The nonsense of "faith produces works"

GDL

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The thief on the cross was unable to do any works, his faith exclusively saved him. Salvation itself, according to John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 is a matter of believing in or having faith in Jesus and what He did to redeem us, plus NOTHING.

Agree re: thief on the cross unable...

Christ hadn't done the redeeming yet, so the thief couldn't believe in this, nor could he likely understand it. Even Jesus' disciples did not understand it yet.

What the thief did do is refer to the innocent Jesus as Lord & mention His Kingdom when he was surrounded by a conversation about Jesus being the Christ and was looking at a sign nailed above Jesus' head saying He was the King of the Jews.

So, this would tie in well, for example, with Paul's proclamation that the foundational point of the Gospel is that Jesus is the Christ & the Davidic King.

The "plus NOTHING" statement here is another discussion about what Biblical Faith is and includes, which I've addressed in part in posts #61 & #55.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon the face of the earth that doeth good and sinneth not.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works. We can do good works to earn rewards in heaven but none of that can ever be a payment for sin. Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.

If your faith has not produced works then you need to check your faith - instead of calling it nonsense.

Faith that doesn't work isn't faith. True faith moves His children to do the things the Father says is good, and abstain from things which displease Him...

If you feel like your working your way into God's heart, instead of being a good child who is much loved only doing what is pleasing in the eye of your Father, check the reasons your doing the work.
 
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BrotherJJ

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The NIV has a very interpretive translation here.

The original language is "obedience faith" and grammatically the most basic translation would be "obedience [of] faith." From here all translators become interpreters, including me.

Because faith & obedience are used interchangeably at times, including by Paul later in this same Romans document (NKJ Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" - "obeyed the gospel" & "believed our report" are parallel statements), I see warrant to make faith & obedience in Rom1:5 & 16:26 (so basically bookending Romans) virtually interchangeable - something like: obedience namely faith, or faith-obedience.

You can also see here what Christ is accomplishing through Paul: NKJ Romans 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient (more literally: for obedience of nations/gentiles).

I wouldn't hang my hat on obedience coming from faith or faith leads to obedience, because of the NIV translation. Also, consider this (I'll use the NIV, which is similar to other translations here):

NIV 1 John 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

- We have been commanded by God to believe in Jesus Christ
- SO, when we believe in Jesus Christ we are obeying God
- Faith-Obedience
- If Faith is not a work, then neither is Obedience
- God owes us nothing for Faith-Obedience
- When we do works that deserve compensation, it is the work that is compensated, not the obedience to do the work

The OP headline: Quote - The nonsense of "faith produces works".

I believe the scripture I posted from the KJV in post #59 & here form the NIV. Assert the opposite.

NIV - Rom 1:5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from[c] faith for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from[c] faith. It say's obedience that comes from faith).

NIV - Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from[f] faith
(NOTE: so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith. Again word for word - It say's obedience that comes from faith).

With Faith as the root, good works & obedience will be the fruit. Amen
 
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Hazelelponi

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I believe that you can just live however you want and still have faith.

The issue is that after having faith in Christ "however you want" living is how God wants...

In other words, your desires change. You feel shame in sin etc. You want to be more like Christ. You care more for others.
 
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Aussie Pete

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You reminded me of the guy in this Bible passage, haha. Acts 8:30-31: "And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him."

Here's one good sermon about faith and salvation:

Here you can find clear preaching about almost every subject: www.thepreaching.com
You missed the point of my comment.
 
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GDL

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With Faith as the root, good works & obedience will be the fruit. Amen

Sorry, but your post means what?

The NIV is interpretive as I pointed out from the Greek text. If you're choosing to live by the NIV to make quaint sayings like this, feel free, but they're not accurate re: faith-obedience. Look at & compare some other English translations to begin with. When you see disparity like this, start thinking there's some work to do. Here's a start:

ESV Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

KJV Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

NAS Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles, for His name's sake,

NET Romans 1:5 Through him we have received grace and our apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name.

NIV Romans 1:5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.

NKJ Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

YLT Romans 1:5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name;

Have fun...
 
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Kris Jordan

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Where did I say that we should not do works? I believe we should do works everyday. I'm just saying works are not necessary to earn our way to heaven.

Hi BibleBeliever1611,

I completely agree with you 100% that works are not required for salvation. I may have misunderstood what you were saying. My bad and my apologies. :)
 
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GDL

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Hi GDL,

I'm not sure what you are saying with your statement. Please clarify.

However obeying and serving God are always acts of our will and play a part in believer's lives, although not in our salvation.

Hi Kris:

You said in your quoted statement just above that our will does not play a part in our salvation. My response is a disagreement with this. Our will does play a part in our salvation, because our will plays a part in our faith. A couple examples in Scripture:

1) We are commanded to believe in the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ (1J3:23). God's command is something we choose to obey or not obey.

2) Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to receive the gift He gives that remains into eternal life (J6:27). Jesus' command was something the hearers chose to obey or not.

God is not seeking to remove our right to choose, but to have us choose for Him rather than against Him.

You might also note from these 2 examples that obedience is a part of our faith, whether or not we know this or believe this. And many do not believe this because they have been taught to strip everything out of the word "faith" in order to protect from a works-based salvation. We have a tendency to push the pendulum too far when we try to protect such things.

If you're interested, I addressed some of the works issues in post #55. I addressed the faith-obedience issue briefly in #61.

Thanks for asking me to clarify.
 
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GDL

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Where did I say that we should not do works? I believe we should do works everyday. I'm just saying works are not necessary to earn our way to heaven.

Hi BibleBeliever1611,

I completely agree with you 100% that works are not required for salvation. I may have misunderstood what you were saying. My bad and my apologies

I have a fairly technical question to ask you both. Although you both addressed the works-salvation issue in different words, what do you do with the following verses?

NKJ Phil. 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

FWIW:

- The word being translated "work out" is a word that emphasizes the accomplishment of something by work. After a lot of study on this, I see a better translation being: accomplish by work (vs. work to accomplish, which the non-emphasized version of the word states) - IOW the accomplishment of our salvation is the emphasis.

SO, is work, or are works, required in our salvation, or are they not?
 
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GDL

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But now, we are specifically commanded by God not to work for our salvation, as in Romans 4:5

Rom4:5 is not a command, but these are:

NKJ John 6:27 "Do not labor (work) for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures (remains) to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

NKJ Phil. 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (accomplish by work) your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
 
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Danthemailman

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The thief on the cross was unable to do any works, his faith exclusively saved him. Salvation itself, according to John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 is a matter of believing in or having faith in Jesus and what He did to redeem us, plus NOTHING.
It was his faith exclusively in Jesus that saved the thief (apart from any works that he may have accomplished later had he not died that day and was allowed to live).

In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43).

Of course, he died before having the opportunity to accomplish multiple acts of obedience/works, including water baptism, yet he was still saved through faith. He did however rebuke the other thief, acknowledged his guilt and defended the Lord, giving evidence of his faith:

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 - and Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
 
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Guojing

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Rom4:5 is not a command, but these are:

NKJ John 6:27 "Do not labor (work) for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures (remains) to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

NKJ Phil. 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (accomplish by work) your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

John 6 27 was an instruction to Israel by Jesus after he fed the 5000 men
 
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GDL

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John 6 27 was an instruction to Israel by Jesus after he fed the 5000 men

So, IOW, some kind of dispensational interpretation, thus not applicable to us & it's not necessary for us put any effort into hearing & learning from God about His Son?

Phil2?
 
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HIM

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I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works. We can do good works to earn rewards in heaven but none of that can ever be a payment for sin. Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.
What is true Faith?
 
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Guojing

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So, IOW, some kind of dispensational interpretation, thus not applicable to us & it's not necessary for us put any effort into hearing & learning from God about His Son?

Israel was promised physical blessings NOW, but they are not to be just contented with those physical blessings.

What Jesus did for them, in terms of the feeding of the 5000, was to point to them that he was the prophet Moses was talking about (Deut 18:15 and Acts 3:22)

Some of the Jews acknowledged that after that sign, stated in John 6:14 NKJV

"Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, 'This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.

The link between Jesus and Moses, thru that sign by those Jews had a straightforward reason: Their ancestors were fed through Moses calling down Mana from heaven, and now Jesus himself fed the 5000 men with the multiplication of bread and fish.

Which corresponds to what Deut 18:15 stated

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

But Jesus was very clear to point to all of Israel the need to acknowledge him as the Son of God with the next passage in John 6

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So physical blessings were promised to Israel but they were not to be an end in themselves, Israel need to believe in Jesus as their Messiah for them to get the spiritual blessings, which is everlasting life.
 
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