The link referring to the verse that I brought up about buying swords doesn't work anymore.
Last time, they moved the article. It appears this time, they removed it. I did a search and they appeared to have completely removed it. But it is a good thing I saved the article on the forums and now on my Google docs.
You can check out my quoting the article in the OP of this thread here:
Love and Non-Resistance
You said:
Well, to put it in line with the topic, I used to believe that Jesus only forgave past sins, and that was another thing I was mad about God with, that you just outright lose your salvation if you sin after being saved which made it like it was best to wait until your death bed to get saved then. But no, I do believe that you're forgiven in advance since you can't sacrifice Jesus more than once.
Hebrews 10 goes into that.I believe now that you're still forgiven by that same sacrifice even for current and future sins if you seek it. It's like not only are your sins forgiven and separated from you as far as the east is from the west when you're saved, but you're adopted by God.
I believe Hebrews 10:12, and Hebrews 10:14 is dealing with talk of the Provisional Atonement and not Justification. I believe there are four aspects of salvation described in the Bible, and not just one or two, etc.; Check out this thread here to learn about the four different aspects of salvation.
The Four Aspects of Salvation.
As for past sins ONLY being forgiven:
All I can do is point you to the truth on this topic and leave it up to you on whether or not you want to see that truth. Most let emotionalism or life experience, or their Pastor's ear tickling teachings sink in to what they want to hear so as to guide their thoughts on this topic. I am not going to sugar coat the truth for you. What I said on this topic (with Scripture) stands in this thread here:
The Bible teaches only past sins are forgiven us (not future sins).
You said:
It's a relationship. In fact that's the most important aspect of being saved, you begin a relationship with God. that relationship is 2 way, it involves communication, mutual respect (such as God letting you walk away if you really want to), mutual love, submitting to authority of the Father in the relationship, and, seeking His forgiveness when you do wrong.
1 John is where I get that, even as a Christian, you WILL sin, you don't seek sin and you don't ENJOY sin, but you will sin. So you seek forgiveness from your Father, and your Father, BEING your Father, having established that Relationship with Him, will forgive it, there may involve chastisement as a disciplining action as in Hebrews 12.
The false belief that a believer will always inevitably commit “mortal sin” (or grievous sin) in this life is not a teaching taught in the Bible. I see this view as a justification of sinning when the Bible does not condone this kind of defeated behavior. But this is a discussion for another thread. But a good place to start in learning why it is false is to read through the verses in this previous thread I mentioned to you
here, and to look at this thread here:
Battling sin vs. Justifying sin (An explanation on 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9).
As for chastisement:
I believe chastisement is only for those who have a correct undertanding on sin and salvation (and or who will have again a correct understanding on sin and salvation by that correction). In other words, the believer who thinks they can sin and still be saved can be corrected, but it will be only if they know by God's correction that doing such sins they need to confess and forsake such sins in order to have mercy again. See the parable of the prodigal son and the James 5:19-20. Anyways, if you want to discuss this topic further, please start another thread, my friend. I do not want to derail this thread.
You said:
I also think sometimes we sin in ways we're not even aware of, sins of omission like God may have provided a witnessing opportunity and you didn't seize it. James 4:17 would say that's a sin, but you might not feel as though you've sinned by not talking to a stranger in public unsolicited.
So would that sin not be forgiven because we didn't take note of a conviction at the time or forgot about it? That's not what I believe. Romans 8:26 shows that the Holy Spirit Himself intercedes for us and while we pray for forgiveness for our sins, the Holy Spirit is being an advocate and maybe filling in the blanks that we can't remember.
Mostly on forgiveness of sins I think the important thing is that you get saved and establish this relationship and that you do work to keep it a good relationship. You don't just walk contrary to your Father deliberately, you don't seek sin, you don't take pleasure in sin, and when you sin, you seek forgiveness and turn away from it, and, for the times our own fallibility doesn't remember every single sin, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.
Yes, I believe God will convict a believer of sin. That is why I do not buy into the theories of men that say that we cannot possibly know of all sin that can condemn us. For if the Spirit reproves the world of sin (John 16:8-9), how much more will the Spirit do for the truly faithful believer? I believe there are minor transgressions of faults that will not condemn us, and I believe there are mortal sins that can condemn us. An example of a minor transgression or fault of character (that does not condemn) can be seen when Paul ignored the warnings by the Spirit to go to Jerusalem. Paul was not condemned because his motivation was love. Paul wanted to see his fellow Jews saved. But if Paul started to commit adultery, and or he started to get drunk and he died in doing those sins, he woud no longer be saved.
You said:
Well, all sins of commission are willful, they all require will for us to do, and Christians do sin.
Willful sin are those kinds of sins that a person justifies in doing. They know it is wrong, but they do it anyways. A non-willful sin is a sin that you did not set out to do, but it happened against what you did not want. For example: A man may have seen a woman dressed in an inappropriate way, and lusted after her. He did not intentionally set out to look for woman who were dressed in that way, but he happened to come across one by chance and he lusted with no real intention or will to do that sin. That is the difference between willful and non-willful sins are. If you disagree, we can humbly agree to disagree.
You said:
We get tempted and we are not Christ able to withstand all temptation,
James talks about temptation and how that our overcoming in that temptation involves eternal life.
“Blessed
is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).
You said:
we screw up, we decide to do that sin, click that racy image, take a second look at that scantily clad woman, get angry and maybe think about something bad happening to whoever we got angry at. But unlike someone who's not saved.. it's met without pleasure, but with immediate remorse "I shouldn't have done that".
There are a few ways that people look at sin as a christian.
1. I have to obey the laws and not sin or I'll lose my salvation, basically works salvation/legalism
2. I'm under grace not the law, hypergrace and lawlessness, which is where OSAS gets its bad rap.
3. It becomes a comparing your good works to bad works, which is also works salvation but do more good than bad.. kinda the catholic way of looking at it.
4. Sanctification is a process it is a good work that the Lord began in you and will continue, even if it takes your entire life (and frankly even then as long as we're in the flesh we won't be perfect)
For a time I believed in the balancing act #3, and then I believed in #2, and now I believe #4. It's a process, and part of that process is failing along the way, and being disciplined for it.
That's another belief that as I matured I was more correct in. I'd believed as I'd been taught when I was younger, that once you believe in Jesus everything was going to go well for you, God would always be for you and not against you.
Now after having read Hebrews 12, That's laughable, and it should have been laughable in the gospels themselves where Jesus outright says we'll endure persecution and hardships, Jesus was never a health and wealth prosperity preacher. But now I correctly see that you get disciplined by God and it can be quite severe. Disabling or even fatal in some cases. 1 Corinthians 5 has a person delivered unto Satan to be killed so that his flesh would die and his soul be saved.
anyway.. OSAS is kind of difficult for me to find a position on both within scripture and my own experience. I feel like I walked away, and there was changes. I took pleasure in sin, I sought sin, after not having been that way for several years when God was a bigger part of my life. Anger at God over some incorrect doctrines I think was the start of that downward spiral. Anger leads to doubt and rebellion. I do feel that in those times looking back, I was not the same person that I was before, nor have been after coming back.
But at the same time, He finally called me back, even though I was stubborn about it and the chastisement was disabling. But He called me back, and I can now see all the bad things that happened as disciplining actions, and trying to call me back.
So it's a really hard situation to feel out for a doctrine. Psalm 89 has some parts where God says He visits transgressions with the rod, and iniquity with stripes, but He won't take away His lovingkindness.
So on the one hand, evidence that I would have lost my salvation is that I changed as a person, took pleasure in sin, sought sin, loved sin, had doubts about God, and even voiced those doubts to people. Like Peter denying Christ over and over until the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows and then feeling absolute shame. When I came back, I felt absolute shame most of all in my claiming to be agnostic and even mocking the faith.
On the other hand evidence I never lost it was.. even though I publicly denied belief in God, I still found myself talking to Him, still seeking Him, even though I was mad at Him and wanted to not be on speaking terms.. you know? If you get in a fight with a loved one you still think about them even though you don't want to return their calls. So how could I truly and honestly have not believed in Him despite WHAT I said to other people when I was by myself I was reaching out to Him and thinking about Him? Secondly He BEAT me with that rod of chastisement. Just a lot of "what are the chances of that happening?" "random" bad luck things happened to me. Which shows me now as I understand Hebrews that God was still dealing with me as a son. A disobedient son.
Now when I think about the times when multiple people did the same thing wrong and I'm the only one who got caught and punished.. now I think, all the guys who "got away with it".. they weren't saved... I wish I still knew how to contact them and get them saved now.
So.. on OSAS.. I don't even know, He called me back so it's not like He just let me go off and die in my sins. Did I lose salvation? Or was it just a wicked backslide and me being the prodigal son but I was always elected for salvation.
Even believing in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). Believing in Jesus is also called a work, too (John 6:29). So one is initially and foundationally saved by obeying the law on God's grace, and or obeying the work of God's grace (Which technically is legalism because they are laws based). The point Paul was making in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Titus 3:5 was in reference to 1st aspect of salvation (Justification), and not the 2nd aspect of salvation (Sanctification). Justification is being saved by God's grace by accepting Jesus as one's Savior, and seeking forgiveness with Him, and in believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law or works. One is initially and foundationally saved by Justification or God's grace. Sanctification always follows Justification. Sanctification is the next step or stage in the salvation process. This is putting away sin, doing good works (by the power of God working in you), and living holy. Only by cooperating with the Lord can one successfully navigate the process of Sanctification. But one cannot justify sin by thinking or saying they can commit mortal sin and still be saved.
To see a list of verses on how serious sin is separation from God, check out this post
here in another thread. In other words, if you want to reply on this topic, please do so in the thread to the post link I provided (in this paragraph), or create another thread. If you do so, I really would appreciate it. Again, I do not want to derail this thread. I hope you understand.
Blessings be unto you from the Lord.
