Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

InterestedAtheist · Oct 22, 2020

bling said:
Address the questions please:

The questions you asked cvanwey and he answered? Even so, I was going to, but I see that @cvanwey has already done so, a second time. Since he said just what I would have wished to say, I'll leave it.

bling said:
The “qualifier” is God will never do, that which is not best for the individual and the Kingdom.

This qualifier makes no difference whatsoever. It still leaves us in the position that God is alleged to answer prayers, but never does so in "impossible" cases. It can't be the case that the reason God never answers impossible prayers is that it is "best for the individual and the Kingdom" because he was once, apparently, happy to do just that.

bling said:
The only “stories” I know to be true are those in scripture before the destruction of Jerusalem. People back even before Christ came to earth, saw lots of “undeniable” to them miracles with just; the sun rising, stars, the moon, rain, earth quacks and mountains.
They needed faith, to believe these miracles were not just caused by some Spiritual being, but the Christian God.

It may be that you do not believe any of the innumerable reports of miracles being worked in the last two thousand years, but that makes you a rather unusual Christian. Regardless, you have conceded the point that God did once work miracles in answer to prayers.

bling said:
You need at this time to be able to believe: “they just happened by chance”, so God is doing His job perfectly.

Of course I don't. I have no need at all to believe that miraculous cures happen by chance. Show me an undeniable miracle, and I will believe in God.

bling said:
You say: “…there should be no difference between a Christian asking for a child's sickness to be cured (something you see often) and asking for a dead child to be returned to life (something you almost never see).”

Yes. To God, there is no difference. To the asking Christian, there is no difference in kind, only in degree - asking God for a slightly bigger wish than the kind of wish millions of Christians ask Him for all the time.

bling said:
If you address my questions above you can reason the huge difference. It has nothing to do with God’s power and everything to do with your benefit.

I cannot see that your answers address this in any way. You've said that God once did work miracles, but now does not. You have no proof of anything you maintain about it being bad for us, in some way, to see an undeniable miracle. It obviously wasn't bad for people in times past. This is just ad hoc rationalisations.

bling · Oct 23, 2020

Thank you for addressing my questions.

cvanwey said:
Curing cancer, time and time again, (which may or may not prove God's hand in a cure), is best for the Kingdom, but NEVER addressing missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and/or Downs is best for the Kingdom? HOW?

And more importantly still, why do [you] think this is what God thinks?

No. I think you are reading them, I just do not think you are addressing what I am actually saying.

I do not believe all cancer is cured by God, even when Christians ask for it to be cured and add “not my will but Your will be done”.

Just think what it would be for nonbelievers, if God obviously miraculously cured any and all sicknesses?

cvanwey said:
Your entire line of questioning is irrelevant. Let me prove this. My responses are in red:

Let’s try another approach to the question:

Suppose God communicated to all devout Christians who spread the word: that the Christian God of the Bible was going to cure all: Down Syndrome, cerebral palsy and instantly grow back any missing limbs of people at 2PM on Friday. And it all happened just as He promised:

1. Would this result in there being over 6 billion Christians on earth, assuming 6 billion people acknowledge the existence of the Christian God? (realizing some people are too young and other just want to remain stupid). No. Not necessarily. As I stated long again, satan and a third of the angels rebelled. But this does not remove the fact that God would still answer the call to prayers of the ones whom ask, whom are believers, in earnest. But where condition and illnesses exist, for which we humans do not have an answer, neither does God. This question misses the point... God is NOT answering the call of prayer from the earnest either. You know, the ones which are not praying to prove to non-believers. If a request is made to resolve an issue for which we humans cannot already resolve ourselves, neither does He apparently. It's a simple observation....

2. “Christian” is a descriptive term and not a title, so would God consider this 6 Billion+ people Christian, just because they acknowledged His existence? No. Likely not. But this is not relevant. MY observation is that the ones He DOES consider a true-blue Christian, are not getting their prayers answered any better than the ones whom do not pray at all.

3. If these 6 billion+ people started: reading their bible, going to church every week, and were baptized, would that make them all Christians in God’s eyes? No. Likely not. But for the ones God does consider true-blue, God is not answering the call to their prayers either. Otherwise, you would once in a while see a prayer answered, for which humans cannot resolve themselves.

Are you starting to see why I did not address all 7 yet???? NO? Okay Moving forward...

cvanwey said:
4. We know; God judges the hearts of people (their attitude and motive) and not their “knowledge” or even their actions, to determine followers and their hearts determine their being saved Christians. Knowing the Christian God of the Bible is real, also means judgement is real, hell is real, and we are to Love God and others with an unbelievable beyond human ability Love. How can these people, who just acknowledged God’s existence, “trust” their motives to be pure? True-blue Christians, whom think the Christian God is real, make excuses, just like you are doing now. They genuinely think God answers prayer, and when a prayer is not answered, they feel they have a great excuse as to why. But the question still remains the same... If god answers the call to all earnest prayers, from devout believers, seems quite odd He always avoids an answer, if the humans cannot somehow resolve the matter themselves in some form or another. Coincidence?

Questions 1,2 and 3, you answered “no” which is fine, but the tangent after the answer does not relate to why it is "no".

Question 4 is where I get to the heart of the matter which you are not address at all, but just restate what you have been saying totally not addressing the question.

cvanwey said:
5. Knowledge of God, hell and judgement is frighting in many ways, so would most of these 6 billion+ people do stuff out of fear of Judgement, hell and realizing God knows their hearts? Many do. This is why I mentioned the term prior, 'I'm a God fearing Christian.' And others rationalize away the concept of a 'torturous hell'. Others still say there is no hell. We get all sorts of rationalizations from the true-blue believers.

Here we do start addressing the issue: Good solid knowledge of the Christian God’s existence, which also produces knowledge of Judgement, hell and heaven, would generate fear in many, most, all of the former nonbelievers. The Christian’s “fear” of God is really a respect for God, while the sinners frightening fear of God has to do with God’s judgement of him/her.

You somewhat avoid answering by going into a tangent about “Many people confessing to be “Christians” do stuff out of the fear of judgement, which does not make them “true-blue believers”.

From 1 Cor. 13:1-4, we know anything a Christian does no matter how great, without being motivated by Godly type Love is worthless, of not value, and hurting the cause. Christians are compelled by Love and Love drives frightening fear away.

Avoiding this generating of frightening fear in some people is plenty enough reason for God to not perform any outwardly scientifically verifiable healings.

cvanwey said:
6. Is worship out of fear, a righteous motivation? And if it is not, how do you go from just knowledge of God’s existence to a loving “trust” (have faith) in God’s Love, without starting with trust and acceptance of God’s Love? Good question, one for which I already addressed. Why don't you ask the authors of the Bible whom write such Verses?

"15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

It all starts with believing (faith) or not believing and not with unquestionable knowledge.

The person who does not believe (faith/trust), also would not believe they are condemned, so there is no frightening fear there. And, the person who believes is not condemned, so there is no fear there either.

The believer is showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts including: eternal life, the indwelling Holy Spirit, Love, purpose and a new wonderful family, so their actions would be out of a gratitude type of Love.

cvanwey said:
7. Knowing your own life history and if you saw this miracle, why would you not fear this God? If the God of the Bible does exist, I would likely fear Him, due to the threats issued. But He seems to require belief.

Very good! Having to believe first allows you and everyone else to avoid frightening fear. Knowledge without first believing creates frightening fear and no real path to believing.

cvanwey said:
You are making an excuse, because you know what the OP says is true. (Paraphrased) - Christians do not pray for things for which they know humans cannot somehow accomplish on their own.

Above, I explained the reason, you need to first believe.[/QUOTE]

bling · Oct 23, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
The questions you asked cvanwey and he answered? Even so, I was going to, but I see that @cvanwey has already done so, a second time. Since he said just what I would have wished to say, I'll leave it.

I would still like to hear your answers to 4,5,6,7.

InterestedAtheist said:
This qualifier makes no difference whatsoever. It still leaves us in the position that God is alleged to answer prayers, but never does so in "impossible" cases. It can't be the case that the reason God never answers impossible prayers is that it is "best for the individual and the Kingdom" because he was once, apparently, happy to do just that.

Do you have any scientific verification God ever answered “impossible cases”?

Non-eyewitnesses hearing of these miracles could all claim the people were just tricked.

Witness of these miracles all believed in spiritual beings and could even blame them on satan.

InterestedAtheist said:
It may be that you do not believe any of the innumerable reports of miracles being worked in the last two thousand years, but that makes you a rather unusual Christian. Regardless, you have conceded the point that God did once work miracles in answer to prayers.

Non-eyewitnesses hearing of these miracles could all claim the people were just tricked.

Witness of these miracles all believed in spiritual beings and could even blame them on satan.

InterestedAtheist said:
Of course I don't. I have no need at all to believe that miraculous cures happen by chance. Show me an undeniable miracle, and I will believe in God.

Again, seeing an “undeniable miracle” does not result in believing in God, but gives you knowledge of God, which from my questions explains one problem with knowledge without faith.

InterestedAtheist said:
Yes. To God, there is no difference. To the asking Christian, there is no difference in kind, only in degree - asking God for a slightly bigger wish than the kind of wish millions of Christians ask Him for all the time.

Again, one kind of miracle does not negatively impact the nonbeliever and the other does, so God avoids doing the outward scientifically verifiable obvious miracles at this time.

InterestedAtheist said:
I cannot see that your answers address this in any way. You've said that God once did work miracles, but now does not. You have no proof of anything you maintain about it being bad for us, in some way, to see an undeniable miracle. It obviously wasn't bad for people in times past. This is just ad hoc rationalisations.

God does miracles all the time, just not scientifically verifiable miracles, which would result in knowledge of the Christian God’s existence without faith.

One obvious “bad” thing is what I discussed in my questions: “Unquestionable knowledge of the Biblical Christian God” would also mean, there is definitely a very frightening fearful judgement of the sinner, with heaven or hell in the balance. The big (maybe impossible) problem for the sinner with knowledge is to be motivated by a compelling Loving faith (believe which has not happen) and not by a frightening fear of God. Godly type Love drives out fear, but Godly type love cannot be produced from fear.

People “at the time” did not have “scientific answers” to rely on, for strange happenings and thus attributed these happenings to something spiritual, but not necessarily the Christian God.

cvanwey · Oct 23, 2020

bling said:
I do not believe all cancer is cured by God, even when Christians ask for it to be cured and add “not my will but Your will be done”.

Apparently, God's will is to 100% avoid addressing prayers in healing, for which humans cannot completely resolve exclusively upon their own.

bling said:
Just think what it would be for nonbelievers, if God obviously miraculously cured any and all sicknesses?

Well, God's works would be half way there, according to His own instruction. Believing is half the battle, apparently. And belief is also an absolute requirement, according to Scripture:

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

But as I keep saying, you do not have to follow. Take satan and a 1/3 of the angels, for instance. You have free choice to reject His offer. Thus, demonstration does not ruin anything. Just like if you were to find out some opposing God was real. You would still have the choice to follow or turn the other direction.

Let's flip this around real fast. You believe in God X. But let's just say God X does not exist, but God Y does. You do not believe in God Y. You then die, and then stand before God Y. He asks why you did not believe in Him. You tell Him there was not sufficient evidence. He states, too bad, and sends you to burn.

As you set there, burning for eternity, you ask yourself, as you scratch your head... 'He told me He did not want to completely demonstrate His presence to me, so I can come to know Him on my own." But if His requirement is belief, and you did not believe, because you do not think He is real, then are you justified in your eternal burning?

bling said:
Questions 1,2 and 3, you answered “no” which is fine, but the tangent after the answer does not relate to why it is "no".

How so?

bling said:
Question 4 is where I get to the heart of the matter which you are not address at all, but just restate what you have been saying totally not addressing the question.

Here we do start addressing the issue: Good solid knowledge of the Christian God’s existence, which also produces knowledge of Judgement, hell and heaven, would generate fear in many, most, all of the former nonbelievers. The Christian’s “fear” of God is really a respect for God, while the sinners frightening fear of God has to do with God’s judgement of him/her.

You somewhat avoid answering by going into a tangent about “Many people confessing to be “Christians” do stuff out of the fear of judgement, which does not make them “true-blue believers”.

From 1 Cor. 13:1-4, we know anything a Christian does no matter how great, without being motivated by Godly type Love is worthless, of not value, and hurting the cause. Christians are compelled by Love and Love drives frightening fear away.

I've answered/addressed this request, more than once. I can give you more than one reason, quite frankly:

1.) It is not logical to 'worship' something for which you doubt exists.
2.) God does require belief in Him. --> See the Verse quoted above....
3.) And combining the two - 1.) and 2.) sincerity cannot be met, if you have doubt in His mere existence --> logically.
4.) You cannot control what you believe. If an atheist does not currently believe He exists, anything short of direct revelation, maybe like Sal of Tarsus for example, is likely not going to sway an atheist otherwise.

Hence, if belief is an absolute requirement, and belief cannot be controlled, 'sincerity' cannot be met logically. Sincerity is only met by believing He first really exists....

bling said:
Avoiding this generating of frightening fear in some people is plenty enough reason for God to not perform any outwardly scientifically verifiable healings.

I say this yet again. You are pulling this answer out of your hoo-ha.

Please tell me WHY you KNOW this is what God thinks, and this is why He will never address amputees, cerebral palsy cases, or Downs?

bling said:
It all starts with believing (faith) or not believing and not with unquestionable knowledge.

The person who does not believe (faith/trust), also would not believe they are condemned, so there is no frightening fear there. And, the person who believes is not condemned, so there is no fear there either.

The believer is showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts including: eternal life, the indwelling Holy Spirit, Love, purpose and a new wonderful family, so their actions would be out of a gratitude type of Love.

It does not matter what the human thinks, it would only matter what God thinks. Just because a person 100% thinks they are saved, and has no fear of hell because of this, does not mean anything really. And on the flip side, many Catholics for example, fear their 'works based' salvation may still not be up to snuff. --- even if they are sincere and earnest worshiping Christians.

Seems highly UNLIKELY that God is AVOIDING 100% of the requests to address amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, because He's afraid unbelievers may have a 'wrong thought process.' Heck, He should be more concerned with clearing up all the conflicting Christians thoughts, whom directly contradict with each other (i.e.) all of whom use the same Bible as their tool).

bling said:
Very good! Having to believe first allows you and everyone else to avoid frightening fear. Knowledge without first believing creates frightening fear and no real path to believing.

You either believe He is real, or you do not. There really is no other conclusion here. Sure, you can have varying degrees of belief or doubt. --- (i.e.) on a scale of 1 to 7, in regards to disbelief, Richard Dawkins may be a 6.8?

But that's where you start. And then, we see all you cats here... Claimed Christians whom all assert MANY DIFFERING things there-after the 'belief'....

(i.e.) You are saved by grace alone. You are saved by grace and faith. You are saved by grace, faith, and works. Hell is literal and real. All non-believers cease to exist after death. Hell is merely a separation from God. God does not intervene to allow complete freewill, etc etc etc...........

Your given rationalization holds absolutely no water. Many believers fear hell. Many believers do not. Many ex believers still fear the concept of hell, but still cannot get themselves to believe He is real anyways. Indoctrination is a funny thing really...

bling said:
Above, I explained the reason, you need to first believe.

Well then, your reason has now been thoroughly debunked. Can you please pray for God to contact me now? If not, why not?

I think I know why? But will you be earnest enough to admit the real reason?.?.?

bling · Oct 23, 2020

cvanwey said:
Apparently, God's will is to 100% avoid addressing prayers in healing, for which humans cannot completely resolve exclusively upon their own.

God heals, but not so humans can scientifically prove it was miraculous.

cvanwey said:
Well, God's works would be half way there, according to His own instruction. Believing is half the battle, apparently. And belief is also an absolute requirement, according to Scripture:

cvanwey said:
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

But as I keep saying, you do not have to follow. Take satan and a 1/3 of the angels, for instance. You have free choice to reject His offer. Thus, demonstration does not ruin anything. Just like if you were to find out some opposing God was real. You would still have the choice to follow or turn the other direction.

Let's flip this around real fast. You believe in God X. But let's just say God X does not exist, but God Y does. You do not believe in God Y. You then die, and then stand before God Y. He asks why you did not believe in Him. You tell Him there was not sufficient evidence. He states, too bad, and sends you to burn.

cvanwey said:
As you set there, burning for eternity, you ask yourself, as you scratch your head... 'He told me He did not want to completely demonstrate His presence to me, so I can come to know Him on my own." But if His requirement is belief, and you did not believe, because you do not think He is real, then are you justified in your eternal burning?

Unquestionable knowledge of God’s existence is not a believe in God’s existence, but knowledge of God’s existence.

cvanwey said:
How so?

As you agree: unquestionable knowledge of God’s existence does not automatically make you a Christian and even doing stuff like going to church, reading your Bible and being baptized does not make you a Christian. Doing stuff out of a frighting fear of God is wrong and does not make you a Christian. You have to humbly lovingly believe and accept God’s charity as charity.

cvanwey said:
I've answered/addressed this request, more than once. I can give you more than one reason, quite frankly:

1.) It is not logical to 'worship' something for which you doubt exists.
2.) God does require belief in Him. --> See the Verse quoted above....
3.) And combining the two - 1.) and 2.) sincerity cannot be met, if you have doubt in His mere existence --> logically.
4.) You cannot control what you believe. If an atheist does not currently believe He exists, anything short of direct revelation, maybe like Sal of Tarsus for example, is likely not going to sway an atheist otherwise.

Hence, if belief is an absolute requirement, and belief cannot be controlled, 'sincerity' cannot be met logically. Sincerity is only met by believing He first really exists....

Belief is not knowledge.

You do not start out worshipping God, that comes later with the gift of a gratitude type of Love.

The lowliest mature adult on earth can believe in a benevolent Creator, so this is not some great hurdle.

As you pointed out in your answer’s “knowledge” does not make you a Christian.

cvanwey said:
I say this yet again. You are pulling this answer out of your hoo-ha.

Please tell me WHY you KNOW this is what God thinks, and this is why He will never address amputees, cerebral palsy cases, or Downs?

I do pray for wisdom and God does grant me spiritual wisdom.

It fits the objective.

You can reason it out.

But you support and help me with your own answers. The “objective” is not to have you acknowledge God’s existence and/or to worship God out of fear. You have to trust in a benevolent Creator to the point you are willing to allow Him to help you, mainly to humbly accept His forgiveness of the huge debt your sins have created.

Jesus teaches us in Luke 7 and you might have your own experience: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so God has made the debt of sin unbelievably huge, so when we accept God’s forgiveness of the unbelievable huge debt we automatically receive as a pure undeserved gift an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). The problem is it takes a little humility to humble one’s self. That little humility can be found in just the believe in a benevolent Creator.

Most of the time when I try to understand why God does anything I start with the objective since the objective would drive everything and the I also look at: “What if God did the opposite”, what would happen and see the logic behind what He is doing.

cvanwey said:
It does not matter what the human thinks, it would only matter what God thinks. Just because a person 100% thinks they are saved, and has no fear of hell because of this, does not mean anything really. And on the flip side, many Catholics for example, fear their 'works based' salvation may still not be up to snuff. --- even if they are sincere and earnest worshiping Christians.

What we inwardly have on our hearts is what God looks at to judge us. Our Love, motives, character and attitude are what God is judging.

cvanwey said:
Seems highly UNLIKELY that God is AVOIDING 100% of the requests to address amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, because He's afraid unbelievers may have a 'wrong thought process.' Heck, He should be more concerned with clearing up all the conflicting Christians thoughts, whom directly contradict with each other (i.e.) all of whom use the same Bible as their tool).

God is that concerned about you. The fact a child has or is an amputee, cerebral palsy, and Downs, does not keep them out of heaven and that is what is really important. As Jesus taught us: “The flesh counts for nothing”.

cvanwey said:
You either believe He is real, or you do not. There really is no other conclusion here. Sure, you can have varying degrees of belief or doubt. --- (i.e.) on a scale of 1 to 7, in regards to disbelief, Richard Dawkins may be a 6.8?

But that's where you start. And then, we see all you cats here... Claimed Christians whom all assert MANY DIFFERING things there-after the 'belief'....

(i.e.) You are saved by grace alone. You are saved by grace and faith. You are saved by grace, faith, and works. Hell is literal and real. All non-believers cease to exist after death. Hell is merely a separation from God. God does not intervene to allow complete freewill, etc etc etc...........

Your given rationalization holds absolutely no water. Many believers fear hell. Many believers do not. Many ex believers still fear the concept of hell, but still cannot get themselves to believe He is real anyways. Indoctrination is a funny thing really...

Is there a question in all these random thoughts?

I am truly sorry for all your confusion with the different teaching people saying they are “Christians” are teaching. Your destiny is up to you.

cvanwey said:
Well then, your reason has now been thoroughly debunked. Can you please pray for God to contact me now? If not, why not?

I think I know why? But will you be earnest enough to admit the real reason?.?.?

You really explained my reason with you own answers. It is best for you to avoid having unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God’s existence. This is something you have to believe.

cvanwey · Oct 23, 2020

bling said:
God heals, but not so humans can scientifically prove it was miraculous.

God heals, only as long as you can already do it without the necessity of a God.

Coincidence?

bling said:
Unquestionable knowledge of God’s existence is not a believe in God’s existence, but knowledge of God’s existence.

Then we just go right back to what I stated. Maybe Richard Dawkins has enough belief?

How much is enough? Using your rationale, maybe every atheist is a believer, as they have doubt, but cannot assert, with 100% knowledge, that YHWH is non-existent.

But like I keep saying, and you keep avoiding, the Verse states you must also be baptized. And only the ones whom are pretty darn confident He's real, if you know what I mean, would do such a thing.

Welp, I asked for 30+ years, and nothing. So either a) God skipped me, b) I'm too covered in sin, or c) there is no such God.

Again, Occam's razor applies...

bling said:
As you agree: unquestionable knowledge of God’s existence does not automatically make you a Christian and even doing stuff like going to church, reading your Bible and being baptized does not make you a Christian. Doing stuff out of a frighting fear of God is wrong and does not make you a Christian. You have to humbly lovingly believe and accept God’s charity as charity.

As I keep saying, none of this is even relevant to discuss, or possible to conceive, if you doubt He is real in the first place

Just like you completely doubt Zeus, I reckon.

bling said:
Belief is not knowledge.

You do not start out worshipping God, that comes later with the gift of a gratitude type of Love.

The lowliest mature adult on earth can believe in a benevolent Creator, so this is not some great hurdle.

As you pointed out in your answer’s “knowledge” does not make you a Christian.

Again, if I doubt He is real, the rest is just talking points, with no substance attached. ...

I doubt YHWH, just like you doubt Zeus. If Zeus has a claimed big book of commands, and you read it, you may be doing what I am now... Which is, pointing out the many inconsistencies, and bringing them to light with the ones whom come here to assert these claims as 'truth' to all skeptics of Zeus.

Like myself, you would merely be presenting observations about such perceived contradictions, as claimed to have been asserted by Zeus.

bling said:
I do pray for wisdom and God does grant me spiritual wisdom.

It fits the objective.

You can reason it out.

But you support and help me with your own answers. The “objective” is not to have you acknowledge God’s existence and/or to worship God out of fear. You have to trust in a benevolent Creator to the point you are willing to allow Him to help you, mainly to humbly accept His forgiveness of the huge debt your sins have created.

Jesus teaches us in Luke 7 and you might have your own experience: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so God has made the debt of sin unbelievably huge, so when we accept God’s forgiveness of the unbelievable huge debt we automatically receive as a pure undeserved gift an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). The problem is it takes a little humility to humble one’s self. That little humility can be found in just the believe in a benevolent Creator.

Most of the time when I try to understand why God does anything I start with the objective since the objective would drive everything and the I also look at: “What if God did the opposite”, what would happen and see the logic behind what He is doing.

I see nothing here which addresses my question. I'll ask again:

Please tell me WHY you KNOW this is what God thinks, and this is why He will never address amputees, cerebral palsy cases, or Downs?

bling said:
What we inwardly have on our hearts is what God looks at to judge us. Our Love, motives, character and attitude are what God is judging.

And like I've stated many times now, many are sincere. But God will never answer their calls in healing, if it is regarding an amputee, cerebral palsy, or Downs. Coincidence?

bling said:
God is that concerned about you. The fact a child has or is an amputee, cerebral palsy, and Downs, does not keep them out of heaven and that is what is really important. As Jesus taught us: “The flesh counts for nothing”.

But you yourself have already states God answers the call to prayers in healing. Hence, He must care enough to answer sometimes.

Don't you find it quite coincidental that He does so for conditions and illnesses we humans can address ourselves, but completely avoids the ones we can't?

bling said:
Is there a question in all these random thoughts?

I am truly sorry for all your confusion with the different teaching people saying they are “Christians” are teaching. Your destiny is up to you.

I am not the one confused. Again, I am just an innocent observer. Just like you might be, if someone was making Zeus assertions towards you, and you reply with discerned contradictory observations. You Christians all seem confused, quite frankly

Every one I speak to here, has a differing take on things.

I sincerely doubt it is common consensus, among Christians, that God does not EVER answer the prayers for amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs because it might then ruin an atheist's free will - (or whatever other malarkey you appear to be presenting). Sorry, no offense

bling said:
You really explained my reason with you own answers. It is best for you to avoid having unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God’s existence. This is something you have to believe.

I'm going to make a statement now. An assertion even.... I think you will not state you are going to pray for God to contact me, because you know nothing will happen. And not because "God chooses not to", but instead because, deep down somewhere, you know not to pray for things we cannot do ourselves. If there was such a claiming God, you would sometimes see healing, which does not EXCLUDE any/all diseases and conditions for which we humans cannot tackle/resolve ourselves

InterestedAtheist · Oct 24, 2020

bling said:
I would still like to hear your answers to 4,5,6,7.

They're essentially just the same as @cvanwey 's

bling said:
Do you have any scientific verification God ever answered “impossible cases”?

I think you mean "never". And no, I don't. I freely admit that it's possible that God does exist and does answer prayers with miracles.
On the other hand, I also freely admit that it's possible the tooth fairy exists, Santa Claus exists and the Easter Bunny exists. Not likely. Ridiculously unlikely. But possible. And that's my stance with God and miracles as well.

bling said:
Non-eyewitnesses hearing of these miracles could all claim the people were just tricked.

Quite possibly, yes.

bling said:
Witness of these miracles all believed in spiritual beings and could even blame them on satan.

Sure.

bling said:
Non-eyewitnesses hearing of these miracles could all claim the people were just tricked.
Witness of these miracles all believed in spiritual beings and could even blame them on satan.

I suppose so. I'm not sure if any of this is relevant, though.

bling said:
Again, seeing an “undeniable miracle” does not result in believing in God, but gives you knowledge of God, which from my questions explains one problem with knowledge without faith.

I don't see what your problem is with this. As @cvanwey is also arguing, why would it be a problem for us if we believed that God existed? We would still have to make decisions about whether or not we would worship Him, become Christians, etc.
On the other hand, unless we have some reason to believe that God does exist, there's no possibility that we can become Christians. How do you love someone without believing they exist?

bling said:
Again, one kind of miracle does not negatively impact the nonbeliever and the other does, so God avoids doing the outward scientifically verifiable obvious miracles at this time.

Again, I see no reason for God to hide Himself as you are suggesting He is.

bling said:
God does miracles all the time, just not scientifically verifiable miracles, which would result in knowledge of the Christian God’s existence without faith.

I think @cvanwey answered this already. A strange coincidence that God only ever answers prayers that might happen anyway. That being the case, it seems much more reasonable to suppose that these "answered prayers" are just things that might happen anyways.

bling said:
One obvious “bad” thing is what I discussed in my questions: “Unquestionable knowledge of the Biblical Christian God” would also mean, there is definitely a very frightening fearful judgement of the sinner, with heaven or hell in the balance. The big (maybe impossible) problem for the sinner with knowledge is to be motivated by a compelling Loving faith (believe which has not happen) and not by a frightening fear of God. Godly type Love drives out fear, but Godly type love cannot be produced from fear.

You say this is obvious, but I don't think it's obvious at all. Christians are frightened of hell themselves, as well they should be, and often do their best to scare other people. If hell is real, then of course I want to know about it. The idea of hell as a stick and heaven as a carrot is a familiar one from Christian apologetics, and the answer to your objection is that God is here to save us from hell, and we should love Him for that.
This is what we mean by ad hoc rationalisations. You're just coming across these problems, and making up solutions to them on no real basis that I can see, except that they work to get you off the hook, even if they don't make sense.

bling · Oct 26, 2020

cvanwey said:
God heals, only as long as you can already do it without the necessity of a God. Coincidence?

No coincidence, all done for your benefit and the Kingdom.

cvanwey said:
Then we just go right back to what I stated. Maybe Richard Dawkins has enough belief? How much is enough? Using your rationale, maybe every atheist is a believer, as they have doubt, but cannot assert, with 100% knowledge, that YHWH is non-existent.

But like I keep saying, and you keep avoiding, the Verse states you must also be baptized. And only the ones whom are pretty darn confident He's real, if you know what I mean, would do such a thing.

Welp, I asked for 30+ years, and nothing. So either a) God skipped me, b) I'm too covered in sin, or c) there is no such God.

Again, Occam's razor applies...

It is truly amazing how everything has worked together to help bring you to this point. To be able to make a truly autonomous free will choice to humble accept or reject God’s help. Not knowing for certain the Christian God exists allows you to choose between believing or not believing, without having the gun at your head of judgement.

You are trying to use “Occam razor” to make the choice, but the choice is the existence or nonexistence of God, which covers lots of areas and not just pray.

We first have to get our motive right before being baptized:

Being baptized out of fear means you got wet.

cvanwey said:
As I keep saying, none of this is even relevant to discuss, or possible to conceive, if you doubt He is real in the first place Just like you completely doubt Zeus, I reckon.

Doubt is not the problem, since we go into the relationship with faith and not certain knowledge of God’s existence. Like we agreed, knowledge of God produces a frightening fear of God and does not produce Love.

cvanwey said:
Again, if I doubt He is real, the rest is just talking points, with no substance attached. ...

I doubt YHWH, just like you doubt Zeus. If Zeus has a claimed big book of commands, and you read it, you may be doing what I am now... Which is, pointing out the many inconsistencies, and bringing them to light with the ones whom come here to assert these claims as 'truth' to all skeptics of Zeus.

Like myself, you would merely be presenting observations about such perceived contradictions, as claimed to have been asserted by Zeus.

I know of no one being changed for the good by believing in Zeus and I know lots of people changed for the good by believing in Jesus, so why would I even want to believe in Zeus?

How would believing in Zeus help me?

Why would you want to believe in God?

How would believing in God help you?

With believe in God allows us to accept His forgiveness, obtain His Love (unselfishness), and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. With the indwelling Holy Spirit, we have a guarantee and knowledge of God keeping all His promises.

cvanwey said:
I see nothing here which addresses my question. I'll ask again:

Please tell me WHY you KNOW this is what God thinks, and this is why He will never address amputees, cerebral palsy cases, or Downs?

I have God’s Spirit dwelling within me.

cvanwey said:
And like I've stated many times now, many are sincere. But God will never answer their calls in healing, if it is regarding an amputee, cerebral palsy, or Downs. Coincidence?

cvanwey said:
But you yourself have already states God answers the call to prayers in healing. Hence, He must care enough to answer sometimes.

cvanwey said:
Don't you find it quite coincidental that He does so for conditions and illnesses we humans can address ourselves, but completely avoids the ones we can't?

God cares about everyone all the time.

The healing or not healing of the person is not what makes a difference in their salvation nor the salvation of those around the disable person, unless it is happening where and when it does really need to happen. It needed to happen for some people in the first century and the prophets of old.

Please look at the healings in the first century, because not everyone was healed in the Roman Empire at that time. The “healings” were mostly to show who God was working through at the time and really mostly for the Jews.

There has to be a benefit to the kingdom and the salvation of others for healing to take place.

Knowledge of God existence is not a benefit.

cvanwey said:
I'm going to make a statement now. An assertion even.... I think you will not state you are going to pray for God to contact me, because you know nothing will happen. And not because "God chooses not to", but instead because, deep down somewhere, you know not to pray for things we cannot do ourselves. If there was such a claiming God, you would sometimes see healing, which does not EXCLUDE any/all diseases and conditions for which we humans cannot tackle/resolve ourselves

If I prayed for anything that would not help and even hurt someone, I would always add do not fulfill that pray. We already agree unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God of the Bible would generate a frightening fear in you, which would not help you get to the point of worshipping God out of Love.

bling · Oct 26, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
They're essentially just the same as @cvanwey 's

I think you mean "never". And no, I don't. I freely admit that it's possible that God does exist and does answer prayers with miracles.
On the other hand, I also freely admit that it's possible the tooth fairy exists, Santa Claus exists and the Easter Bunny exists. Not likely. Ridiculously unlikely. But possible. And that's my stance with God and miracles as well.

OK

InterestedAtheist said:
Quite possibly, yes.

Sure.

I suppose so. I'm not sure if any of this is relevant, though.

OK

InterestedAtheist said:
I don't see what your problem is with this. As @cvanwey is also arguing, why would it be a problem for us if we believed that God existed? We would still have to make decisions about whether or not we would worship Him, become Christians, etc.
On the other hand, unless we have some reason to believe that God does exist, there's no possibility that we can become Christians. How do you love someone without believing they exist?

You did not answer the questions and you want me to use @cvanwey’s answers so:

Knowing for certain the Christian God of the Bible exists, also means Judgement, heaven and hell exists. @cvanwey’s pointed out that Judgement and hell would make God out to be frightening feared by him and most others sinners. It is like putting a gun to the head of a sinner telling him/her to worship and Love God or else you go to hell. “Frightening fear” cannot be used as the motive for doing anything of value, especially, to “Love” God. There is no path going from a frightening fear of God to Loving worship of God or really doing anything “good”.

Having to first believe, means you are not hell bound and if you do not believe you have no fear of judgement and hell.

InterestedAtheist said:
Again, I see no reason for God to hide Himself as you are suggesting He is.

Answered above.

InterestedAtheist said:
I think @cvanwey answered this already. A strange coincidence that God only ever answers prayers that might happen anyway. That being the case, it seems much more reasonable to suppose that these "answered prayers" are just things that might happen anyways.

No! answered above.

InterestedAtheist said:
You say this is obvious, but I don't think it's obvious at all. Christians are frightened of hell themselves, as well they should be, and often do their best to scare other people. If hell is real, then of course I want to know about it. The idea of hell as a stick and heaven as a carrot is a familiar one from Christian apologetics, and the answer to your objection is that God is here to save us from hell, and we should love Him for that.
This is what we mean by ad hoc rationalisations. You're just coming across these problems, and making up solutions to them on no real basis that I can see, except that they work to get you off the hook, even if they don't make sense.

“True” Christians with the indwelling Holy Spirit as their guarantee of all God’s promises including heaven, have no reason to fear hell.

Some people calling themselves “Christians” might fear hell, but do not pass judgement on Christians because of them.

Hell does not benefit those going to hell nor does it help God nor does it help the true Christian, but unfortunately it does help the new believer to realize how bad sin really is, since it is the penalty for sin. God has made sin to be hugely significant and the debt it creates way beyond belief, but since God is plenty willing and wanting to forgive this huge debt, our just humbly accepting His forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt results in us obtaining an unbelievable huge Love, Godly type Love (Luke 7).

InterestedAtheist · Oct 26, 2020

bling said:
OK

So, when I say "it's possible the tooth fairy exists, Santa Claus exists and the Easter Bunny exists. Not likely. Ridiculously unlikely. But possible. And that's my stance with God and miracles as well," we need evidence that these things exist. Lacking such evidence, as we do with God, the only sensible response is to not believe in them.

bling said:
Knowing for certain the Christian God of the Bible exists, also means Judgement, heaven and hell exists. @cvanwey’s pointed out that Judgement and hell would make God out to be frightening feared by him and most others sinners. It is like putting a gun to the head of a sinner telling him/her to worship and Love God or else you go to hell. “Frightening fear” cannot be used as the motive for doing anything of value, especially, to “Love” God. There is no path going from a frightening fear of God to Loving worship of God or really doing anything “good”.

This does not seem to answer, or even address, my question:
How do you love someone without believing they exist?

bling said:
Answered above.

I do not see anywhere where you already answered why God would hide Himself from us. You have yet to explain why He would do this, since He was quite happy to reveal Himself in very public ways before, and since many Christians believe that He is quite happy to reveal Himself now.

bling said:
No! answered above.

You said that it is not coincidence that God always "reveals" Himself through by answering prayers for things that might happen anyway. But if the only prayers that are ever "answered" are for things that might have happened by sheer chance anyway, maybe it was just sheer chance. I can see no reason to think that it wasn't.
Again: if God is real, as you claim, and if God answers prayers for healing, as you claim He does, then we should see statistical evidence of this. Christians have an edge on probability. The prayers of non-Christians will not be answered, if they even make such prayers.
Look at it like this:
Imagine we could collate the data of people recovering from sicknesses. Assume a population of one million atheists, one million Christians and one million believers of a different, false religion.
The atheists will not be praying. Therefore, their recovery rates will be strictly natural.
The believers of a false religion will be praying, but their prayers will be ineffective since they are praying to the wrong God. Therefore, their recovery rates will be strictly natural.
The Christians will be praying. Some of their prayers will not be answered by God but, as you your self have claimed, some of them will be. Therefore, their recovery rates will be unexpectedly higher, due to the fraction of prayers that God chooses to answer.
If your claim is true, this is the kind of thing we should be seeing. But we don't. Therefore, your claim that God answers some prayers for healing is demonstrably false.

bling said:
Some people calling themselves “Christians” might fear hell, but do not pass judgement on Christians because of them.

You are committing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Why should I believe that these Christians are not "true" Christians, when they state they are and tell me that it is you who are mistaken?

bling said:
Hell does not benefit those going to hell nor does it help God nor does it help the true Christian, but unfortunately it does help the new believer to realize how bad sin really is, since it is the penalty for sin. God has made sin to be hugely significant and the debt it creates way beyond belief, but since God is plenty willing and wanting to forgive this huge debt, our just humbly accepting His forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt results in us obtaining an unbelievable huge Love, Godly type Love (Luke 7).

Well, you've said it yourself. Hell benefits the new Christian by making them realise how bad sin is. Sin is a terrifying punishment, and many Christians have, and continue to, make the case that we should turn to God for fear of it. This seems perfectly rational to me, if you accept their premise that God, heaven and hell exist. And, as I have said before, there is a well-used Christian argument that fear of sin leads to love of a God who would save us from it.

cvanwey · Oct 26, 2020

bling said:
No coincidence, all done for your benefit and the Kingdom.

I doubt NEVER answering the call to healing amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, is for MY benefit. If God heals, He would heal these individuals, at the same rate He does for all others. But He only heals conditions for which humans can already do without prayer.

bling said:
It is truly amazing how everything has worked together to help bring you to this point. To be able to make a truly autonomous free will choice to humble accept or reject God’s help. Not knowing for certain the Christian God exists allows you to choose between believing or not believing, without having the gun at your head of judgement.

Knowing whether He exists or not has nothing to do with 'a gun to your head.' You either believe, based upon your own sufficient perceived evidence, or you do not.

If I placed a gun to your head, no matter how scared you were, could I ever force you to believe Zeus is real? I doubt it

bling said:
You are trying to use “Occam razor” to make the choice, but the choice is the existence or nonexistence of God, which covers lots of areas and not just pray.

Look at all the extra assumptions you are forced to put into place to 'justify' your assertion that God avoids any/all requests to heal amputees, cerebral palsy. and Downs.

bling said:
We first have to get our motive right before being baptized:

Being baptized out of fear means you got wet.

Without true belief He is real, I doubt you have any 'motive.'

bling said:
Doubt is not the problem, since we go into the relationship with faith and not certain knowledge of God’s existence. Like we agreed, knowledge of God produces a frightening fear of God and does not produce Love.

I trust we agree you cannot love something for which you do not think exists????????????????

bling said:
I know of no one being changed for the good by believing in Zeus and I know lots of people changed for the good by believing in Jesus, so why would I even want to believe in Zeus?

So if a Scientologist stops being a thief/murderer, due to their belief in Xenu, then such a belief now holds more truth or merit???

bling said:
How would believing in Zeus help me?

I don't know. But don't you want to know if He really exists?

bling said:
Why would you want to believe in God?

I searched for Him for decades. I would like to know if my belief was ever justified. Thus far, it is not. Do you have anything to demonstrate otherwise?

bling said:
How would believing in God help you?

I currently kind of don't, so I cannot answer this question.

bling said:
I have God’s Spirit dwelling within me.

How do you know you have 'God’s Spirit dwelling within' you?

bling said:
God cares about everyone all the time.

I disagree. For starters, If God truly cared about everyone, why watch small defenseless innocent children get rapes, slowly starve to death, perpetually tortured, and etc, every day all day? And why also watch all these children die prior to theodicy?

bling said:
The healing or not healing of the person is not what makes a difference in their salvation nor the salvation of those around the disable person, unless it is happening where and when it does really need to happen. It needed to happen for some people in the first century and the prophets of old.

Please look at the healings in the first century, because not everyone was healed in the Roman Empire at that time. The “healings” were mostly to show who God was working through at the time and really mostly for the Jews.

There has to be a benefit to the kingdom and the salvation of others for healing to take place.

Again, I'm watching from the side-lines here. I'm merely making an observation that God perpetually skips the prayer requests of any/all whom pray for things for which the human cannot resolve themselves. Seems quite coincidental and makes me ask....

How are you so certain that God does answer the call to prayers in healing, if this is what we observe - (that He never seems to address requests humans cannot resolve without prayer)?

Maybe He does not answer any prayers in healing?

bling said:
Knowledge of God existence is not a benefit.

False:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

If you have lack in belief, you surely cannot have knowledge of His existence now can you...

bling said:
If I prayed for anything that would not help and even hurt someone, I would always add do not fulfill that pray. We already agree unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God of the Bible would generate a frightening fear in you, which would not help you get to the point of worshipping God out of Love.

If I do not believe He exists, I certainly cannot fulfill Mark 16:16. If you have the power to help facilitate this process, why won't you????

As it stands, and according to the Bible, I am currently guaranteed to be placed in hell. Thus, your current response looks to be nonsense.

bling · Oct 27, 2020

cvanwey said:
I doubt NEVER answering the call to healing amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs, is for MY benefit. If God heals, He would heal these individuals, at the same rate He does for all others. But He only heals conditions for which humans can already do without prayer.

Where do you find in scripture: “at the same rate He does for all others”?

The difference in the “rate of healing”, has everything to do with the benefit the healing will have for all people and the Kingdom.

cvanwey said:
Knowing whether He exists or not has nothing to do with 'a gun to your head.' You either believe, based upon your own sufficient perceived evidence, or you do not.

cvanwey said:
If I placed a gun to your head, no matter how scared you were, could I ever force you to believe Zeus is real? I doubt it

I was not referring to believing in any of this? Hell being a gun to the head is only for the known believer who now has unquestionable knowledge of God’s existence and now we are talking about worshipping and Loving God.

If I had unquestionable proof of Zeus’ existence, I would not be believing in Zeus but would know he existed, so I would have to acknowledge Zeus’ existence without a gun to the head or be just really stupid.

The gun to your head comes with unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God of the Bible’s existence, which includes heaven, hell and judgement. How do you go from a frightening fear to a Loving believe to remove the gun?

cvanwey said:
Look at all the extra assumptions you are forced to put into place to 'justify' your assertion that God avoids any/all requests to heal amputees, cerebral palsy. and Downs.

The only “assertion” I am making is what is best for you and the Kingdom, dictates who, when and how healing takes place.

cvanwey said:
Without true belief He is real, I doubt you have any 'motive.'

“Belief” is fine, but unquestionable knowledge will not help.

cvanwey said:
I trust we agree you cannot love something for which you do not think exists????????????????

We can agree. But realize this, when we turn to God it is not out of a Love for God (that come later) and I am certainly not asking you to Love God right now, but believe in God.

cvanwey said:
So if a Scientologist stops being a thief/murderer, due to their belief in Xenu, then such a belief now holds more truth or merit???

It would make me intellectually interested in it.

cvanwey said:
I don't know. But don't you want to know if He really exists?

No

cvanwey said:
I searched for Him for decades. I would like to know if my belief was ever justified. Thus far, it is not. Do you have anything to demonstrate otherwise?

This sounds like a very intellectual reason you had.

cvanwey said:
I currently kind of don't, so I cannot answer this question.

You are saying: “I do not know how it would help me”, so it is all intellectual.

cvanwey said:
How do you know you have 'God’s Spirit dwelling within' you?

cvanwey said:
I disagree. For starters, If God truly cared about everyone, why watch small defenseless innocent children get rapes, slowly starve to death, perpetually tortured, and etc, every day all day? And why also watch all these children die prior to theodicy?

If you need to blame someone for all this bad stuff happening, just blame me. If I had ceased the opportunities before me more quickly and done what I know already to do, there would be a lot fewer opportunities like these in the world. I have a lot to be forgiven of.

This world is not heaven, but is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. Unfortunately, bad stuff does happen and produces opportunities for true Christians to step in and create show Love, experience Love, give Love, accept Love and grow Love. God is Love, so when others see true Love they are seeing God and thus can Love God (Love).

cvanwey said:
Again, I'm watching from the side-lines here. I'm merely making an observation that God perpetually skips the prayer requests of any/all whom pray for things for which the human cannot resolve themselves. Seems quite coincidental and makes me ask....

How are you so certain that God does answer the call to prayers in healing, if this is what we observe - (that He never seems to address requests humans cannot resolve without prayer)?

Maybe He does not answer any prayers in healing?

All healing or non-healings involves God, since they impact the good of believers.

I have seen healings take place, which I was guided by the Spirit to believe were miraculously done.

cvanwey said:
False:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

If you have lack in belief, you surely cannot have knowledge of His existence now can you...

Believe is hugely beneficial, but knowledge of God’s existence for the nonbeliever is not beneficial, partly because, they remain nonbelievers.

cvanwey said:
If I do not believe He exists, I certainly cannot fulfill Mark 16:16. If you have the power to help facilitate this process, why won't you????

As it stands, and according to the Bible, I am currently guaranteed to be placed in hell. Thus, your current response looks to be nonsense.

You want me to pray for you to have unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God’s existence, which is not saving faith (believe) in God’s existence. You have within you right now the ability to believe in the Benevolent Creator.

Would being given a diagnosis of a week to live, help you to truly seek to believe/trust in a benevolent Creator?

cvanwey · Oct 27, 2020

bling said:
Where do you find in scripture: “at the same rate He does for all others”?

The difference in the “rate of healing”, has everything to do with the benefit the healing will have for all people and the Kingdom.

Where does it say "the benefit the healing will have for all people and the Kingdom." ?

What the Bible does say is: Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23

Which implies God answers the prayers of earnest requests, with no such caveats attached. Which would mean if God answers the call to prayers in healing, it does not look to EXCLUDE requests to heal diseases and conditions for which humans cannot resolve upon their own

bling said:
I was not referring to believing in any of this? Hell being a gun to the head is only for the known believer who now has unquestionable knowledge of God’s existence and now we are talking about worshipping and Loving God.

If I had unquestionable proof of Zeus’ existence, I would not be believing in Zeus but would know he existed, so I would have to acknowledge Zeus’ existence without a gun to the head or be just really stupid.

The gun to your head comes with unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God of the Bible’s existence, which includes heaven, hell and judgement. How do you go from a frightening fear to a Loving believe to remove the gun?

We already touched upon this many posts ago

Belief is not a choice. I'm straight up telling you, that without some sort of "Damascus road experience", I do not believe or have knowledge of His existence. If God is all knowing, He would know this...

God, apparently, also proclaims that belief is a requirement. Well, He would know I do not currently believe. And further still, He would also be aware that I'm now asking you to pray to have Him contact me. And the fact that you will not, continues to look quite peculiar. ----> It goes right back to the OP... (paraphrased)... "Why don't Christians ever pray for things for which they know will not happen?"

bling said:
The only “assertion” I am making is what is best for you and the Kingdom, dictates who, when and how healing takes place.

I did not state 'assertion', I stated assumptions. Using Occam's razor, which of the two is more likely? Which of the two harbor more assumption?

a. God does not exist. The people which assert He does, are merely 'connecting the dots' or 'accepting the hits and ignoring the misses'.

b. God does exist. He apparently answers prayer requests to heal. He also tells His readers He will address your prayers when asked. However, He chooses to perpetually exclude requests which humans cannot address without prayer. Further, He additionally apparently relies upon humans to rationalize, on their own, why this is the case.

bling said:
We can agree. But realize this, when we turn to God it is not out of a Love for God (that come later) and I am certainly not asking you to Love God right now, but believe in God.

You almost fully acknowledged the simple conclusion, and started to agree, but then went off tangent???

If one does not believe something exists, it's kind of hard to love such a suspected non-existent Being. You must first believe before love could ever be possible. If belief never comes, then neither will love follow.

bling said:
It would make me intellectually interested in it.

All this would demonstrate is that beliefs can alter your actions. An atheist whom later becomes a Muslim, Mormon, Catholic, Scientologist, Buddhist, or other would likely change in some 'profound/good/positive' way.

Please remember what you stated "I know of no one being changed for the good by believing in Zeus and I know lots of people changed for the good by believing in Jesus."

Many will change for the 'good' after proscribing to some religious doctrine. But this has no bearing on whether or not such truth claims are actually true

***********************************

Please answer the question you skipped:

How do you know you have 'God’s Spirit dwelling within' you?

bling said:
If you need to blame someone for all this bad stuff happening, just blame me. If I had ceased the opportunities before me more quickly and done what I know already to do, there would be a lot fewer opportunities like these in the world. I have a lot to be forgiven of.

This world is not heaven, but is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. Unfortunately, bad stuff does happen and produces opportunities for true Christians to step in and create show Love, experience Love, give Love, accept Love and grow Love. God is Love, so when others see true Love they are seeing God and thus can Love God (Love).

I'm not 'blaming.' I'm asking a simple question. You made no attempt in answering...

If God "loves" everyone, what be the point in allowing the suffering, torture, and death of young children, prior to the age of theodicy?

bling said:
All healing or non-healings involves God, since they impact the good of believers.

I have seen healings take place, which I was guided by the Spirit to believe were miraculously done.

Please give me an example of healing taking place, which you know was God-guided?

bling said:
Believe is hugely beneficial, but knowledge of God’s existence for the nonbeliever is not beneficial, partly because, they remain nonbelievers.

Thank you for the deepity. Can you please actually address the prior statement now???

False:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

If you have lack in belief, you surely cannot have knowledge of His existence now can you...

bling said:
You want me to pray for you to have unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God’s existence, which is not saving faith (believe) in God’s existence. You have within you right now the ability to believe in the Benevolent Creator.

Would being given a diagnosis of a week to live, help you to truly seek to believe/trust in a benevolent Creator?

Your response is irrelevant, and distracting to the request.

The beginning of my belief hinges upon a direct request of your intervention. I'm asking you to pray for God to contact me. And yet, you refuse, again and again. If prayer works, then this should be a very easy task. All I see from you, thus far, are excuses as to why you will not.

You do not know me. Maybe I would embrace Him wholeheartedly after such a catalyst. You do not know. All you know is that I ask you to pray for God's contact. If you continue to refuse, this speaks volumes. --> Which lends to the title of the OP yet further...

bling · Oct 28, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
So, when I say "it's possible the tooth fairy exists, Santa Claus exists and the Easter Bunny exists. Not likely. Ridiculously unlikely. But possible. And that's my stance with God and miracles as well," we need evidence that these things exist. Lacking such evidence, as we do with God, the only sensible response is to not believe in them.

The Christian God might be “ridiculously unlikely” to you, but not for me. The likelihood of the other things you mentioned are highly unlikely for both of us and insignificant, so why pursue evidence either way for them?

InterestedAtheist said:
This does not seem to answer, or even address, my question:
How do you love someone without believing they exist?

You do not, and I am not saying or suggesting anyone Love God without knowing in their heart, He exists. The first step to becoming a Christ does not require anything noble, righteous, worthy, holy or glorious. It requires a wimping out, giving up on self and surrendering to your enemy you are hating and still hate in surrendering. You do it for selfish reasons, but are just willing to accept undeserving charity from your enemy. The “Love” comes after God showers the undeserving surrenderer with unbelievable wonderful gifts which includes Godly type Love.

InterestedAtheist said:
I do not see anywhere where you already answered why God would hide Himself from us. You have yet to explain why He would do this, since He was quite happy to reveal Himself in very public ways before, and since many Christians believe that He is quite happy to reveal Himself now.

This goes back to those questions you did not answer, yourself.

Unquestionable knowledge of the Christian God of the Bible existing (reveals Himself to you) means you know heaven, hell, and judgement exists. Judgement and hell are like putting a gun to your head, so how do you make a free will choice with likely alternatives?

God being hidden and uncertain to the nonbelieving sinner, allows that sinner to choose between: continuing to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin or believe in a benevolent Creator’s Love to forgive them. Yes, if they believe in such a God, they are also believing in hell, but the believe in God saves them from hell. Knowledge is not believing, so knowledge of God does not save them from hell.

Yes, God in the past did reveal Himself publicly, but again that did not save those people, they had to trust Him over other “spiritual beings”, these “other” gods seemingly revealed themselves in the Sun, moon, stars, fire, water, mountains, crops and objects. Today, we have scientific explanations for this early thought to be miracles, so we do not naturally spiritualize all these before unknowns. God did many miracles for the Jews prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, which they would expect from the true God follower. The Jews did not have an issue with believing in God, but in accepting Christianity over Judaism. They felt just being a Jew protected them from judgement and meant they were heaven bound.

InterestedAtheist said:
You said that it is not coincidence that God always "reveals" Himself through by answering prayers for things that might happen anyway. But if the only prayers that are ever "answered" are for things that might have happened by sheer chance anyway, maybe it was just sheer chance. I can see no reason to think that it wasn't.
Again: if God is real, as you claim, and if God answers prayers for healing, as you claim He does, then we should see statistical evidence of this. Christians have an edge on probability. The prayers of non-Christians will not be answered, if they even make such prayers.
Look at it like this:
Imagine we could collate the data of people recovering from sicknesses. Assume a population of one million atheists, one million Christians and one million believers of a different, false religion.
The atheists will not be praying. Therefore, their recovery rates will be strictly natural.
The believers of a false religion will be praying, but their prayers will be ineffective since they are praying to the wrong God. Therefore, their recovery rates will be strictly natural.
The Christians will be praying. Some of their prayers will not be answered by God but, as you your self have claimed, some of them will be. Therefore, their recovery rates will be unexpectedly higher, due to the fraction of prayers that God chooses to answer.
If your claim is true, this is the kind of thing we should be seeing. But we don't. Therefore, your claim that God answers some prayers for healing is demonstrably false.

Nothing is by “chance” or “natural”, since God or humans either allows or causes these things.

You are assuming randomness or things just “naturally” happening and leaving God out of it. God does not make our choices for us, but everything else is controlled.

Again, trying to use the science of statistics to proof the Christian God must exist, will not work, since the nonbeliever must believe.

Healing itself does not convert people.

Just as much and most likely more people can see God (Love) through true Christians serving those who are ill. That unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial Love is God Himself, being revealed through true Christians serving others. The Christian’s pray is to know how best to serve others, to have what is needed to cease the opportunities, to strengthen their own faith, to allow the Spirit to work through them and to Love others even more.

InterestedAtheist said:
You are committing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Why should I believe that these Christians are not "true" Christians, when they state they are and tell me that it is you who are mistaken?

You are asking me to defend someone I do not agree with, which I cannot do. We are communicating and if I was communicating with them, I would have lots of questions of them.

InterestedAtheist said:
Well, you've said it yourself. Hell benefits the new Christian by making them realise how bad sin is. Sin is a terrifying punishment, and many Christians have, and continue to, make the case that we should turn to God for fear of it. This seems perfectly rational to me, if you accept their premise that God, heaven and hell exist. And, as I have said before, there is a well-used Christian argument that fear of sin leads to love of a God who would save us from it.

Sin is not the punishment?

Someone has to first believe God (Love) exists, to fear hell. God made Hell. If you believe God exists then you are heaven bound, so hell is not something to fear.

To realize what a big deal sin really is, does require a huge punishment for sin, but that is to help the Christian realize how huge God’s love is, which forgave them of this unbelievable huge debt of sin. The reason some people calling themselves “Christians” fear hell, is because they do not feel God could or has forgiven them of their sins, which is truly tragic. They also are either quenching the indwelling holy Spirit or do not have the Spirit.

The nonbeliever can be told about hell to realize his/her sins are a huge deal to God, but it is not going to impact them until they believe God and everything else might exist. They might swiftly want to have a believe in God to avoid the possibility of hell, but it is all still about faith/believe/trust and not knowledge.

NerdGirl · Oct 29, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Interesting, what you see if you observe Christians praying.
They pray for things which, really, might happen anyway, if they get lucky.

They pray for a friend to be healed. Well, people do recover from illnesses all the time. But you never see Christians praying for a person's leg to grow back.
Is it because they know God wouldn't do this (even though - if He exists - He certainly has the power to)?

Christians pray for people who have suffered a bereavement to find peace. Well, of course, people usually do get over their feelings of grief, sooner or later. But they hardly ever pray for a person to be brought back to life.
Christians claim that God is quite capable of bringing people back to life.
Do they not ask Him to because they know that God doesn't actually answer prayers for impossible things?

Christians pray for people suffering cancer to have the strength to face their ordeal. Maybe they even pray for the cancer to vanish. But they never pray for all cancer all over the world to vanish and never return. I wonder why?
Maybe they know that, no matter how hard they pray, that just isn't going to happen.

Um. Do Christians actually secretly know that God isn't real?
They certainly don't seem to act like He's real.

Very confusing.

Some Christians absolutely do pray for things similar to what you mention.

However, part of being a Christian is placing ourselves in submission to God and His will. The world is a fallen, sinful place. Sin and its consequences (death, illness, struggles) will not disappear entirely until Christ returns and the earth is made new again. What you're talking about here - the absence of suffering - is coming. It's just not here yet.

In meantime, God uses difficult situations - both of our own making, and those that befall us through no fault of our own - to teach us lessons and to draw us closer to Him. As Oswald Chambers said, "God is more interested in your character than your comfort. God is more interested in making your life holy than He is in making your life happy.”

cvanwey · Oct 29, 2020

NerdGirl123 said:
Some Christians absolutely do pray for things similar to what you mention.

However, part of being a Christian is placing ourselves in submission to God and His will. The world is a fallen, sinful place. Sin and its consequences (death, illness, struggles) will not disappear entirely until Christ returns and the earth is made new again. What you're talking about here - the absence of suffering - is coming. It's just not here yet.

In meantime, God uses difficult situations - both of our own making, and those that befall us through no fault of our own - to teach us lessons and to draw us closer to Him. As Oswald Chambers said, "God is more interested in your character than your comfort. God is more interested in making your life holy than He is in making your life happy.”

Taking note upon everything you stated above, you still have to ask yourself....

If God does sometimes answer the call to prayers in healing, don't you find it a little peculiar that He skips diseases and conditions humans cannot ever cure upon their own, in some way?

...And further, does seem to intervene quite often, or so it is asserted that He does, with diseases and conditions for which humans can address/resolve upon their own?

NerdGirl · Oct 29, 2020

cvanwey said:
Taking note upon everything you stated above, you still have to ask yourself....

If God does sometimes answer the call to prayers in healing, don't you find it a little peculiar that He skips diseases and conditions humans cannot ever cure upon their own, in some way?

...And further, does seem to intervene quite often, or so it is asserted that He does, with diseases and conditions for which humans can address/resolve upon their own?

I don't find it peculiar. I may not understand why He chooses to heal this person, and not that person, but I either trust Him and take Him at His word, or I don't. Remember that Christians operate with a mindset that is beyond this world, beyond the here and now, and beyond what we can see. We believe there are greater things at work in the spiritual realm, both now, and after we die. That gives us a perspective that doesn't so much focus on the current moment that we're living in, and it can help us endure suffering (either our own, or another person's), because we have the reassurance that this moment, this world, this body, etc, is not all that there is.

I had a friend who was cured of cancer. Completely cured. He went from a terminal diagnosis, with multiple tumors growing through his body, including one on his heart, to the doctors being unable to find any trace of cancer in him. Overnight. True story.

I don't expect or demand such miraculous things to happen every time I blink. God isn't a genie or a vending machine. He doesn't work according to our whims, but according to His master plan, which is far and away beyond anything we can fathom with our tiny, finite minds.

I don't see miraculous curing of colds or coughs, anymore than I see miraculous curing of anything else. So, no, I don't agree on your latter point.

cvanwey · Oct 29, 2020

NerdGirl123 said:
I don't find it peculiar. I may not understand why He chooses to heal this person, and not that person, but I either trust Him and take Him at His word, or I don't.

It's a little more than just that... God looks to completely exclude prayer requests to intervene in diseases and conditions for which humans cannot somehow resolve on their own. For example: amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome, just for starters...

NerdGirl123 said:
Remember that Christians operate with a mindset that is beyond this world, beyond the here and now, and beyond what we can see.

With such a mindset, seems as though it's quite possible for the Christian to then look at this world as nothing more than a place to wipe your feet, in anxious anticipation of the next - (which would be the one that really counts).

Furthermore, if you operate in such a mindset, why ever pray at all? If God's will is God's will, nothing you will pray for, will ever happen, unless He is already going to will such an outcome anyhow. Hence, rendering prayer worthless....

NerdGirl123 said:
We believe there are greater things at work in the spiritual realm, both now, and after we die. That gives us a perspective that doesn't so much focus on the current moment that we're living in, and it can help us endure suffering (either our own, or another person's), because we have the reassurance that this moment, this world, this body, etc, is not all that there is.

In other words, when life hands you 'lemons', you think to yourself... "welp, God must have a plan for me, and things will surely be better after I die." Sounds like a nice unfalsifiable train of thought

NerdGirl123 said:
I had a friend who was cured of cancer. Completely cured. He went from a terminal diagnosis, with multiple tumors growing through his body, including one on his heart, to the doctors being unable to find any trace of cancer in him. Overnight. True story.

I'm glad to hear your friend recovered.

However, we have countless cancer patients whom go into remission, or are later deemed free of cancer. This is not a miracle.

May I ask you...? Did this individual receive any cancer treatment at all, or did they merely rely upon prayers alone to heal?

And further, this goes right back to my previous response. (Paraphrased)...

God has no problem aiding in the cure for diseases and conditions for which humans can address, by some other means. But when it comes to conditions, for which we humans deem 'incurable', God seems to stay away, 100% of the time, as well?

NerdGirl123 said:
I don't expect or demand such miraculous things to happen every time I blink. God isn't a genie or a vending machine. He doesn't work according to our whims, but according to His master plan, which is far and away beyond anything we can fathom with our tiny, finite minds.

His master plan, apparently, is to come to the aid, many times, for cancer. But 100% of the time, ignore similar prayer requests of amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs. I find this odd... You don't?

This brings up a follow up question...

If all these cured cancer patients were to never have prayed, do you think they still would be cured?

bling · Oct 29, 2020

cvanwey said:
Where does it say "the benefit the healing will have for all people and the Kingdom." ?

What the Bible does say is: Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23

cvanwey said:
Which implies God answers the prayers of earnest requests, with no such caveats attached. Which would mean if God answers the call to prayers in healing, it does not look to EXCLUDE requests to heal diseases and conditions for which humans cannot resolve upon their own

Matt. 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matt. 21: 21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Mark 11: 22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly[f] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” [26]

John14: 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 16: 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

First off: all these verses are in the context of Jesus talking to His disciples (and really the apostles).

I have seen “mountains moved”, but not literal hunks of dirt.

Mark 16: 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Luke 21: 10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. 12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.

John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him. …many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.

Jesus said discouragingly: John 4: 48 “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”

Ro. 8: 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Everything that happens or does not happen is for the Christian’s good.

It is unfortunate but the tragedies a Christian goes through in this short life helps them.

Hebrews 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

2 Corinthians 12:10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

cvanwey said:

We already touched upon this many posts ago Belief is not a choice. I'm straight up telling you, that without some sort of "Damascus road experience", I do not believe or have knowledge of His existence. If God is all knowing, He would know this...

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

God, apparently, also proclaims that belief is a requirement. Well, He would know I do not currently believe. And further still, He would also be aware that I'm now asking you to pray to have Him contact me. And the fact that you will not, continues to look quite peculiar. ----> It goes right back to the OP... (paraphrased)... "Why don't Christians ever pray for things for which they know will not happen?"

Click to expand...

Christians, who actively have the indwelling Holy Spirit, know why it will not happen and know why it would not be good to ask for it to happen, since it hurts the nonbeliever at this time.

cvanwey said:

I did not state 'assertion', I stated assumptions. Using Occam's razor, which of the two is more likely? Which of the two harbor more assumption?

a. God does not exist. The people which assert He does, are merely 'connecting the dots' or 'accepting the hits and ignoring the misses'.

b. God does exist. He apparently answers prayer requests to heal. He also tells His readers He will address your prayers when asked. However, He chooses to perpetually exclude requests which humans cannot address without prayer. Further, He additionally apparently relies upon humans to rationalize, on their own, why this is the case.

Click to expand...

It is not irrational to know God does that which is absolutely the best for all involved.

cvanwey said:

You almost fully acknowledged the simple conclusion, and started to agree, but then went off tangent???

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

If one does not believe something exists, it's kind of hard to love such a suspected non-existent Being. You must first believe before love could ever be possible. If belief never comes, then neither will love follow.

Click to expand...

Knowledge and believe are not the same thing

cvanwey said:

All this would demonstrate is that beliefs can alter your actions. An atheist whom later becomes a Muslim, Mormon, Catholic, Scientologist, Buddhist, or other would likely change in some 'profound/good/positive' way.

Please remember what you stated

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

"I know of no one being changed for the good by believing in Zeus and I know lots of people changed for the good by believing in Jesus."

Many will change for the 'good' after proscribing to some religious doctrine. But this has no bearing on whether or not such truth claims are actually true

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

Please answer the question you skipped:

Click to expand...

cvanwey said:

How do you know you have 'God’s Spirit dwelling within' you?

Click to expand...

I realize the difference before and after I allowed the Spirit to be unquenched in me. Even now when I quench the Spirit and do go out on my own, I get in trouble. If I allow the Spirit freedom within me good stuff happens for me and others.

cvanwey said:

I'm not 'blaming.' I'm asking a simple question. You made no attempt in answering...

If God "loves" everyone, what be the point in allowing the suffering, torture, and death of young children, prior to the age of theodicy?

Click to expand...

These are all excellent opportunities for Christians to show, experience, give, receive, and grow Godly type Love (which is the Christian objective). Showing this Love is showing God Himself for God is Love.

cvanwey said:

Please give me an example of healing taking place, which you know was God-guided?

Click to expand...

There was a couple in our life group that remained childless to allow the wife to get out from under the threat of deportation. They really then wanted a child, so we all prayed for them to have a child. Many months later she was told she had gone through menopause, so she could not conceive. I quit praying for a child and just concentrated on praying for them to be able to handle the disappointment. Three months later she was pregnant, but not by my prays.

cvanwey said:

False:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

If you have lack in belief, you surely cannot have knowledge of His existence now can you...

Click to expand...

I agree but knowledge of the Christian God is not believing in the Christian God, you need to believe.

cvanwey said:

The beginning of my belief hinges upon a direct request of your intervention. I'm asking you to pray for God to contact me. And yet, you refuse, again and again. If prayer works, then this should be a very easy task. All I see from you, thus far, are excuses as to why you will not.

You do not know me. Maybe I would embrace Him wholeheartedly after such a catalyst. You do not know. All you know is that I ask you to pray for God's contact. If you continue to refuse, this speaks volumes. --> Which lends to the title of the OP yet further...

Click to expand...

You said: judgement and hell are scary and frightening. Knowledge of the Christian God of the Bible includes knowledge of the Judgement, hell and heaven. Believe in the Christian God of the Bible protects you from going to hell, so you first need to believe. Believe is a choice, since you can go on not believing, with or without knowledge, but going on not believing with knowledge is extremely frightening, like knowing there is a gun to your head.

I will say I comment you getting back with me quickly and it reminds me of my Chinese students, but they have a real hunger for the truth, so is that your reason?

NerdGirl · Oct 29, 2020

cvanwey said:
It's a little more than just that... God looks to completely exclude prayer requests to intervene in diseases and conditions for which humans cannot somehow resolve on their own. For example: amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome, just for starters...

Most people have some kind of health condition, at some point in their life, and certainly more likely as we get older. Many cannot be cured. Some of them are more challenging than others. A life free of all physical ailments doesn't mean you have a happy life. Conversely, a life with a physical ailment doesn't mean you don't have a happy life. My aunt is elderly and has had cerebral palsy all of her life. She's the sweetest, most upbeat, child-like, bubbly person I know.

With such a mindset, seems as though it's quite possible for the Christian to then look at this world as nothing more than a place to wipe your feet, in anxious anticipation of the next - (which would be the one that really counts).

No, that's not how I see this world. The world is still full of beauty, love, hope, joy, and possibility. We just don't stake all our claims here, because the world is tainted, and temporary.

Furthermore, if you operate in such a mindset, why ever pray at all? If God's will is God's will, nothing you will pray for, will ever happen, unless He is already going to will such an outcome anyhow. Hence, rendering prayer worthless....

That's like saying, "My father sometimes gives me really awesome gifts that I don't expect. But since I never know when he might surprise me with something unexpected, why bother talking to him or having a relationship with him at all?"

Prayer isn't just asking for things. It's a conversation, a communion, and a way to enjoy intimacy with our Father. Prayer is a powerful tool, and even if we aren't getting everything we ask for, it allows us a chance to submit our will to His, and deepen our trust in Him.

In other words, when life hands you 'lemons', you think to yourself...

"welp, God must have a plan for me, and things will surely be better after I die." Sounds like a nice unfalsifiable train of thought

Sometimes, yes. Look for the lessons to be learned. Look for the opportunities to trust and rely on God more deeply than before. Suffering also is a seriously potent "reset" button for gratitude. I've had many serious health problems over the years. And I notice that I am never more grateful and aware of the tiny blessings; being able to breathe, being able to eat, being able to go to work or shop or simply take a walk outside... as when I'm ill. So when I'm healthy and I find myself slipping into feeling whiny about things, I stop and think. Like today. It's raining and dreary and nasty outside. I hate this weather. It's been raining for five days straight. I could walk around scowling and going, "I HATE this weather!" or I could stop and think how grateful I am to be able to see the rain, to hear the rain, to walk in the rain, to fuss over getting wet on my way to work and on my way home.

May I ask you...? Did this individual receive any cancer treatment at all, or did they merely rely upon prayers alone to heal?

He had been undergoing treatment, but they had stopped it because his condition was progressing so rapidly, and there was nothing more they could do for him. They had given him only a few more months to live.

His master plan, apparently, is to come to the aid, many times, for cancer. But 100% of the time, ignore similar prayer requests of amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs. I find this odd... You don't?

Curious, maybe. Not odd. Things like being an amputee or having Downs Syndrome aren't at all similar to having a terminal illness like cancer. Amputees and people with Downs can live long, happy, relatively normal lives (depending on their individual situations, of course).

This brings up a follow up question...

If all these cured cancer patients were to never have prayed, do you think they still would be cured?

I can't speak for whoever you're referring to. I know that my friend was healed during prayer.

Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

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