want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

Danigt22

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Are you 100% sure, before the Lord, that your accusation is according to truth? I never judged my brethren, and your accusation is false. I have accused no one, neither have I denied that my own good works are filthy rags. The spirit behind your interaction with me is not from God.
Im 100% sure, why did you get offended when I mention about how you feel about the finish work of the cross. If you call the gospel of your salvation not from God. You should seek within your heart for grace and mercy. And stop preaching another gospel.

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The gospel is offensive to our flesh. In our pride we seek works, and forget in what price we were bought. It doesnt matter what you do, or what you are. No one is worthy of grace and everyone deserves hellfire. This is why the finish work of the cross should be our focus, in him we have victory. There is nothing that can take that away from us. It is offensive you seek doing good works for staying "save" when you already are "seal". Do it, out of love and gratitude to our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Blade

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:) a rabbit that made .. or found a rabbit hole. Just playing.. yet a rabbit hole for sure.

Maybe someone should make a new thread showing "how you can lose your salvation". If once saved always saved is so hard for some to see or not there at all. Then the flip side should be very clear no?

You know what gets me? You didn't ask but.. I share anyway lol. Is the name calling and some really make this personal when its not them. Not their word not their promise on and on. When some refer to other groups they give them a name in which that group does not use.. does not even believe in what that name stands for. So the name calling is not word of life or hope or help but to paint them so to speak in a negative light. As if what the person posting is the REAL truth. <--I could have said that on one sentence but trying I pray to be nice lol

You need to understand.. you being all of us that we don't all SEE understand the same exact way. Some read a verse and see something totally different. Yet I believe that is not how it works. I still am not sure why this matters to much to some. Well I still have never met OSAS person that believes WOOT I can sin all I want. I have found them to be more searching in how to please the Father.. watching how they live every moment. Still say sorry to God when they miss it. Just no fear God will cast you out the moment you sin or stuck in sin or forget to repent. Still a fallen world.. still live in the flesh so.. carry on.
 
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Try reading the rest of what I wrote.

You aren’t saved by being good.

AFTER salvation are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and being in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1, above, but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t need to ever repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

(Paul also warned us about claiming grace is a license to sin.)

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.







Both Jesus and Paul use Adam and Eve and also quote the Genesis clause regarding marriage, that two become one and cleave together - thus marriage has not changed between the OT and NT.

Earthly marriage has always been symbolic of marriage between God and His bride.

Israel is called Gods elect bride and in the new covenant believers are the bride of Jesus.

My analogy is spot-on, and your retort is absolutely erroneous, it has everything to do with the topic of OSAS.

Chad I like your posts. You speak things spot on, brother. Three questions if you don't mind me asking. I like to always ask when I find a new believer like myself in regards to sharing a similar Soteriology.

#1. I believe in the Trinity. I assume you believe in the Trinity in that the Lord our God is one God, and He exists as three persons, too. Is this correct?
#2. I believe in Sola Scriptura. Do you believe the Bible and the Bible alone is our sole authority (i.e. Sola Scriptura)?
#3. I believe we are under a New Covenant, with New commands. Do you believe we are under a New Covenant (or New Testament) and we are to primarily follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers instead of the 613 laws of Moses?
Granted, certain laws within the Laws of Moses have been repeated in the New Testament, like do not murder, do not steal, etc.; But I do not believe we have to keep the ceremonial laws like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, holy days, and the dietary laws, etc. Do you agree that we do not have to keep the Old Testament ceremonial laws like the ones I just mentioned?
 
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You asked questions, and we answered with Scripture.
If you disagree, then at least give us the courtesy as to why you believe we are wrong in our interpretation of God's Word instead of waving goodbye.
Please take no offense, but from my perspective, it did not really seem like you were searching for any real answers by the questions you asked in seeking out the truth for real. You are simply seeing what you want to see. Hence, why you are waving goodbye and appearing to leave at this point in the thread. I sure hope you don't leave, and you keep asking, and keep searching the Scriptures, friend. Do not close yourself off to the truth and only listen to a message you prefer to hear because it is more comforting.
 
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:) a rabbit that made .. or found a rabbit hole. Just playing.. yet a rabbit hole for sure.

Maybe someone should make a new thread showing "how you can lose your salvation". If once saved always saved is so hard for some to see or not there at all. Then the flip side should be very clear no?

You know what gets me? You didn't ask but.. I share anyway lol. Is the name calling and some really make this personal when its not them. Not their word not their promise on and on. When some refer to other groups they give them a name in which that group does not use.. does not even believe in what that name stands for. So the name calling is not word of life or hope or help but to paint them so to speak in a negative light. As if what the person posting is the REAL truth. <--I could have said that on one sentence but trying I pray to be nice lol

You need to understand.. you being all of us that we don't all SEE understand the same exact way. Some read a verse and see something totally different. Yet I believe that is not how it works. I still am not sure why this matters to much to some. Well I still have never met OSAS person that believes WOOT I can sin all I want. I have found them to be more searching in how to please the Father.. watching how they live every moment. Still say sorry to God when they miss it. Just no fear God will cast you out the moment you sin or stuck in sin or forget to repent. Still a fallen world.. still live in the flesh so.. carry on.

I have met people both online and in person who believed they can sin all they want with the thinking you are saved. But here is the rub. Many others sort of believe that way, too. The only difference is that they are better at hiding it and putting on a show of holiness when they are not really for holy living. Proof? Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? Yes, or no? Do you believe a believer can commit suicide and still be saved?

As for inference that it is wrong give labels to certain believers so as to help us to identify what they believe:

Well, in my opinion, giving a label for a group that they do not share is not wrong (as long as that label is not untrue to what they believe). For if that label is something that describes what they actually believe in order to help us identify them, then truth is only being exposed. Hiding the truth is not saying anything about their beliefs. A label should be kind and loving, but it should also be truthful to what they believe. So no. I am not buying it is bad to label a person by what they believe if that belief is actually a reflection of what they truly believe. For example: Do you know of a believer who thinks they can sin and still be saved? If so, then they can be called a “Sin and Still Be Saved Proponent” because that is merely an identifying mark of their belief. I mean, do you think the Pharisees wanted to be called snakes, hypocrites, and white washed tombs by Jesus? Surely not. But that is what they were (metaphorically speaking). I have not even come close to any name calling like what our Lord has done (and surely He was not wrong for doing so). But hopefully you get the point in where I am coming from.

Peace and blessings be unto you in the Lord.
 
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RickReads

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Chad I like your posts. You speak things spot on, brother. Three questions if you don't mind me asking. I like to always ask when I find a new believer like myself in regards to sharing a similar Soteriology.

#1. I believe in the Trinity. I assume you believe in the Trinity in that the Lord our God is one God, and He exists as three persons, too. Is this correct?
#2. I believe in Sola Scriptura. Do you believe the Bible and the Bible alone is our sole authority (i.e. Sola Scriptura)?
#3. I believe we are under a New Covenant, with New commands. Do you believe we are under a New Covenant (or New Testament) and we are to primarily follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers instead of the 613 laws of Moses?
Granted, certain laws within the Laws of Moses have been repeated in the New Testament, like do not murder, do not steal, etc.; But I do not believe we have to keep the ceremonial laws like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, holy days, and the dietary laws, etc. Do you agree that we do not have to keep the Old Testament ceremonial laws like the ones I just mentioned?

I divide the Law into four catogories. These are governmental (i.e. rock throwing), public health (i.e. taste,touch,handel not), the priesthood, and finally the moral law which Paul called the righteousness of the law.

Jesus clarified some things but He didn`t rewrite the Law, but we are only obligated to keep the righteousness of/moral Law. Laws that pertained to Israel as a physical country(including health laws) and laws that pertained to the levite priesthood were suspended.
 
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Albion

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I have met people both online and in person who believed they can sin all they want with the thinking you are saved. But here is the rub. Many others sort of believe that way, too.
And they are all misinformed. What's the argument?

The only difference is that they are better at hiding it and putting on a show of holiness when they are not really for holy living.
Okay. That's probably correct to say.

It doesn't say anything about OSAS, however.
 
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Albion

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There is nothing to disprove. Sacred Scripture does not teach OSAS in the first place.
Sure it does, but that isn't the point.

The tiresome process of criticizing individual people who don't understand OSAS and instead assume, wrongly, that if they claim to have faith they then have a license to sin...is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of OSAS!
 
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I divide the Law into four catogories. These are governmental (i.e. rock throwing), public health (taste,touch,handel not), the priesthood, and finally the moral law which Paul called the righteousness of the law.

Jesus clarified some things but He didn`t rewrite the Law, but we are only obligated to keep the righteousness of/moral Law. Laws that pertained to Israel as a physical country(including health laws) and laws that pertained to the levite priesthood were suspended.

I agree with your two statements that say:

#1. We are only obligated to keep the righteousness of/moral Law.
#2. Laws that pertained to Israel as a physical country(including health laws) and laws that pertained to the levite priesthood were suspended.

But I disagree that Jesus was not changing the Law, my brother.

I believe Jesus was making changes to the Old Law in preparation to the change of the New Covenant that went officially into effect with His death:

Biblical proof?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
 
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Albion

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Predestination is the correct form of OSAS, mind you I`m not suggesting that we should be Calvins.
Could not the believer, once saved, be thought to be safe from damnation, predestination aside?
 
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Swag365

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2. We can disqualify ourselves by our works.
Even the OSAS folks themselves know it. Every sane person on the Earth knows that a person who murders, rapes, commits adultery, does other heinous crimes, disqualifies himself.

That is why they always answer "Oh, but me, I could never do such things myself because I am one of the Lord's sheep" when you ask them if a person who does those things is disqualified.

And then when one of their Christian brothers does it, one of the same brothers who professed 5 minutes ago that he also could never do such things because he is a sheep, they turn around and say "Oh he was never really saved in the first place."

The evasiveness and rationalization needed to maintain this theology would be comical, if so many people were not deceived by it.
 
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Albion

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Even the OSAS folks themselves know it. Every sane person on the Earth knows that a person who murders, rapes, commits adultery, does other heinous crimes, disqualifies himself.
That still doesn't have anything to do with OSAS.
 
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Sure it does, but that isn't the point.

The tiresome process of criticizing individual people who don't understand OSAS and instead assume, wrongly, that if they claim to have faith they then have a license to sin...is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of OSAS!

I do recognize Mid Range OSAS Proponents. They say that if a believer is not confessing and or forsaking sin, they were never born again to begin with. So the moment a believer is justifying sin, they are a fake. This does not sound like what king David went through, and or others like the prodigal son, though. It's also not consistent with scores of Scripture, as well. Anyways, these types of believers admit to the fact that if they did not get a chance to confess of their sins before the Rapture or before they died, they would still be saved as long as they generally lived a holy life and did not justify sin. The problem in this kind of thinking is that it opens the door to sin for other believers. For if one teaches that they can die in their sins and still be saved just one time, then they can do even more sins, and or think they can sin one time with the thinking they are saved. For once a believer justifies sin a little, it can potentially lead to the opening of the floodgates of other sins in their life.
 
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Albion

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I do recognize OSAS Lite Proponents. But they are extremely rare. They say that if a believer is not confessing and or forsaking sin, they were never born again to begin with. So the moment a believer is justifying sin, they are a fake.
It's undeniable, in fact. Faith causes something to happen. That's part of its nature. If nothing does, the so-called Faith has to be phony. I don't see why people argue so earnestly against this very obvious truth.
 
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Danigt22

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Even the OSAS folks themselves know it. Every sane person on the Earth knows that a person who murders, rapes, commits adultery, does other heinous crimes, disqualifies himself.

That is why they always answer "Oh, but me, I could never do such things myself because I am one of the Lord's sheep" when you ask them if a person who does those things is disqualified.

And then when one of their Christian brothers does it, one of the same brothers who professed 5 minutes ago that he also could never do such things because he is a sheep, they turn around and say "Oh he was never really saved in the first place."

The evasiveness and rationalization needed to maintain this theology would be comical, if so many people were not deceived by it.

They are my brethren, no matter how hard they fail. If they believe within their hearts the gospel of our salvation. For im a murderer within my heart, I have lust to women im not marry, I was degenerate and an abomination to the lord. No matter how much I repent, Im those things. I dont fool myself with my own filthy righteousness. Im under his grace and mercy, and Im wash in him.
 
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Swag365

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They are my brethren, no matter how hard they fail. If they believe within their hearts the gospel of our salvation. For im a murderer within my heart, I have lust to women im not marry, I was degenerate and an abomination to the lord. No matter how much I repent, Im those things. I dont fool myself with my own filthy righteousness. Im under his grace and mercy, and Im wash in him.
Yeah well if you are still going around murdering people and committing adultery, you might want to put an end to that.
 
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