenger of the Philippians Phil 2:25.—2 Cor 8:23.
② of messengers with extraordinary status, esp. of God’s messenger, envoy (cp. Epict. 3, 22, 23 of Cynic wise men: ἄγγελος ἀπὸ τ. Διὸς ἀπέσταλται).
ⓐ of prophets Lk 11:49; Rv 18:20; cp. 2:2; Eph 3:5.

ⓑ of Christ (w. ἀρχιερεύς) Hb 3:1 (cp. ApcEsdr 2:1 p. 25, 29 T.; Just., A I, 12, 9; the extra-Christian firman Sb 7240, 4f οὐκ ἔστιν θεὸς εἰ μὴ ὁ θεὸς μόνος. Μααμετ ἀπόστολος θεοῦ). GWetter, ‘D. Sohn Gottes’ 1916, 26ff.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 122). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

There is a corresponding word, שָׁלִיחַ but it does not appear anywhere in the OT.



That's because Jesus is also God in human flesh. God the Father Decrees, God the Son accomplishes and God the Holy Spirit Applies. Salvation is a Trinitarian act.

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Yes it was good . Until mankind did the will of another .The god of this world put words in the mouth of a creature who had his legs' removed "You shall not surely die look at me and live. In other words. Why beleive in a God not seen? S s s s s.

God corrupted the whole creation when his glory departed..

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

In the bodily resurrection we will be given new bodies neither male nor female Jew nor gentile as a new creation the church, his chaste virgin bride. As sons of God we are not what we will be. (1 John)

God forbid. . . its clearly the faith of (coming from, inspired from above is not earthly of Jerusalem or Rome. ) God's work in respect to his labor of love alone. The fulness of grace not a unknown remnant.

What if some refuse to believe in God not seen .Will it make his work of faith that works in those without effect? To efect is to work. Born again believers reckon him not seen as the true one and only God and therefore every man seen a liar.

Romans3:3-4 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Its his armor we put on. His power to distinguish the arrows of the evil one.

The doctrine of him not seen teaches is straight from the Scripture.(sola scriptura) Not the oral tradition of the fathers according to their own written law of men (CCC) no man can serve two teaching good Master .

yes I stand corrected Shalach a Hebrew word is the Greek equivalent of apostle "sent one". We are forbidden from adding new meaning for a word . One word can subtract and change the authors intent (Deuteronomy 4:3) He works to protect the integrity of the whole ( sola scriptura) Revelation 22. do not add or subtract from the perfect sealed with 7 seals till the end of time.
The first listed member of the bride of Christ the church sent of God not seen who is also the first listed martyr is Abel .

His faithless brother plowed him under in the corn field to establish the foundation of paganism .Out of sight out of mind.

Abel walked by the faith of Christ that worked in him to both will and do the good pleasure of his unseen God .Just as us today .

In that way all things work to the good of those who show their love of God working in their new born again hearts according to His loving commandments (sola scriptura)

garee said:

(1) all with the exception of one .The Son of man Jesus the cheift apotle sent with words form the father . he alone the will of God without error. others have sinned and continue to fall short of God who is not a man .

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Jesus is both God and Man. God most certainly incarnated as Man. If Jesus was not God then why is he accepting worship?
Jn 20:26-29 (ESV)
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Mt 28:9. ESV
And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

garee said:

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

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Lets put that back into context:

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.

And why is this important?, Paul continues:
13 Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, “I believed, and so I spoke,” (Quoting Psalm 116:10) we also believe, and so we also speak, 14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

garee said:

The hard offensive saying below(John6) They refused to hear and believe a God not seen .God calls them fools no God in their hearts (no faith as it is written) zero not little.

John6:60-68 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, this is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that “believe not”. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life

Not the flesh of eternal life..

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Its pretty sketch starting a quote in the middle of an argument so lets put that back into context: I can see why you didn't include the referent in your quote:
Jn 6:52–69
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. 60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.

Yes, the flesh of eternal life.

garee said:

The gospel alone is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against.

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Wrong again. The text of scripture says it is the Church, not the Gospel Matt 16:18. First, you don't have a gospel at all because your Jesus can't save you. The Church being the foundation and bulwark of truth is the gathering of the saints where the Gospel is proclaimed and the Sacraments are duly administered. My guess is you have to twist the verse because you probably are not part of any body of believers.

garee said:

(8) Its the Spirit of Christ the same spirit of faith as it is written .It works mutually in all who have born been born from His Spirit above as sons of God born of the incorruptible seed. Not of the seed of corruptible fathers, Kings or princes or Queens

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

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Yes, through the Holy Spirit. God the Holy Spirt is not the Force from Star Wars, He is a Person and the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

CF
1 Co 12:4–11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

garee said:

1 Peter 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

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And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, 25 but the word of the Lord remains forever. (Quoting Isaiah 40:6-8)” And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

Notice how you are constantly having to cut around all the trinitarian passages? That should tell you something.

bbbbbbb said:

You really ascribe far more things to the Roman Catholic Church than they can be responsible for. I hope you understand that both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches claim that they are the only church which existed during the times your are referring to. It is just as (un)reasonable to level these charges against any of the Orthodox Churches.

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All I did was quote, if you take issue with it, than perhaps look at the source of the quotes.