The nonsense of "faith produces works"

BibleBeliever1611

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I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works. We can do good works to earn rewards in heaven but none of that can ever be a payment for sin. Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.
 
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zippy2006

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I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon the face of the earth that doeth good and sinneth not.

"Faith does not produce perfection." True.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works.

"We are not saved through works." True.

They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works.

"Faith does not equal works." True.


"Faith does not produce works." False.
 
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Guojing

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I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon the face of the earth that doeth good and sinneth not.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works. We can do good works to earn rewards in heaven but none of that can ever be a payment for sin. Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.

If you use Hebrews 11, an example to clarify would be Noah

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

If Noah had faith in what God told him, that there will be a flood coming, but did not prepare the ark, his household and him would have drowned.

So to God, that was not faith. Faith for Noah required him to put in a work, to build an ark, before God would consider that as true faith.

Its only in this current dispensation of grace, that we have Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We are currently living in a period where, we show faith in God only by believing in Christ death for our sins and his resurrection. We don't need to do works to show faith.

That privilege did not exist in time past, faith requires a work to be produced, that is what James is trying to explain in James 2.
 
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Jeshu

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I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon the face of the earth that doeth good and sinneth not.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works. We can do good works to earn rewards in heaven but none of that can ever be a payment for sin. Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.

i believe that faith in God's grace produces love for God and love for God produces good works. If you love to do God's work then you are no longer doing work but something you love doing. Such a process in real life makes for enormous faith boosts.

So this is the question we need to ask ourselves; does your faith in God make you love God or does it leave you cold but suits you fine? Those who are not working in the Kingdom are working without hope. Love is in every way greater than faith. 1 Corinthians 13:13.

To love God and neighbour must be actively living in our heart before it is so. This is what faith in God's love can work in someone's heart. The greater the sin that has been forgiven, the more love for God is generated as a result, and the more acts of love for God and neighbour will be sown around by the person forgiven.

True love is the essence of God, so only loving true can acquire Him.

Peace.
 
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timothyu

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Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ.
It was. He did only the will of the Father and not of Himself and fulfilled the Gospel of the Kingdom as a result. Salvation, door opened to a new world for those who repent of the ways of a world man has made in our own image. Living according to the will of the Father and not man is works enough because we have faith in God's will over our own.
 
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HARK!

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Saying that faith must produce works makes it sound like faith is not enough. Especially to someone who is not a Christian.

How does this passage fit in with your understanding?

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.
 
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BibleBeliever1611

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You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

That's not the correct quote of God's word. The King James Bible says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

 
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HARK!

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Hark: He did the will of the Father and not of man

That's my understanding. That's what Yahshua did. We are to follow his example.

Here is what Paul said:

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
 
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HTacianas

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I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon the face of the earth that doeth good and sinneth not.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works. We can do good works to earn rewards in heaven but none of that can ever be a payment for sin. Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.

Firstly, you are misconstruing Ephesians 2:8-9 by overlooking Ephesians 2:1-7. The writer is speaking in past tense, as he says to the Ephesians you "were" dead in trespasses, but God saved you anyway. It was not a reward for anything they had done previously whether good or bad. That does not speak to them in the present or the future. That led to a misapplication of the teachings of Paul that was corrected by James. James used the same examples as Paul, though in present tense when he said:

Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

The controversy was also addressed by the writer of 2 Peter:

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures

And then goes on to warn:

2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
 
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If I hear God, and I believe God, then I have faith. But since I heard God, God told me to do something, and I have to obey. That obedience is a work. I cannot work enough to please God or justify myself before him. Christ took care of that on the cross. But the life I live to God will have work, and that work is motivated by faith.
 
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That's not the correct quote of God's word. The King James Bible says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

The KJV is not a literal version; but let's not split hairs; as this is not a forum for debate.

Our different translations both say the same thing in the end; so in the end they are in agreement. Wouldn't you agree?
 
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timothyu

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2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
The error of wickedness... the will of man.
 
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Soyeong

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I honestly think the idea that true faith somehow automatically produces works is complete nonsense. I believe that doing works is a result of your own free will and free choice. If you truly have faith, you will not become a robot that is automatically programmed to do everything right. That is sinless perfectionism and it's a false teaching. No-one is perfect, we are all sinners and we are still sinful even after salvation. The Bible says there is not a just man upon the face of the earth that doeth good and sinneth not.

The Bible teaches that we are saved through faith and not through works:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So if we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, that should prove that faith has absolutely nothing to do with works. They are two totally separate things. If we are saved through faith, but we are not saved through works, then the logical conclusion is that faith does not equal works. We can do good works to earn rewards in heaven but none of that can ever be a payment for sin. Salvation has to be 100% through Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth and the life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is an incomplete thought without verse 10 where we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works. It doesn't even make sense to think that salvation from not doing good works is something totally separate from doing good works. If I told you to do something that was for your own good, then by you choosing to do that you would be putting your faith in me to rightly guide you, but your actions would not be earning a wage from me, and that implies nothing about you needing to follow my advice perfectly.

There is a world of difference between saying that we don't need to do good works in order to earn our salvation and saying that we don't need to do good works because the desire to do good works can still be a necessary component of our salvation for a purpose other than earning it. Jesus is the way, the truth, and life, and what that looked like was a life lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way, truth, and life.
 
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klutedavid

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How does this fit in with that perspective?:

(CLV) Ja 2:26
For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead.
James is not contradicting what Paul stated below.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

For James is actually discussing the issue of a faith that is dead, i.e., a faith that has no works at all. James would not dare to say that we are not saved by the grace of God. Now read the following verse carefully.

James 2:18
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

See, James is really discussing a living, active type of faith.

Incidentally, Paul also mentions, 'works', and in the very same paragraph containing Ephesians 2:8, here read it yourself.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works..

We are saved by grace ultimately; but that grace is channeled through faith, and that faith is an active faith of course.

The real truth of how we are saved is always by grace.

Acts 20:24
But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.

Philippians 1:7
For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.
 
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