The nonsense of "faith produces works"

BrotherJJ said:

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: Gentiles are called to FAITH, which leads to obedience & repentance)

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The NIV has a very interpretive translation here.

The original language is "obedience faith" and grammatically the most basic translation would be "obedience [of] faith." From here all translators become interpreters, including me.

Because faith & obedience are used interchangeably at times, including by Paul later in this same Romans document (NKJ Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" - "obeyed the gospel" & "believed our report" are parallel statements), I see warrant to make faith & obedience in Rom1:5 & 16:26 (so basically bookending Romans) virtually interchangeable - something like: obedience namely faith, or faith-obedience.

You can also see here what Christ is accomplishing through Paul: NKJ Romans 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient (more literally: for obedience of nations/gentiles).

I wouldn't hang my hat on obedience coming from faith or faith leads to obedience, because of the NIV translation. Also, consider this (I'll use the NIV, which is similar to other translations here):

NIV 1 John 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

- We have been commanded by God to believe in Jesus Christ
- SO, when we believe in Jesus Christ we are obeying God
- Faith-Obedience
- If Faith is not a work, then neither is Obedience
- God owes us nothing for Faith-Obedience
- When we do works that deserve compensation, it is the work that is compensated, not the obedience to do the work

timothyu said:

Yes but they believe that doing that is better than following the usual ways of man. They have committed to it being a good idea without knowing who came up with the idea yes, but they have faith in it. In doing so they are doing His will as the good idea (not doing the idea) is God in action.

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OR,... it could be the one's professing to be wise, yet, fools or wolves in sheep's clothing. Prison inmates can be marvelous cons, unbelievably convincing in ACTING the reformed, penitent Christian because they know it will benefit them very well at the parole board. People in a Judeo-Christian society know that adhering to such standards and morals or at least appearing to, will get them advancements and promotions; money. They absolutely no interest or intent in advancing or promoting Godliness, but rather just themselves. There are those who profess to be Christians and even cast demons, prophesy, and do many good works in the name of Christ, but when they see Jesus they are going to hear, I knew you NOT, begone.

"“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" Matt 7:21-23 ESV

BibleBeliever1611 said:

I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon the face of the earth that doeth good and sinneth not.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works. We can do good works to earn rewards in heaven but none of that can ever be a payment for sin. Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.

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Hi BibleBeliever1611,

You are mixing various things together and, in essence, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

When a person is born-again, they will desire to do good works because of their newly regenerated spirit, which was once dead and now alive. They desire to do the things of God because of God's Spirit living within them.

With that being said, nobody obeys God perfectly, saved or unsaved. Likewise, works do not save us. However obeying and serving God are always acts of our will and play a part in believer's lives, although not in our salvation.

When you said, "So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things." Yes, we are saved by grace through faith and works do not save us. But to say that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works is incorrect.

If you read the verses directly following Ephesians 2:8-9, it says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Hope that helps clarify things for you a bit more.

Kris Jordan said:

However obeying and serving God are always acts of our will and play a part in believer's lives, although not in our salvation

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Human will is involved in Faith & thus is part of our Salvation Process.

Kenny'sID said:

Am I to take it that you are saying we need only say we have faith to be saved, and we don't have to do good as in works and being good?

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The thief on the cross was unable to do any works, his faith exclusively saved him. Salvation itself, according to John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 is a matter of believing in or having faith in Jesus and what He did to redeem us, plus NOTHING.

Monksailor said:

There are those who profess to be Christians and even cast demons, prophesy, and do many good works in the name of Christ, but when they see Jesus they are going to hear, I knew you NOT, begone.

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Of course, their motive was self interest. God is about others. Another reason why we should not judge be it in favour or against because as you say it could be a con, yet God the ultimate judge knows the motive, what is in the heart. It is supposed to serve His purpose, not ours.

Monksailor said:

The thief on the cross was unable to do any works, his faith exclusively saved him

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The thief did the will of God. He put another before himself unlike the other thief who was all about self interest. In doing the will of the Father rather than follow the traditional self serving will of man, he was saved. Flipping the switch is simple. The fun starts when we start trying to live our lives accordingly. Perseverance will have it's rewards, abandoning faith in the will of God being the better of the two choices, and you get an F on the report card.

GDL said:

Human will is involved in Faith & thus is part of our Salvation Process.

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For those who believe in Biblical predestination and understand Greek syntax it is obvious that human will is NOT involved in the salvation described in Ephesians 2:8-10.
This faith IS a gift of God.

Matthew Olliffe concludes, "Learning these things from both the Eastern and Western exegetical traditions concerning Ephesians 2:8-10 enables us to be ‘more Calvinistic than Calvin’, who thought it an error to say that ‘faith’ was the gift here. But it is quite acceptable according to the rules of Greek syntax. Our modern grammars and commentaries should be revised to reflect that reality." pasted from: Is ‘Faith’ the ‘Gift of God’? Reading Ephesians 2:8-10 with the Ancients - The Gospel Coalition | Australia

Monksailor said:

The thief on the cross was unable to do any works, his faith exclusively saved him. Salvation itself, according to John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-10 is a matter of believing in or having faith in Jesus and what He did to redeem us, plus NOTHING.

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How could Christ possibly expect the theif to do any works?

The theif had no chance to do any works and Christ, the fair individual he was, recognized that fact, and that is all their was to it. Had the he lived beyond that, he'd a been expected to do good, be good, take care of the poor and such just like anyone has to. So no, though faith only tries to use that as an excuse, it is far from that.

"Plus nothing", you say? That isn't what Jesus said. Read the following and answer this simple question, do we have to do what is good in order to get to heaven, or can we depend on faith only for that?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Kenny'sID said:

The theif had no chance to do any works

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But he did. He put the welfare of Jesus ahead of his own. He followed Jesus' two commandments.

timothyu said:

But he did. He put the welfare of Jesus ahead of his own. He followed Jesus' two commandments.

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I'm talking living a life including works, but yes, he did put Christ first while he had the chance.

Kenny'sID said:

I'm talking living a life including works, but yes, he did put Christ first while he had the chance.

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That is a work. Works are simply putting the will of God ahead of the will of man (hence the two thieves showing two differing wills). He put another before self, an innocent ahead of guilty parties.

timothyu said:

That is a work. Works are simply putting the will of God ahead of the will of man (hence the two thieves showing two differing wills). He put another before self, an innocent ahead of guilty parties.

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I think I agreed with you.

"How could Christ possibly expect the theif to do any works?

The theif had no chance to do any works and Christ, the fair individual he was, recognized that fact, and that is all their was to it. Had the he lived beyond that, he'd a been expected to do good, be good, take care of the poor and such just like anyone has to. So no, though faith only tries to use that as an excuse, it is far from that."

Christ allowed a man to be saved exclusively by his faith. If works were required Christ would have created a situation for the thief to do so. Christ was God and esp since this incident was for the whole world to see He would not want us to get the wrong message.

""Plus nothing", you say?"

Yes, the thief went to heaven solely based upon his faith PLUS NOTHING.

Monksailor said:

"How could Christ possibly expect the theif to do any works?

The theif had no chance to do any works and Christ, the fair individual he was, recognized that fact, and that is all their was to it. Had the he lived beyond that, he'd a been expected to do good, be good, take care of the poor and such just like anyone has to. So no, though faith only tries to use that as an excuse, it is far from that."

Christ allowed a man to be saved exclusively by his faith. If works were required Christ would have created a situation for the thief to do so. Christ was God and esp since this incident was for the whole world to see He would not want us to get the wrong message.

""Plus nothing", you say?"

Yes, the thief went to heaven solely based upon his faith PLUS NOTHING.

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You didnt answer the question. Why?

And you just made up the part about Jesus providing a way. If that were the case all death bed confessions would be healed by Christ to live and do their works, which is as ridiculous as your claim.

However, I do get it, it takes ridiculous claims to make "faith only" work.

Monksailor said:

For those who believe in Biblical predestination and understand Greek syntax it is obvious that human will is NOT involved in the salvation described in Ephesians 2:8-10.
This faith IS a gift of God.

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Predestination is argued theologically among various camps & is interpretive, as is Eph2:8.

I do understand Greek grammar & syntax & you cannot bank conclusively on Eph2:8 to say that Faith is the gift. There's a very strong argument that says the gift is the entirety of "by grace you are saved through faith," because the forms of the words, "this" and "faith" do not match ("faith" is feminine & "this" is neuter). So, salvation by grace through faith = the gift from God.

NET Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith (feminine noun), and this (neuter pronoun) is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

BibleBeliever1611 said:

The people who believe that you can just live however you want and still go to heaven are usually the same people who live the cleanest lives, and do the most work. It's pretty ironic.

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Why should we accept this as a fact?

Monksailor said:

Matthew Olliffe concludes, "Learning these things from both the Eastern and Western exegetical traditions concerning Ephesians 2:8-10 enables us to be ‘more Calvinistic than Calvin’, who thought it an error to say that ‘faith’ was the gift here. But it is quite acceptable according to the rules of Greek syntax. Our modern grammars and commentaries should be revised to reflect that reality." pasted from: Is ‘Faith’ the ‘Gift of God’? Reading Ephesians 2:8-10 with the Ancients - The Gospel Coalition | Australia

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"quite acceptable" is not stating it's conclusive. I agree we should be made aware of such matters - those of us who care about accuracy anyway. Then it might be easier to point out the open argument to those who state conclusively one way or the other. "Those" are typically those who are taught from the pulpits under a certain theological system & then think they're prepared to debate because their pastor says..........