Religious Experiences in Altered States

cloudyday2

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There are different types of altered mental states and different ways of reaching those states. Are some religious experiences more authentic than others simply because the mental states differ?

- The prophets of Baal in the Bible apparently cut themselves to enter an altered state.
- American Indians had sweat lodges and so forth.
- European witches used flying ointment.
- Sufis use repetitive dancing and music.
- Eastern Orthodox monks use hesychasm.
- Apparently psilocybin mushrooms appear in some early Christian religious art.
- Near-death-experiences might be classified as altered mental states by skeptics.
- Modern people sometimes use psychedelics to enlighten themselves.
- People practice meditation to enter altered states (among other things).
- Some religious innovators might be considered mentally ill by psychiatrists.
- In Christianity there are fasts and vigils.
- There is the mysterious soma plant.
- ... lots of examples

Your thoughts?
 
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Aussie Pete

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There are different types of altered mental states and different ways of reaching those states. Are some religious experiences more authentic than others simply because the mental states differ?

- The prophets of Baal in the Bible apparently cut themselves to enter an altered state.
- American Indians had sweat lodges and so forth.
- European witches used flying ointment.
- Sufis use repetitive dancing and music.
- Eastern Orthodox monks use hesychasm.
- Apparently psilocybin mushrooms appear in some early Christian religious art.
- Near-death-experiences might be classified as altered mental states by skeptics.
- Modern people sometimes use psychedelics to enlighten themselves.
- People practice meditation to enter altered states (among other things).
- Some religious innovators might be considered mentally ill by psychiatrists.
- In Christianity there are fasts and vigils.
- ... lots of examples

Your thoughts?
Depends on what you mean by altered states. Experiences that interfere with the mind and will of an individual leave that person open to deception. I had a personal experience recently. In hospital I was given Endone for pain relief and morphine a couple of times. I had dreams that I was certain were reality. When I woke up, it took me a while to realise where I was and that the dream was just that. It was creepy and I quit taking the stuff as soon as the pain became bearable.

I know enough former drug addicts to know how dangerous mind altering substances can be. One guy I know seriously believes that the earth is surrounded by aliens who are about to invade. He thinks Star Wars is a documentary. He's nice enough but a complete nutter.
 
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cloudyday2

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Depends on what you mean by altered states. Experiences that interfere with the mind and will of an individual leave that person open to deception. I had a personal experience recently. In hospital I was given Endone for pain relief and morphine a couple of times. I had dreams that I was certain were reality. When I woke up, it took me a while to realise where I was and that the dream was just that. It was creepy and I quit taking the stuff as soon as the pain became bearable.

I know enough former drug addicts to know how dangerous mind altering substances can be. One guy I know seriously believes that the earth is surrounded by aliens who are about to invade. He thinks Star Wars is a documentary. He's nice enough but a complete nutter.
My instincts tell me that we should not seek-out a religious experience by intentionally altering our mental state. It seems more humble to wait for God to inspire us when and if he thinks it is appropriate. God can surely inspire a person in any mental state - even an ordinary mental state.

On the other hand, maybe fasting and praying in a freezing stream (for example) is a way to demonstrate our desire for inspiration? Maybe simply quieting our thoughts through meditation or contemplation is a useful altered state?
 
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awitch

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There are different types of altered mental states and different ways of reaching those states. Are some religious experiences more authentic than others simply because the mental states differ?

I would propose they are less authentic.
If you taking such actions or using brain-altering substances, then you should expect that your resulting experience is caused by those actions and substances and not a real spiritual event. I would not expect a real spiritual event to rely on them.
 
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Jeshu

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If you taking such actions or using brain-altering substances, then you should expect that your resulting experience is caused by those actions and substances and not a real spiritual event. I would not expect a real spiritual event to rely on them.

The bible doesn't agree with you! Nothing can separate a believer from the love of God, The love of God is very much a spiritual experience in peoples lives. If i'm in hospital off my face on pain killers then i should not think that God's love can not be experienced, for then God's word would prove to be false.

Romans 8:35-39
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:


“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”



No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
"
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Your thoughts?

Well I think probably all mystical / spiritual experiences in Christianity and otherwise have to do with altered states. The real question is whether or not you are taking psychotropics of not.... The Biblical definition of the term witchcraft, comes from the Greek word that we get the word pharmacy from.


Anyway, in my younger days as a would be therapist, in graduate school psychology etc. I was a fan of Milton Erickson (not be confused with much more famous Erik Erickson). He pioneered short term psychotherapy as psychiatrist and hypnotist. But I learned many things from that, most notably that everyone has different states of consciousness throughout the day etc. We have things that we call "Day Dreaming", "being in the zone etc." And well spiritual experience works with that (if you could somehow monitor what is going on in the brain etc.)

That was something I came to appreciate when I left Protestantism into Christian Orthodoxy. There was a real theology and practice of beauty when it came to singing, as well as the use of art, incense etc. My first experience was a bit like the representatives sent by King Vladmir who said they "didn't know if they were in heaven or earth".


That being said, I do have something against what I call Shammanism. Before I embraced the traditional end of Christianity, I was in the area that is called the Charismatic movement, Pentecostalism, or some refer to that as Holly Rollers, Faith Healers etc. One thing, I didn't like as an introvert, was what I called Holy Aerobics, where the worship leaders got you to jump up and down, shout etc. to basically bring on some kind of spiritual experience via doing activities that would obviously trigger endorphins etc. This sort of thing was OK in moderate quantities, but became really obnoxious as time went on where people are trying to force you into experiencing something.


But I do believe in various activities like having a quiet time, fasting, prayer, chanting etc. We often need to leave behind the distractions and things that keep us occupied and distracted to find inspiration and renewal.
 
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awitch

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The bible doesn't agree with you! Nothing can separate a believer from the love of God, The love of God is very much a spiritual experience in peoples lives. If i'm in hospital off my face on pain killers then i should not think that God's love can not be experienced, for then God's word would prove to be false.

I think the examples given in the OP reference people who are taking substances or performing actions with the intent of invoking a spiritual experience.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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- Eastern Orthodox monks use hesychasm

Do we consider a quiet heart an altered state? I guess if we are normally distracted and busy, busy. Is trained attention an altered state?
 
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cloudyday2

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I think the examples given in the OP reference people who are taking substances or performing actions with the intent of invoking a spiritual experience.
That is true, but I was also wondering about altered mental states that happen unintentionally. For example, my aunt is very sensitive to medicines and she was given pain medicine in an emergency room which nearly killed her. She said everything turned white and she saw her deceased father there in the room. Was she having an authentic spiritual experience even though it was from a reaction to medicine?
 
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- The prophets of Baal in the Bible apparently cut themselves to enter an altered state.
What makes you think that?

Here's the challenge:

1 Kings 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

Elijah is telling them to call for a third party to show up and perform a specific action.

You can't order a pizza, then take LSD and expect the pizza to get here faster.
 
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Tolworth John

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Are some religious experiences more authentic than others simply because the mental states differ?

Religious experiences are best calendared by how they relate to the truth.

Having an estatic out of body experience or fission etc is meaningless if it is a lie.

I'm biased as I maintain that only Jesus is the truth and the way to God, but I base that on the unique Christian claim that only in Christianity is salvation a gift.
All other beliefs make one earn salvation.
 
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cloudyday2

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What makes you think that?

Here's the challenge:

1 Kings 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

Elijah is telling them to call for a third party to show up and perform a specific action.

You can't order a pizza, then take LSD and expect the pizza to get here faster.
I can't find a link at the moment, but apparently ancient prophets routinely cut themselves. There was even a saying that went something like "you can tell a prophet by his cuts/scars". Some historians think the cutting associated with the prophets of Baal may have been to reenact some scene in the Baal cycle.

I suspect that the cutting was probably a way to enter an altered state. American Indians cut slices from their forearms as part of their rituals. People with mental illness often cut themselves, because the pain is followed by a good feeling.
 
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I can't find a link at the moment, but apparently ancient prophets routinely cut themselves. There was even a saying that went something like "you can tell a prophet by his cuts/scars". Some historians think the cutting associated with the prophets of Baal may have been to reenact some scene in the Baal cycle.

I suspect that the cutting was probably a way to enter an altered state. American Indians cut slices from their forearms as part of their rituals. People with mental illness often cut themselves, because the pain is followed by a good feeling.
Interesting point you made.

1 Kings 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

From Adam Clarke's Commentary ...
This was done according to the rites of that barbarous religion; if the blood of the bullock would not move him they thought their own blood might; and with it they smeared themselves and their sacrifice. This was not only the custom of the idolatrous Israelites, but of the Syrians, Persians, Greeks, Indians, and in short of all the heathen world.
 
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I disagree.

There either is or isn't a supernatural. One can't have it both ways.
Suppose it is a continuum between the natural (physical) and and supernatural (Spiritual)? Something more subtle than the quantum realm?
 
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