Pope endorses same-sex civil unions in new documentary film

Davidnic

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I have to say the best most benefit of the doubt statement I could come up with is that he did not mean for it to come across the way he did with the editing. But lacks the will to push a statement out from the Vatican because of the lavender Mafia

And in that case even the most generous benefit of the doubt I can give right now might be one of the worst possibilities.
 
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zippy2006

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Do we really expect Pope Francis to monitor every news site/outlet and what is said about him and issue corrections? Should the Vatican have corrected Taylor Marshall's video? While that would be nice in many ways it's not really practical.

I don't think it's fair to compare a Taylor Marshall one-off to this story. Basically every news outlet has reported on this story. If I reject this story then I have rejected the legitimacy of NBC, AP, CNA, BBC, and literally every other news outlet that exists!

No, it's not practical for the Vatican to issue clarifications every time a blogger misrepresents them. At the same time it is utterly insane for the Vatican not to issue a clarification when every news outlet in the world is publishing a story about what was allegedly said. A growing number of bishops have also either made or asked for clarifications with regard to the statement.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I have to say the best most benefit of the doubt statement I could come up with is that he did not mean for it to come across the way he did with the editing. But lacks the will to push a statement out from the Vatican because of the lavender Mafia

And in that case even the most generous benefit of the doubt I can give right now might be one of the worst possibilities.
That's not reassuring. But we know that the Lavender Mafia have the clout.
 
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Miss Shelby

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Why are people going along with it? I walked out. I follow the lord not the head of a church. Some other thread just started on this and from what I read if the pope says it's OK then it must be. I have to say from the outside looking in the pope scares me. No disrespect but I have to be honest.
people are going along with it because they agree with him or are gay themselves. Sorry late to the discussion
 
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zippy2006

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Here's the original statement in Spanish: Login • Instagram

The phrase was "convivencia civil." According to Wikipedia the Argentinian phrase for a civil union would either be "unión civil, or, "unión convivencial." Given the context the friar is probably right, though it is still confusing.

(Same-sex marriage in Argentina - Wikipedia)
 
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chevyontheriver

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Why are people going along with it? I walked out. I follow the lord not the head of a church. Some other thread just started on this and from what I read if the pope says it's OK then it must be. I have to say from the outside looking in the pope scares me. No disrespect but I have to be honest.
No, just because the pope has an opinion doesn't make his opinion right or anything I have to conform to. Infallibility is a very limited thing, and this is in no way one of those things.

This pope scares me. He's already done a lot of damage. He has a lot to answer for. I pray for him. I just don't endorse much that he says. Benedict and John Paul were a whole different story.
 
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Leaf473

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I'm confused.

Isn't the integrity of the faith of the bishop of Rome guaranteed by Jesus' prayer about Peter that his "faith not fail"?

I thought I had read that in the documents of Vatican 1.

(Not wanting to debate here, just wondering how other people see this.)
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'm confused.
Join the club.
Isn't the integrity of the faith of the bishop of Rome guaranteed by Jesus' prayer about Peter that his "faith not fail"?
Sort of. He isn't able to teach lies as part of the faith. He is able to have wrong opinions. He is able to sin. Dante was quite sure there were popes in hell.
I thought I had read that in the documents of Vatican 1.
That's a limited infallibility. Doesn't cover every utterance a pope ever makes. Doesn't cover documentaries. And it's a negative thing. It only protects the teaching office of the Church from errors in faith and morals. It doesn't mean every garden variety opinion is correct. It doesn't mean a particular pope is saved, just that there are limited times he is protected from saying something wrong. Which is why he has said nothing about the dubia. He is being prevented from answering that wrongly.
(Not wanting to debate here, just wondering how other people see this.)
No problem. As serious as this mistake of pope Francis is, I don't think it actually runs afoul of infallibility. Not even close IMHO.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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And I understand your view. I agree he should have come out already and clarified this. That's not something he ever does and that at a point becomes indefensible because of the scandal that causes the faithful. And at a point you have to say well if you're not coming out to clarify it it's because don't want to handle hard questions you just want people to interpret things their own way on each side.

That's not what a Pope should do.



Do you ever consider that he doesn't want to clarify his comments and that we are not his intended audience? The Pope is an educated person and media savvy. He knows exactly what he is saying and always gives himself the cover of ambiguity.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Do you ever consider that he doesn't want to clarify his comments and that we are not his intended audience? The Pope is an educated person and media savvy. He knows exactly what he is saying and always gives himself the cover of ambiguity.
THAT is the scariest possibility, far worse than bumbling or clueless or even being manipulated.
 
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Davidnic

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Do you ever consider that he doesn't want to clarify his comments and that we are not his intended audience? The Pope is an educated person and media savvy. He knows exactly what he is saying and always gives himself the cover of ambiguity.

Yep that is a definite possibility. And his actions do not give anyone enough information to defend him against that being true.
 
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narnia59

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Do you ever consider that he doesn't want to clarify his comments and that we are not his intended audience? The Pope is an educated person and media savvy. He knows exactly what he is saying and always gives himself the cover of ambiguity.
In this case his comments were evidently pretty clear, they just got edited. From National Catholic Reporter of all places:

Analysis of a clip in a new documentary in which Pope Francis expresses support for civil union laws for same-sex couples appears to indicate some of the pontiff's words came from an earlier interview in which he also clearly said he does not approve of gay sexual relationships.

The clip in the new film, which is titled "Francesco" and premiered in Rome Oct. 21, seems to have been taken from a previous interview given to a TV journalist in 2019.

Although Francis did say in that television interview, as shown in the documentary, that gay people are "children of God" and "have a right to be part of the family," the pope also added: "That does not mean approving of homosexual acts, not in the least."

Regarding the "civil union," that does appear to be a mistranslation, whether intentional or not, who knows.

Perhaps the Pope thinks he's already been clear enough for those who care to know, and for those who don't it won't matter anyway. Tim Staples compiled this list:

The fact that we have a record of Pope Francis teaching and saying explicitly things like his statement in 2015 on the day after a “Gay Pride” march in Rome that children need moms and dads. And he defended marriage. Children need heterosexual parents, Pope Francis says after gay pride march We have his statement on January 18 of 2015, saying, “the family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage” and he condemned it. Two days earlier he said homosexual so-called marriage “disfigures God’s plan for creation.” Given this and his well-known declarations calling the adoption of children into gay “households” “child abuse,”

I would add to that in Amoris Laetitia he states:
In discussing the dignity and mission of the family, the Synod Fathers observed that, “as for proposals to place unions between homosexual persons on the same level as marriage, there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family”. It is unacceptable “that local Churches should be subjected to pressure in this matter and that international bodies should make financial aid to poor countries dependent on the introduction of laws to establish 'marriage' between persons of the same sex"

It seems to me he's been clear on the issue and it's been shown that this report is false. I'm not sure why that's not the end of the story.
 
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narnia59

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I don't think it's fair to compare a Taylor Marshall one-off to this story. Basically every news outlet has reported on this story. If I reject this story then I have rejected the legitimacy of NBC, AP, CNA, BBC, and literally every other news outlet that exists!

No, it's not practical for the Vatican to issue clarifications every time a blogger misrepresents them. At the same time it is utterly insane for the Vatican not to issue a clarification when every news outlet in the world is publishing a story about what was allegedly said. A growing number of bishops have also either made or asked for clarifications with regard to the statement.
Then I would reject the legitimacy of those news outlets. If National Catholic Reporter cares enough to do the research and report it was a deliberate deception and they don't, how legitimate are they? Nobody fact checked the source before they reported, which is not a surprise.

I would welcome a clarification but I don't have to have one to know what the Pope has said about this issue.
 
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Markie Boy

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I'm confused.

Isn't the integrity of the faith of the bishop of Rome guaranteed by Jesus' prayer about Peter that his "faith not fail"?

I thought I had read that in the documents of Vatican 1.

(Not wanting to debate here, just wondering how other people see this.)

The fine print required to make the Vatican I statement will give one a headache.
 
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zippy2006

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Regarding the "civil union," that does appear to be a mistranslation, whether intentional or not, who knows.

It seems not:

Argentine archbishop and Pope Francis advisor says 'civil union' not mistranslated in documentary

I don't find any of the confusion confusing. Pretty much everyone agrees that the promotion of same-sex civil unions is implicit support for homosexual acts. The liberals cheered and the conservatives booed, but they all shared that premise, and who can blame them? Hopefully Francis doesn't share the premise, but the position still strikes me as poor judgment on all sorts of levels.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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It seems not:

Argentine archbishop and Pope Francis advisor says 'civil union' not mistranslated in documentary

I don't find any of the confusion confusing. Pretty much everyone agrees that the promotion of same-sex civil unions is implicit support for homosexual acts. The liberals cheered and the conservatives booed, but they all shared that premise, and who can blame them? Hopefully Francis doesn't share the premise, but the position still strikes me as poor judgment on all sorts of levels.




Of course it is implicit . The most ridiculous thing I read today is that cohabitation does not necessarily mean a sexual relationship. I think they are confusing roommate with cohabitation. It was such a ridiculous statement.

Let’s pretend it is a straight couple consisting of a 20 something guy and girl who are attracted to one another. That sexless cohabitation wouldn’t last 5 minutes.
 
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Markie Boy

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Satan tricked Adam and Eve via sly and devious ways - much how the Vatican is run today.

The Evil one doesn't come out and say - "Hey do this, it will feel good for a bit, and then horrible for eternity."

All back to JPII kissing the Koran, and further, a long string of things that would have gotten popes thrown out of the early church, no longer do because of the supreme, centralized power.

Does anyone think Athanasius (if he were here) would have allowed JPII to kiss the Koran and just let it go????? NO WAY! The church of today is not in continuity of the church of the first 1,000 years.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Satan tricked Adam and Eve via sly and devious ways - much how the Vatican is run today.

The Evil one doesn't come out and say - "Hey do this, it will feel good for a bit, and then horrible for eternity."

All back to JPII kissing the Koran, and further, a long string of things that would have gotten popes thrown out of the early church, no longer do because of the supreme, centralized power.

Does anyone think Athanasius (if he were here) would have allowed JPII to kiss the Koran and just let it go????? NO WAY! The church of today is not in continuity of the church of the first 1,000 years.

While I do agree with you on a more basic level I do prefer not to go into outstretched "whataboutism". Athanasius, the great saint had many people killed on his command. I'm certain that he regrets some of those orders in his heavenly retrospective. We all commit mistakes and the Qur'an kissing was definitely one of those occasions for John Paul ii. Francis is a whole different topic however. He commits the one gross scandal after the other, which puts him in a rather poor position altogether. He's more similar to Arius than to JPii in that perspective.
 
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