want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

Jesus is YHWH

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You can learn all the road rules, study the car manual, read up on driving techniques, watch "how-to" videos and still not be able to drive a car. I know some people who have been going to church most of their lives. They are not born again. They know the theory but they've never truly accepted Christ. Hebrews 4: 1 & 2 describes such people. They know about Christ, but they do not know Him.
Amen just like judas
 
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Sadly, I would say probably not, if he had no intention at the time of repenting.
Whether someone is finally saved or not is ultimately dependent upon God. We can never put limits on his love and mercy.

I am glad you said that. The thing is that 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If he let someone slide in being forgiven even without confessing, then this verse would simply no longer be true anymore. Proverbs 28:13 essentially says that he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. I see this as salvation. This tells me that one has to be in a state of having their past sins confessed and forsaken in order to have mercy (salvation). So yes, God's love and mercy is very plentiful, but it is within the bounds of what His Word says.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Saved from what?

Until the moment of death the righteous and the unrighteous are living on the same earth, breathing the same air. God makes the same rain fall on both.

After that, there's no hope for the lost and no risk for the saved.
 
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Anthony2019

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I am glad you said that. The thing is that 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If he let someone slide in being forgiven even without confessing, then this verse would simply no longer be true anymore. Proverbs 28:13 essentially says that he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. I see this as salvation. This tells me that one has to be in a state of having their past sins confessed and forsaken in order to have mercy (salvation). So yes, God's love and mercy is very plentiful, but it is within the bounds of what His Word says.
Yes you are right in saying that repentance always precludes forgiveness and generally speaking those who commit grave sins without repentance will face judgement. However, addiction is a very complex illness and for many people recovery can take time and they may suffer relapses in the process. I personally believe that God would give grace to someone who is genuinely trying to turn their life around even if they falter and stumble in the process. It is those who sin wilfully and defiantly who have the problem.
 
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Mark Quayle

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For me, His ordination involves 1. ~causing~ something to happen or 2. ~allowing~ something to happen.
Hello back, Brother!

As has been pointed out, in one way or another all things are caused; when God knew if was going to happen if his plan was to succeed, and knew by omniscience it would come to pass, he created anyway, setting in place the chain of events. Some would say that then he is to blame for sin, but no, I say he only caused sin to happen, (by allowing, if you wish), but the sinner is the one who sins, and the devil is the father of sin.

BTW, I believe free will is best defined like this, as the ability to choose what we desire the most at a given moment in time. IOW, if we are able to choose what we want the most, then our will is free.

As for Heaven and/or our future life w/Him on the New Earth, I believe that we will be changed at that point so that we will be like Him .. in the sense that we will no longer have any desire to sin. So our wills will always be free, and we will never choose to sin again, because we will never have the desire to sin

Your definition of free will is a useful one, unlike the ones that depend on some degree of autonomy, where God does not cause. (How it makes any difference to them, in the chain of causality, wherein they may agree that relevant natural causes are the cause of their choices (through their desires, if you wish), or wherein God is the cause of those causes, I don't know. I haven't heard a good answer to that --in fact most don't even seem to understand the question, immediately going for "we are not robots!" or the like.)

I agree concerning Heaven, but to my mind we have free will (by your definition) even now --in fact, even the unsaved always decide to do what in that moment they desire. I'd would say, if one doesn't desire the choice they make, it isn't choice. When, for example, Jonah was finally convinced to go to Ninevah, God caused him to desire to do so, in conflict with his hatred for Ninevah. If a person holds a gun to your head, your desire for justice might overwhelm your desire to live, but whatever you are compelled to do, your desire at the moment of decision rules.

Perhaps more later, Brother. I certainly enjoy talking with you about what our Redeemer has done and the nature of his work.
 
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Rachel20

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Except you can't prove these weren't people with the same faith as yourself, and there is no indication whatsoever there that says they are any different from any saved person. What is described there can happen to anyone who chooses to do those things.

You simply choose to "say" there is a difference,, and right out of the blue.

Please tell me what makes them different?

Why would I want them to be of different faith? It would do nothing for my argument. I'm not claiming they don't start out with correct doctrine, but that they "fall away" from it. Paul gives the reason in 2 Timothy 4:3 -

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
 
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Kenny'sID

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Why would I want them to be of different faith? It would do nothing for my argument. I'm not claiming they don't start out with correct doctrine, but that they "fall away" from it. Paul gives the reason in 2 Timothy 4:3 -

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

You misunderstood, different faith as in the same faith but stronger or weaker.

Again, you and your faith is no different from those who fell away, anyone can and does fall away...It's simply a choice some make, and there is no magic thing that keeps them from dropping their salvation.
 
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Rachel20

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You missed my point, different faith as in the same faith but stronger or weaker

I don't see how that matters, maybe you can explain it. My point is they're not falling away from salvation, but from correct doctrine. It goes to sanctification, not justification.
 
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Kenny'sID

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I don't see how that matters, maybe you can explain it. My point is they're not falling away from salvation, but from correct doctrine. It goes to sanctification, not justification.

The scripture clearly says they fell away from their faith. I'll quote that for you then I'll have to leave it with you because its right there in scripture, it's very clear it was their faith they fell away from, but you say they fell away from something else. There is no sense in my arguing with such a mentality.

Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
 
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Mark Quayle

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I don't equate osas to any particular doctrine. Any Christian religion can incorporate osas, right? in my mind anyway. I didn't know why it was brought up in the Calvinist thread.
I agree --it is not particularly Calvinist. They despise the doctrines that teach the necessary fact of human dependence on Christ, without even knowing that is what they do.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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You misunderstood, different faith as in the same faith but stronger or weaker.

Again, you and your faith is no different from those who fell away, anyone can and does fall away...It's simply a choice some make, and there is no magic thing that keeps them from dropping their salvation.
one is a real living faith and the other as scripture says is a dead faith, HUGE difference between the two.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Yes you are right in saying that repentance always precludes forgiveness and generally speaking those who commit grave sins without repentance will face judgement. However, addiction is a very complex illness and for many people recovery can take time and they may suffer relapses in the process. I personally believe that God would give grace to someone who is genuinely trying to turn their life around even if they falter and stumble in the process. It is those who sin wilfully and defiantly who have the problem.

Yes, I agree that a believer can have mercy if they are truly intending to overcome. But if they die in their sins without confessing them, then they are not forgiven. This means that God knew their heart in how it was hard and they loved their sin more than Him. A believer is not saved at any moment while abiding in unconfessed mortal sin; This is true whether it be 5 seconds, or 5 hours, or 5 months. Only God's prescription for sin can deal with the problem. Only if we play by His rules can we have an any kind of escape.

Side Note:

The problem arises is when the moment a person thinks they are saved even while struggling with sin and they think can sin and still be saved as long as they have the intention to stop but they never really stop; They can just keep lying to themselves that they are saved while they are still doing the sin. 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13 makes the truth clear. This is why I believe a person who abides in unconfessed sin is not forgiven or saved. No ifs and or buts about it.
 
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Kenny'sID

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one is a real living faith and the other as scripture says is a dead faith, HUGE difference between the two.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus's parable said they believed....period, so of course we are talking real faith. Please don't try to change the clear meaning of scripture just to win an argument.
 
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Jesus's parable said they believed....period, so of course we are talking real faith. Please don't try to chance the clear meaning of scripture just to win an argument.

Indeed. I agree.

Jesus said:

“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13).
This ties in with what James said.

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).​

But today, Christians are saying you do not have to endure temptation, and you can receive the crown of life anyways. I am sticking with James and Jesus, and not what popular sugar coated Christianity says.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Indeed. I agree.

“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13).

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).​

But today, Christians are saying you do not have to endure temptation, and you can receive the crown of life anyways. I am sticking with James and Jesus, and not what popular sugar coated Christianity says.

I'm with you all the way.
 
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I'm with you all the way.

full


Thanks brother.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I don't recall that verse.

The only verse of that nature (assuredness) is in 1st John stating that because love is made perfect or mature in us, we have confidence on the day of Judgment because in this world we are like Him. God is looking at our spiritual maturity.

In terms of intellectual assuredness, we are instructed to Judge with Mercy in James' epistle.

If God is looking at our spiritual maturity, is that not characterized by (at least) obedience?

Faith without works is dead. James 2.

5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Corinthians 13

If you love me you will keep my commandments. John 14

And there are MANY more.




here is a good article on the question:
Obedience Confirms Our Standing in God

Another good read:
Obedience to Christ Gives Assurance of the Truth of His Doctrines
 
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1watchman

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Amen brother. I could not agree more.

But none of that changes the fact that Sacred Scripture does not teach OSAS.

Have a nice day.

Those who hold "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27) as shown in Scripture, know the value of what God shows us. We who are "born again" (John 3) and not just general believers about God, take God at His Word without various reasoning and mis-applying verses elsewhere. See what God says also at 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 4:30; etc. I do not think God will break His 'seal'. A true "born again" believer will bow to God's Word and know they HAVE eternal life. All others may believe what they wish.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Sure, but practically every denomination teaches election, those who accept OSAS and those who reject it.
I don't know that it is true that practically every denomination teaches election --many seem to hold to a caricature of it. But I get your point.
 
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