want to talk about OSAS?

Hammster · Oct 22, 2020

Swag365 said:
That's good to know. I would have to report you to the police otherwise.

Too bad you didn’t want to have a discussion.

RickReads · Oct 22, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus said that if a person speaks bad words against the Son, it can be forgiven, but speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven:

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32).

So not all sin is the same.

You put out a lot of scriptures. I feel like I`m throwing a rock at Goliath here but the Bible says this:

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

By implication, by logic the blessed man sins, otherwise there would be nothing for the Lord to "not impute." The blessed man is guilty but the judge won`t accept his indictment, the judge will not accept the charges in spite of the blessed mans guilt.

Why is that?

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If righteousness is a gift then I shouldn`t have to do anything to recieve it.

anna ~ grace · Oct 22, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them, the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

B H, I am always impressed and overjoyed by what you come up with! God has given you a very theologically astute and discerning heart. God bless you, friend.

Swag365 · Oct 22, 2020

Hammster said:
Too bad you didn’t want to have a discussion.

I think you are talking about yourself.

RickReads · Oct 22, 2020

Rachel20 said:
I've decided Pauls race isn't a picture of salvation, but of rewards at the Bema. If he used it to picture salvation, it would contradict Romans 4:4 where anything earned is counted as debt, not grace

Paul used the term "castaway". Seems a little heavier then lost rewards.

lismore · Oct 22, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
So you are a catholic with your mortal sin doctrine.

Now that the Pope is promoting homosexual partnerships I wonder how long it will be before the Catholic Church clarifies the 'mortal sin' doctrine.

Jesus is YHWH · Oct 22, 2020

lismore said:
Now that the Pope is promoting homosexual partnerships I wonder how long it will be before the Catholic Church clarifies the 'mortal sin' doctrine.

I haven't been following that news but it doesn't surprise me in our day and age. He declared he would "shake" things up and by golly he just did.

Hammster · Oct 22, 2020

Swag365 said:
I think you are talking about yourself.

Sorta, since it takes two (at least) to have a discussion.

lismore · Oct 22, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
I haven't been following that news but it doesn't surprise me in our day and age. He declared he would "shake" things up and by golly he just did.

Yes. Seems to me that the brothers and sisters who support 'OSAS' are falling back on the Holy Scriptures for support. Others who are against it are relying on tradition or traditional interpretations for support. So it's the solid word of God against the shifting sands of tradition, which we have seen with the current Pope, tradition can go 180 degrees in a short space of time. God Bless

Jesus is YHWH · Oct 22, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
No idea what all that is for. I asked you early on if you did not intend to answer the very simple question to just say so, so i don't waste the time trying to get an answer out of you.

Wish you'd a just had the decency to do that.

You already forgot that you were the one who quoted Luke 8 not me ?

and my response to your eisegesis was this:

@Kenny'sID

The devil believes so what ?

James 2
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The above in James is the same as the parable of the sower, its why Jesus cursed the unfruitful Fig Tree. Faith without words is a dead faith just like an unfruitful tree its as good as dead. A living faith produces Good works as per Ephesians 2:10.

Ephesians 2:8-10.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Luke 8
“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH · Oct 22, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
I just showed you where the bible says the could lose salvation, but you refused to see it.

But that was expected.

still making things up I see. the passage doesn't say he was saved.

Jesus is YHWH · Oct 22, 2020

RickReads said:
Can you repeat the statement? I`d like to see it.

haha good luck with that

returntosender · Oct 22, 2020

1an said:
You cannot become a person of no faith, if you have never had faith.
For the OSAS people to say "they never believed" is a nonsense. It is like this, you cannot lose your driving license I you never had one.
.

What osas person said they never believed? That makes no sense.

Rachel20 · Oct 22, 2020

RickReads said:
Paul used the term "castaway". Seems a little heavier then lost rewards.

Which means rejected, not withstanding the test - same thing you see with the testing of works in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15. There's loss of reward, but not of salvation -

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

returntosender · Oct 22, 2020

Did you all take grump pills today?
ORDER IN THE COURT. :preach:

Anthony2019 · Oct 22, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe mortal sin condemns a person.

I agree with you that mortal sin severs a person from the body of Christ and they no longer remain in a state of grace.
I think it's also worth adding that the distinction between venial and mortal can sometimes get blurred. There are some factors which lessen the culpability of someone's sin, making what would ordinarily consititute a mortal sin a venial one. For example, someone suffering from a battle with addiction who is trying to reform their life may have a strong faith in God, but may suffer numerous relapses. Because their intention and motivation is pure, and their hearts are still focussed on Christ, I believe that they do not fall from grace.

Swag365 · Oct 22, 2020

Hammster said:
Sorta, since it takes two (at least) to have a discussion.

OK pal look. If I ask someone for a verse from Sacred Scripture, I expect him to give me a verse, or indicate that he does not have one. If I ask someone a question, I expect an answer to the question, not a cut and paste from Sacred Scripture, a website, or a book, or some other source. That is what I consider a "discussion". To me a "discussion" ain't somebody responding to my question with a quotation from Sacred Scripture, a website, or a book. To you that is apparently a valid form of "discussion," which is fine, but it ain't to me, and I have no interest in it. But it's all good. We just have different views on how "discussions" should go. Peace.

returntosender · Oct 22, 2020

Swag365 said:
I am glad you believe that. So did Jimmy Swaggart and the pedophile priests mentioned in this thread, before they fell.

Weren't you leaving?

Swag365 · Oct 22, 2020

alllivesmatter said:
Weren't you leaving?

As soon as you recognize your error and admit that OSAS is untrue.

anna ~ grace · Oct 22, 2020

Anthony2019 said:
I agree with you that mortal sin severs a person from the body of Christ and they no longer remain in a state of grace.
I think it's also worth adding that the distinction between venial and mortal can sometimes get blurred. There are some factors which lessen the culpability of someone's sin, making what would ordinarily consititute a mortal sin a venial one. For example, someone suffering from a battle with addiction who is trying to reform their life may have a strong faith in God, but may suffer numerous relapses. Because their intention and motivation is pure, and their hearts are still focussed on Christ, I believe that they do not fall from grace.

There’s actually a Saint who was an opium addict for much of his life.

Saint Marcus Ji Tianxiang

want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

yes

no

of course

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Maranatha

my Lord and my God !

Psalm 144:1

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my Lord and my God !

my Lord and my God !

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Pax et bonum!

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