Calvinist limited love for mankind

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
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How did you learn this word? Did not somebody write it down in a dictionary somewhere for you to understand it? See, you cannot use the dictionary and then imply at another point it is entirely unreliable.
I sure can when it comes to the KJV, its outdated. The Greek and Hebrew lexicons are not. They are the original word of God, not any English translation. The original scriptures were written in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek, not English. Those are the inspired word of God, without error. The original documents. This is basic bible 101 with hermenuetics.

hope this helps !!!
 
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You see I meant what it did in the day of the KJV was written not what it means today and look how quick you were to judge me. My point actually opposes your view since words today have changed their meaning over time.

You are not quoting from the 1600's English, and or from the KJB that has that word in how it was used back then. You are talking in your own words and nobody today uses that word. You know what that word means so it is not a challenge for you to understand it. You looked up that word in a dictionary but you did not have to look up ALL the words when reading the KJB.

Many have attacked the KJB and said bad things against it and claim it is that way because of the king. You intentionally used a word (with no clarification) in order to lead me to believe something that was not true. So if your intention was not to insult the Word of God, then why lead me to believe that? Did you really think that I was going to think that you were talking about a happy translation? 100% of the people today would take it the same way that I did. Not one person on the planet would read your statement and go, “Oh, he is talking about a happy translation.” (Especially when we know there are people out there who like to attack King James and say he is a gay king, etc.).

Your point is moot. The Lord Himself spoke in parables. Proverbs 25:2 says, “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” You also were not quoting from the 1600's English whereby I would have recognized the use of that word. You were not speaking in the Early Modern English so as to give me a clue. You were speaking in your own Modern tongue. You threw in a 1600's English word subtly into your modern English conversation and you just think I was going to get it? See, when I read the KJB, I know it is 1600's Engish. I don't know when you are speaking 1600's English unless you tell me. Thus, you led me to believe something false. That was really low of you to do that. None the less it appeared like an attack upon God's Word to me. You led me to believe that my God's Holy Word is being attacked. My faith in Christ rests on His Holy Word and you just led me to believe you were attacking it when you really were not. I don't think that is right, dear sir.
 
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I sure can when it comes to the KJV, its outdated. The Greek and Hebrew lexicons are not. They are the original word of God, not any English translation. The original scriptures were written in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek, not English. Those are the inspired word of God, without error. The original documents. This is basic bible 101 with hermenuetics.

hope this helps !!!

The originals are no longer in existence. All we have a our copies. Do you believe these copies are perfect? If so, which Hebrew and Greek texts do you use? The Textus Receptus? The Greek text used by Westcott and Hort who are known occultists and who helped to forumulate the Modern Translation movement? There are others, as well. How do you decide?
 
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And I will end with that as I'm not in the least interested in the KJV only discussion or numerology. The "hidden" meaning in the bible only a few "elite" understand.

The Bible tells us to count as a part of wisdom.

“Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” (Revelation 13:18).

Is it not ironic that the 666th chapter of the Bible (Ecclesiastes 7) just so happens to talk about counting and wisdom, too?

“I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things...” (Ecclesiastes 7:25).

“Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:” (Ecclesiastes 7:27).​

But go ahead and ignore such truths in Scripture if you like. They are simply facts of the Bible. It has nothing to do with being a part of any elite group. A child can understand biblical numerics just fine.
 
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Numbers mean something in the Bible. Take for example the cross.

1. There are 3 crosses.
2. Three languages transcribed on a sign saying Jesus was king of the Jews (i.e. Hebrew, Greek, and Latin).
3. Three nails pierced Jesus.
4. Three ending points of the cross that are open ended.
5. Jesus was nailed to the cross at the third hour (9:00am).
6. Jesus died at the ninth hour (3:00PM).
7. There was three hours of darkness took place while Jesus was on the cross.
8. The death of Jesus began the New Testament and there are 27 books in the New Testament
(3 x 3 x 3 = 27).
9. Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
10. Jesus said three last words, “it is finished” before dying.
11. God is one and yet He is also three persons (Jesus is a part of the triune Godhead or Trinity).
12. It is reported that Jesus was 33 years old when He died upon the cross.​

Surely all these things are not a coincidence and they don't just mean nothing.
God is surely trying to tell us something here.
 
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Mark Quayle

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My guess is that you never really thought about what is happening in 1 John 5. Why are the brethren praying for the brother who is committing the sin that does not lead unto death? What is to be gained?
Some say this is the sin that leads to physical death. Most in your camp take this view. But how does that really work here in this scenario mentioned in Scripture? How would the brethren know it was a sin unto death if that sin was going to lead to their own death? Do you see this happening today in your church? Most likely not. Does John mention anything about this physical death caused by sin his epistle? Or does John talk consistently about spiritual death vs. spiritual life in his epistle? Just a few chapter back, he says that whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).

In the beginning of 1 John 5, it says,

2 “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:2-4).​

Problem. You again, cannot believe this passage above in what it plainly says. You believe that believers cannot overcome this world and or keep His commandments. Your camp continually says that no believer can stop sinning this side of heaven. So why does John talk about keeping his commandments if you and your camp say that folks cannot keep His commandments? I trust the apostle John more than trust what popular Christianity today says.
Apparently we are talking past each other again. I was referring to Acts 21, and here you are talking 1 John 5
 
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Mark Quayle

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You said, I quote:

“Then you don't know the Greek. Remember Greek tenses do not translate well into English. The tense of the phrase in 1 Jn 1:9 commonly translated "will forgive" is translated so, to denote the contingency on confession, not to show whether it already has happened or will happen afterwards. The Greek tense for "will forgive

Here's a paraphrase:"If we admit the fact of our sins, then by his faithfulness his pardon and cleansing applies to us. If we deny we've sinned, we call him a liar and his word is not in us."
What the KJB says on 1 John 1:9 is entirely different than what you are saying here on 1 John 1:9. You said in post #222 that 1 John 1:9 is saying that we are already forgiven. But 1 John 1:9 does not say that. You are saying that based on books to learn a dead language that helped you to undo what the Word says plainly in the KJB. I mean, there are KJB believers who know the Greek, and who are against OSAS, and they would not agree with your slant on a dead language you are only guessing about (and placing your faith in what some scholar says). I place my faith directly in God's Word. I do not need a filter or code key to understand His Word. I just read it, and believe it plainly. You cannot do that.
"God's Word", being only KJB, and not even the originals apparently. No, we don't have the originals, but we have something much closer than the KJB is. Sorry, BH, your hermeneutics is off.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If one teaches that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved, then it's a teaching that one can turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” (Jude 1:4) (NIV).

1 “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.” (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

For the moment one breaks the rules a little to justify sin, they are breaking all kinds of His laws and thinking they are saved. They are not living holy. They are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God. For they are not willing to fight and battle to overcome mortal or grievous sin in their life. Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1).
Your quotes are good, being from the Bible, but your premise is off. The apparent, humanly derived judgement of efficacy or dangers of a belief is no gauge of the truth of the belief. The fact that people can have bad doctrine that produces bad behavior and condemnable practices doesn't mean that any belief people use wrong is a wrong belief. I could "prove" that Arminianism is dead wrong through that logic alone, since Arminianism opens people to the notion that the efficacy of the Gospel and what Christ has done depends primarily on them.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Here is just a sampling of the truth that you have to ignore.

The Amazing Bible Number 46.

As many of you may be aware of: In the realm of medical science, we know that there are 46 chromosomes in the human body.

full


full


We know according to Scripture that under the New Covenant, our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit.

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16).​

1 Corinthians 6:19 also confirms this truth, as well. What is interesting is that 1 Corinthians is the 46th book of the Protestant Bible.

Behold the scene in John 2:


[Jesus said]

“Destroy this temple,
and in three days I will raise it up.”

The Jews
then said,

“It took forty-six years to build this temple,
and will You raise it up in three days?”

But He was speaking of the temple of His body. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

(John 2:19-22).

Not sure if you caught it or not, but the Jews said that it took them 46 YEARS to build the temple. The Jews were confused and they thought Jesus was going to tear down the literal temple of worship, but Jesus was referring to His body. The body that has 46 chromosomes within it.

In 1 Kings 7:15-16, we learn that the two large bronze pillars which stood at the entryway of Solomon's temple. The shaft of the columns (structural) measured 18 cubits in height, with a capital (Structural top piece) measuring 5 cubits in height; this gives us a total height of 23 cubits. This parallels the pairs (two) of 23 chromosomes in each nucleus of the cell of our bodies. We see in a DNA molecule what looks like a twisted ladder. Two sides to that ladder, and 23 rungs or chromosomes. (Note: There was a flower or fruit like piece mentioned to be at the top of this; But this was merely the adorning feature of the structure). There is even a spiral staircase mentioned in Solomon's temple, and this reflects the spiral nature of the DNA ladder.

The word “the body” is found 69 (23 x 3) times in the Bible.

(Important Side Note: While I do use BlueLetterBible for quick keyword searches, it does not always give you the final accurate count number; Check out King James Pure Bible Search, which is available as a software (PC/MAC/Linux), a mobile app, and or as an online search).​

Anyways, we read in 1 Corinthians 10 the following,
"The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 10:16).

The word “The bread” occurs 46 times in 46 verses of the Bible.

The phrase “temple of” (think about an empty temple or vessel) is found 46 times in the Bible. The phrase “the temple” is found in 23 books of the Bible.

The phrase “the word of God” occurs 46 times in the Bible.

The Word of God was made flesh.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1).

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14).

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." (Revelation 19:11).

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." (Revelation 19:13).
In Genesis 2:23-24 Adam speaks exactly 46 words:

“And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”​

conceived” 46 times in the Bible
multiply” 46 times in the Bible.
the flesh” 46 times in the NT
the seed” found in 46 verses of the OT

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” (Romans 9:21).

vessel” 46 times in the Bible
the vessels” 46 chapters of the Bible.

In Luke chapter 2, we see this in verse 46.

"And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions." (Luke 2:46).​

While the text is referring primarily to the physical temple here, the secondary spiritual meaning should not be missed.

"...They found him in the temple, ...." (Luke 2:46).​

They found the him [The Living Word of God] in the temple (in His physical body or flesh) (i.e. For the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us - John 1:14).

What is also interesting is that the Bible mentions the words "the doctors" found him [Jesus].

"...the doctors...." (Luke 2:46).​

While these were Doctors of what we would call today as: "Doctors of Theology," a secondary metaphorical meaning implies that they were like medical doctors. For a medical doctor's job is to examine the body and to see if everything is working normally and or to treat the sick or injured; And these men were examining the Word made flesh (John 1:14). These men were examining the Word made flesh and his words (Which were also called, "the Word of God.").

Luke who wrote this gospel was a physician, as well. How fitting for the text by which we hold so dear today in our hands and or cherish on our mobile devices (or computer).

What an amazing number we find in our Bible:

The Amazing Bible Number 46.

This number is not a guide to rule our life by like in false numerology, but it is simply a number that speaks to how special God's Word is, and makes us appreciate His Word as being divine and amazing.

I hope that what I said here helps.

Blessings be unto you in the Lord today (even if we do not agree on the most important things of the faith).
I have no doubt there are huge puns, plays on words, and facts that tie other facts together in Scripture and life, and I look forward to leaning about them. I will no doubt be amazed. But this you speak of means nothing of itself. Charlatans have been using this kind of thing to fool people for centuries. They are not independent proof of any truth.
 
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renniks

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Calvinist emphasis on God's predestination that sometime make me feel that these Christian defined love in their own way. Can they go around and say to people "Jesus love you"? I'm not a calvinist, I won't say the Father damned those who God didn't predetermined to be saved, I affirm Jesus died for all and desire all to be saved, those who rejected the gospel go to hell. So by my conscience I can Jesus love the sinners. But for Calvinist they would say God hate sin and the sinners. So what is love to calvinist? Does God love only the elect? So God's love is limited in that sense?
They can say God loves you. They just can't say it and be consistent with their theology...
 
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Mark Quayle

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My reply was that God commanding people to do things they’re incapable of doing would be an absurdity, and punishing people for not being able to do things which you have rendered them incapable of doing would be another absurdity.
The status quo is the fallen nature of the unredeemed --ALL of them.

Look at it another way. I don't like human examples, but I don't know how else to point out the way it is. If one has the password, he can access the files, if he does not, he cannot. The offer is given to all. Again, if a person shows up for the wedding supper but is not dressed, he is thrown out. John 3:18 says they are ALREADY condemned.

They are not punished for not being able to obey. They are punished for their sin, for their enmity against God. The Elect are no different, except that God had mercy on them and Christ paid for their sin and the Holy Spirit regenerated them. The fact he did not do that for the ultimately lost is not held against them. THEIR SIN is held against them.

This reminds me of the Bible story of the landowner who agrees with workers to a certain sum to harvest his crops. When the day is partly gone he realizes he must hire more, and to entice them he agrees to pay them the same amount as those who worked all day. Later on he sees the job still won't be done, and so he finds more workers and at the end of the day he pays them the same amount as the others. As you might expect, those who had worked all day complained, but the owner says, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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The status quo is the fallen nature of the unredeemed --ALL of them.

Look at it another way. I don't like human examples, but I don't know how else to point out the way it is. If one has the password, he can access the files, if he does not, he cannot. The offer is given to all. Again, if a person shows up for the wedding supper but is not dressed, he is thrown out. John 3:18 says they are ALREADY condemned.

They are not punished for not being able to obey. They are punished for their sin, for their enmity against God. The Elect are no different, except that God had mercy on them and Christ paid for their sin and the Holy Spirit regenerated them. The fact he did not do that for the ultimately lost is not held against them. THEIR SIN is held against them.

This reminds me of the Bible story of the landowner who agrees with workers to a certain sum to harvest his crops. When the day is partly gone he realizes he must hire more, and to entice them he agrees to pay them the same amount as those who worked all day. Later on he sees the job still won't be done, and so he finds more workers and at the end of the day he pays them the same amount as the others. As you might expect, those who had worked all day complained, but the owner says, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
but we are saved through faith. God is love :D
 
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Mark Quayle

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They can say God loves you. They just can't say it and be consistent with their theology...
Sure they can. Do you believe God's love to be the same to everyone? Does he not have particular love for those he redeems? Are the non-elect given the mercy of God's grace for salvation? But have the non-elect not been given this temporal life, and a mind to reason, provision for living, enjoyment?

Does God's love for a person mean God will do only what that person considers good? Or does it mean perhaps, something more along the lines of intimate attention to the work of his hand?

We really don't know. We aren't God. And he doesn't operate by your standards or opinions.

We can know love by knowing God, not by judging God. God does not love as a result of the fact that love is good. Love is what it is, because God is love. It is defined by God, not by our notions.
 
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Cormack

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There’s so much that’s being ignored in my posts that I think it’s important to distill a large part of the topic for the sake of clarity.

My entire previous reply only really contains 2 arguments and 2 pointed questions, there’s a lot of other ideas in between to do with the natural ability of man and deterministic absurdities but these two things are the major points, the post argues for (1) a well meant offer of the gospel and (2) the insecurity of believers if 5 point Calvinism and the false hope were correct.

Each of the four points has been ignored. If those points are incontrovertible, then Calvinism is an unliveable philosophy for the Christian. No Christian can live unaware as to their own salvation or without a firm confidence in the fulfilment to the good promises of God. Are they incontrovertible?
 
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Cormack

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The offer is given to all.

Which would be a sham offer, since the sacrifice isn’t made for all according to the 5 point Calvinist.

They are not punished for not being able to obey. They are punished for their sin, for their enmity against God.

Well, if we want to be technical, they’re being punished not for their enmity towards God but on account of Gods enmity towards them.

Their own feelings of enmity weren’t a twinkle in their grandfathers eye before God had planned out their entire (unloved) kind.

Gods plan to withhold Jesus from them (their only possible saviour) was in operation long before they felt anything.

I don't like human examples,

You’re human, Mark. It’s okay. :tearsofjoy: Jesus used human analogies in the form of what we call parables constantly, so why Christians would often treat them with such distaste is beyond me.

But have the non-elect not been given this temporal life, and a mind to reason, provision for living, enjoyment?

I think the grim reality is that life isn’t all champagne and chocolate strawberries for the majority of people out there. Paul compared the pain of this life to but a moment and a light affliction only because in light of eternity there’s so much goodness. An eternity of good can easily outpace a lifetimes worth of affliction.

An eternity of torment in the unquenchable fires of hell added to a lifetime of HIV, dysentery and famine in the life of an African man doesn’t ring true regarding a life to be “enjoyed” by God.

We could go the other way and exhaust the logically possibilities. Give that African man a cure for HIV and AIDS, cure his every ill and feed him with the finest foods. Preserve him for 100 years in luxury, driving the best sports cars and loving the most beautiful women. Then send him to hell for an eternity of shame, pain, torment and loneliness.

An eternity of bad will crush and erase any amount of temporal good. Any temporal love (if we withhold eternal love and provide eternal punishment) will become hate.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Sure they can. Do you believe God's love to be the same to everyone? Does he not have particular love for those he redeems? Are the non-elect given the mercy of God's grace for salvation? But have the non-elect not been given this temporal life, and a mind to reason, provision for living, enjoyment?

Does God's love for a person mean God will do only what that person considers good? Or does it mean perhaps, something more along the lines of intimate attention to the work of his hand?

We really don't know. We aren't God. And he doesn't operate by your standards or opinions.

We can know love by knowing God, not by judging God. God does not love as a result of the fact that love is good. Love is what it is, because God is love. It is defined by God, not by our notions.
You can know the love of God through Jesus. He's the savior of the whole world according to the apostles. Who's the elect is God's job not ours. Just preach Jesus died on the cross to restore and save this sinking world.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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There’s so much that’s being ignored in my posts that I think it’s important to distill a large part of the topic for the sake of clarity.

My entire previous reply only really contains 2 arguments and 2 pointed questions, there’s a lot of other ideas in between to do with the natural ability of man and deterministic absurdities but these two things are the major points, the post argues for (1) a well meant offer of the gospel and (2) the insecurity of believers if 5 point Calvinism and the false hope were correct.

Each of the four points has been ignored. If those points are incontrovertible, then Calvinism is an unliveable philosophy for the Christian. No Christian can live unaware as to their own salvation or without a firm confidence in the fulfilment to the good promises of God. Are they incontrovertible?
Why bring up other points when this thread is mainly about limited atonement?
 
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Why bring up other points when this thread is mainly about limited atonement?

It’s about limited love right? How Calvinism limits Gods love. That topic expresses itself through things like our assurance of salvation, the truthfulness of the gospel offer and limited atonement.
 
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