What is worship anyway?

I (at the moment) paraphrase Old & New Testaments as follows:

The worship of God is to not stunt the growth of our fellow adopted widows and orphans in Father's firm.

Some people thought bad amplifying was the eighth sacrament. "Funny" how God abolished it only this week!

I know a lady who plays beautiful piano (in accompaniment). And some people that sit lower down, to one side, with their huge bank of modules, ruin and wreck it.

Then there are the artistes who fill the time between everything else with their obtrusive chords and megaphonic mutterings.

Just when I was on the point of e-mailing some acquaintances: "Amos 5:24 Stop Your Din"! One does think of doing such embarrassing things!

Aussie Pete said:

It's also vital that the songs are words of truth and are sung from the heart and not the head.

Click to expand...

I agree that however you decide to worship it has to come from the heart.

Aussie Pete said:

Most "worship" seems more geared to making people feel good.

Click to expand...

I agree that worship is for our Lord not for us. Some seem to have that backwards. Of course, it feels good to give praise to God, but those good feelings should not be our goal.

1. I met a precious little bunch of people who use acosutic instruments and there are six (solid and sensible) songs during a service. The singing is rousing and they gave me 6 e-mail addresses and 4 phone numbers in one week - as against 4 e-mail addresses and no phone numbers in 2 years from the previous, well-publicized, lot I knew.

2. I shall go "bananas" if I hear ONCE more "Ut - Most - Fear" (the Ectoplasm song) or "New Nay Nawning" (with the - in itself good - Scottish tune). I think a lot of the trends have been marketed by the camps and conferences of the Medes and the Persians, who hand down their laws on graven tablets.

Aussie Pete said:

"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers." John 4:23

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." Romans 12:1

Much is made of worship and rightly so. I take issue with what is called worship in the church. Most "worship" seems more geared to making people feel good. I was in a meeting where the band was delayed. People just sat around wondering what to do - and that included the pastor. The band finally showed up and the people were glad. Does Lord Jesus only show up when the band is there? No, He was there already.

One preacher put it like this. Praise and worship are gifts that we offer God. He receives the gift, beautifully wrapped and shows to the angels. "Look what my people are giving me!" But when God opens the box, He finds it empty.

We should be presenting ourselves to God. It is for those who are born again, who died and rose again with Christ. God seeks living sacrifices, not the dead religion or hyped up emotion of the old life.

We should come before God washed in the Blood and clothed in Christ our righteousness.

Singing is a wonderful way to praise the Lord. It is not the only way. It's also vital that the songs are words of truth and are sung from the heart and not the head. Worship just as a duty or religious practice is vain. So is the mini rock concert that precedes many meetings. Worship is a big part of the Christian life. Let's be sure that we are doing it right.

Click to expand...

Whatever you do, just make sure that you're not doing it in vain! (Matthew 15:9)

Aussie Pete said:

"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers." John 4:23

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." Romans 12:1

Click to expand...

The word "worship" in John 4:23 is actually "proskuneo" which is to adorn, fall down and kiss the feet of.
The word "worship" in Romans 12:1 is actually "latreia" which is service rendered to God.

You see, you are mixing up two completely different meanings here. Yes, worship should come from the heart, but in John it's a point of adoration - we are singing praises and thankgiving to Him for who He is, what He's done. In Romans it is directly talking about how you walk your walk, let it be representative of a way that Loves and Respects God why? Because Romans 12:2 states "Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world...".

I believe these two scriptures are talking about two different aspects of worship and SO MANY people mash them together. Proskuneo is what we do with music and song in our house of worship, and Latreia is what we do after we walk out of that house of worship.

I would also urge you to stop judging other peoples' hearts on worship. In the example you gave when the band was late, did you stand up and offer up a hymn or did you just sit and judge? Did you pray and intercede in case something had befallen the worship team or did you watch in amazement as everyone looked like lost puppies.

Start and change what you can - and sometimes its our own heart and our own perception that needs correcting.

-WW

To me there is no right or wrong 'style' of musical worship nor indeed non musical providing it is heart felt and sincere.
Sure people will mumble, grumble, fold their arms in an attempt to let all around them know of their disapproval and in the doing deny themselves and God of their own time of worship.....but...God loves the songs from the heart and hears them above and beyond all the 'wrapping paper' we encase them in.
As for me, well when I sing my worship it is declaration, affirmation and thanksgiving.
I declare his glory and greatness,
I affirm my love for him and
I give thanks for all he is and all he does, especially my salvation.
My other arguments surrounding excellence in worship etc. Do not impact on this 'core' element of my worship or indeed anyone else's.
Of course we also worship with our bodies, our lives and our thoughts, deeds and actions and sadly we all fall further from the tree in that area than any of us do in church or when singing musical worship.
He loves us anyway.

Aussie Pete said:

"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers." John 4:23

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." Romans 12:1

Much is made of worship and rightly so. I take issue with what is called worship in the church. Most "worship" seems more geared to making people feel good. I was in a meeting where the band was delayed. People just sat around wondering what to do - and that included the pastor. The band finally showed up and the people were glad. Does Lord Jesus only show up when the band is there? No, He was there already.

One preacher put it like this. Praise and worship are gifts that we offer God. He receives the gift, beautifully wrapped and shows to the angels. "Look what my people are giving me!" But when God opens the box, He finds it empty.

We should be presenting ourselves to God. It is for those who are born again, who died and rose again with Christ. God seeks living sacrifices, not the dead religion or hyped up emotion of the old life.

We should come before God washed in the Blood and clothed in Christ our righteousness.

Singing is a wonderful way to praise the Lord. It is not the only way. It's also vital that the songs are words of truth and are sung from the heart and not the head. Worship just as a duty or religious practice is vain. So is the mini rock concert that precedes many meetings. Worship is a big part of the Christian life. Let's be sure that we are doing it right.

Click to expand...

Quite true. I often have said (even here ---which was ignored) that worship is NOT about singing, musical bands, stage shows, etc. I have seen a sound ministry paper on TRUE worship, which I can send to anyone interested in God's view of Worship. -1watchman

I'm interested. I've always struggled with what true worship is.
Thanks
Ronit

1watchman said:

Quite true. I often have said (even here ---which was ignored) that worship is NOT just about singing, musical bands, stage shows, etc. I have seen a sound ministry paper on their idea of TRUE worship, which I can send to anyone interested in what they and I think is God's view of Worship. -1watchman

Click to expand...

There you go 1watchman I have fixed that for you....

True worship is when you are praising and worshipping God in your heart and with all your heart.
However that manifests is between you and him.
It is true, if it's sincere and if to you that's silently praising or singing (playing etc.) with exceptional skill, or with little to no skill then it is still true worship.
I always find it amusing that most people who condemn skillfull musical worship are those who lack the ability, gifting etc. To deliver it.
Making excellence a bad thing seems to make them feel better somehow.
I have often heard the declaration that 'it doesn't matter how good it is' proclaimed by someone who has demonstrated that in their case that is a good thing.
However, it doesn't actually matter to God, in that they are correct but neither is it any worse if it is a big, skillfull delivery of worship as long as it's from the heart God hears it and loves it all the same.
So if you're not very talented that's ok but please get off the backs of those who are and want to use it for God...ok?
Thanks and bless you.

Wow! It is something that one would say: 'It doesn't matter to God in that they are not correct ....as long as it is from the heart". Try reading all that God shows man about worship in the New Testament, and You might have pause to re-consider your over-simplification of pleasing God. Man's innovations is all about pleasing man and feeling good, but God should not be ignored when He has given us His mind in His Holy "Word of Truth". May God guide you on!

Tell you what, you follow your heart and let others do the same.
So you mean to tell me that if I sing (or whatever) from my heart, with all my heart then God does not accept it as true worship as it doesn't conform with certain passages of scripture?
Didn't the Pharisees have a similar viewpoint? At least until Jesus came and taught about a relationship with the Father, in fact until then no one really even thought of God as their heavenly 'Father'.
So these passages are a definitive and complete list of everything that qualifies as 'true' worship?
Whilst I appreciate that they give indications and examples of worship I doubt it.
God wants to engage with us in a relationship or hadn't you heard?
Also, if you read my post I added to your earlier post that worship is not just about singing etc. I fully accept that worship takes many forms but that some of them may threaten some supposedly scholarly believers who have opened their bibles but arguably yet to open their hearts fully?
If we love God with all our hearts, minds and strength then like any love we as people express it differently. Some may express love for a Mother by buying flowers, others by breakfast in bed, others by paying the bills but however it's done and if it's done with sincerity then it is a true expression of that love and the Mother knows and treasures it.
We all interpret God and his word differently and with respect who are you to say you interpretation is the only correct one?
I do not speak of the word of scripture, simply the diverse and often dividing issue of how we, as flawed people interpret it.
What you see in the word is, I'm sure true but that doesn't make other forms of worship untrue.
I genuinely mean no personal offence but these narrow minded, old school 'fire and brimstone' schools of though make me both angry and sad as they prevent people from fully engaging with God in a loving relationship.

I surely DO let you say what you wish, friend. Keep looking up, and keep the truth of God's Word FOREMOST in ALL that you ---and ALL souls practice, and all will go well. We get off track when we invent things that we want to believe about worship and relating to our Creator-God. 'Go in peace'!

And you also brother.
Perhaps one day we'll meet in his kingdom and know the truth of it but at that point I dare say we won't care

Some further thought on worship for true saints seems important for consideration, I believe; and this from some contrary thoughts heard in various places by professing Christians.

Let us NOT be looking to the Israelite religion to show examples of how to worship, or conduct a testimony for salvation and Church truth today. We need to be serving and worshipping as shown in the NEW TESTAMENT, and "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as told ---which is as Bible-only for the Church. The Old Testament gives us a study in history, creation, and God's plan for man, beside such as Isaiah and other faithful prophets and men of God as worship of our Creator, but NOT concerning the Church ---"bride" of Christ, which Jews today must also come to trust and honor to be saved.

While we value "all the counsel of God" today, we need to see that the Israelite religion has been closed; their Messiah has come (and they killed Him), and Israel as a nation will NOT be brought forth in God's "covenant" promises to them UNTIL they are restored as God's earthly people AFTER the Lord returns with His "bride" on earth as shown in such as Revelation 7: 1-10; and Revelation 14:1-3. There animal sacrifices all spoke of their Messiah who would come as the Savior of man, but they would not have Him. The Israelites today MUST come to God on the same ground as all Gentiles in this age. We do not take our order and instruction from the Israelite religion and must adhere to the Gospel and Church Truth as given for the Church.

Many OT saints are today in "paradise". Most of the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the hope for all mankind --not just in this world, but for eternity, which would come in Jesus, the Christ; and while God gave them ordinances, instructions, and types of Christ in animal sacrifices, etc. they failed to see it as typology ---and rejected their Messiah when He came. They enjoyed their religion, and some were faithful saints, but the hierarchy and followers corrupted the testimony and led them to crucify their Messiah. That ended their place, and opened the door for salvation to ALL mankind when the Lord Jesus AROSE, and is here for all who will now receive Him for eternal hope. Let us not keep looking back as an example, but only as a lesson in type.

Slothman said:

There you go 1watchman I have fixed that for you....

I always find it amusing that most people who condemn skillfull musical worship are those who lack the ability, gifting etc. To deliver it.
Making excellence a bad thing seems to make them feel better somehow.
I have often heard the declaration that 'it doesn't matter how good it is' proclaimed by someone who has demonstrated that in their case that is a good thing.

Click to expand...

Nice to see that I'm not the only one who's seen something like this.
We used to have arguments about spiritual vs quality (as in, sounds good) worship, like the two are polar opposites to each other... some people seem to think it's not worth putting the time and energy in to practice - but it really bugs me when we don't give it all that we have. And being in a band, it's frustrating that it doesn't really matter how good I play, the lead singer will be off pitch.
Also I believe that enjoyable music with its extatic quality can help lift the psyche up, and help the congragation members leave their everyday thoughts, or in more simple words, empty their hearts so they can get to that spiritual level. Afterall, it's not the band's job two praise God instead of the congregation, we just have to lead them doing it.

Being "off pitch" is NOT a sin! Our God loves to hear the VOICES of His saints in song as well as prayer. If it is drowned out by drums and instruments that is NOT what God has desired for the saints. One challenged me as to music bands, and I could reply that I WAS a drummer for years, before I became a Christian who worships in Spirit and in Truth. We don't need Singers as Israel did anymore, for in this new age we as "born again" saints are ALL singers to our God.

1watchman said:

Being "off pitch" is NOT a sin! Our God loves to hear the VOICES of His saints in song as well as prayer. If it is drowned out by drums and instruments that is NOT what God has desired for the saints.

Click to expand...

It isn't a sin, but as someone leading worship, but why'd working on your craft as a singer, making the most out of what talent you have not be desirable?

1watchman said:

One challenged me as to music bands, and I could reply that I WAS a drummer for years, before I became a Christian who worships in Spirit and in Truth. We don't need Singers as Israel did anymore, for in this new age we as "born again" saints are ALL singers to our God.

Click to expand...

You mentioned we shouldn't mention examples of Israelite worship, but we worship the same God the Old Testament is about. I don't think God suddenly decided to dislike drums when He sent Jesus for us.
I can understand somebody could find it a distraction but I think it's individual preference, worshipping in Spirit and Truth has nothing to do with any specific instrument.

Leveche5 said:

It isn't a sin, but as someone leading worship, but why'd working on your craft as a singer, making the most out of what talent you have not be desirable?

You mentioned we shouldn't mention examples of Israelite worship, but we worship the same God the Old Testament is about. I don't think God suddenly decided to dislike drums when He sent Jesus for us.
I can understand somebody could find it a distraction but I think it's individual preference, worshipping in Spirit and Truth has nothing to do with any specific instrument.

Click to expand...

I think you may be missing the point, friend! The OT religion was replaced by the NT we can clearly see. It was typology to bring us to Jesus the Christ (which Israel still rejects). their sacrifices were ALL a type of the real sacrifice of our Lord Jesus. I don't think we should be looking to Israelite religion for anything but lessons about our Creator-God, which we all value in such as the prophets Isaiah, etc. spoke of. Our relationship with God is NOT in type, but IN THE LORD JESUS (I hope you know). Our 'craft' as you say, friend, is good and no problem, but it is not for the Church and worship.

Look to the Epistles to learn about worship, and nothing is said about stage shows, bands, entertainment, etc. One needs to learn what worship is today as we collectively praise and worship God in person, as practiced by some of us in a Bible-only way for the New Testament Church. We don't use props in the Church or with supports, but by our own personal singing TOGETHER to God, exercising our personal priesthood (as 1 Peter 2 shows). God looks on the heart and not stage shows, I hope you appreciate, friend. Please study church truth more, friend!