Third Temple Scam in modern Jerusalem?

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2020

nolidad said:
My bad I forgot to inser Ez. 20:33-38 about being forced into the new covenant.

but before we discuss any further, I still await you to defend biblically and historically that Daniel 9:24 and 27 have been fulfilled.

Show the 7 year covenant Jesus made in 27 AD.
Show that sacrifices ceased in 30 Ad (not their effectiveness but as is written the sacrifices ceased).
What is THE transgression Israel finished.

When did Israel seal vision and prophecy?
When did Israel bring in everlasting righteousness? Remember this is for Daniels people and Jerusalem.
When did Israel anoint Messiah?

I await your answers from history and Scripture for these clear statements from Scripture.

If you allegorize defend the allegorical reinterpretation as more valid than the literal interpretation!

Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Did Christ die after the 69 weeks?

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

-----------------------------------------------

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
(from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

...........................................................

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Many Bible scholars believe Christ's earthly ministry lasted about 3 1/2 years.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews. When did this occur?

al 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Paul said he went to see Peter about three years after his conversion.

.

jgr · Oct 20, 2020

nolidad said:
I still await you to defend biblically and historically that Daniel 9:24 and 27 have been fulfilled.

Clement of Alexandria (150 AD - 215 AD) (On Daniel 9:24-27 ; The 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel)
"From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation."

nolidad · Oct 21, 2020

Douggg said:
Yes, Antiohcus backed down. Here is the biblical account of it...

Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

You have never heard of the line in the sand incident? It is an historical event.

I copied and pasted this...

An altercation between Antiochus Epiphanes and a Roman ambassador by the name of Gaius Popillius Laenas is the origin of the saying “to draw a line in the sand.” When Antiochus brought his army against Egypt in 168 BC, Popillius stood in his way and gave him a message from the Roman Senate ordering him to stop the attack. Antiochus responded that he would think it over and discuss it with his council, at which point Popillius drew a circle in the sand around Antiochus and told him that, if he did not give the Roman Senate an answer before crossing over the line in the sand, Rome would declare war. Antiochus decided to withdraw as Rome had requested.

Yep!

Still doesn't make the king of fierce countenance in Daniel 8 the antichrist. It is grammatically and contextually impossible to call him that.

YOu want to say god made a mistake calling antiochus a king of fierce countenance because he diecided not to test Rome.

YOU still have not answered how We go from the end of the four kings reigns Antiochus arrives to your reinterpretation that this little horn comes from the ten horns of Daniel 7.

I think that because you see a little horn in both and in REvelation, they all must be talking about the same person. but a normal usual reading of teh text shows Daniel 8 is a different person.

The bible generally is not concerned in the OT about the exploit of gentile kings in gentile lands unless they affect Israel. Antiochus was a king of fierce countenance and did horrific thigs to Israel. As prophesied here in 8. That is why he is considered the prototype of teh antichrist for teh horrific things he did.

He rose to power in the latter times of teh four kingdoms, who rose ot power after Alexander teh great, who conquered the Medeo-Persian Empire! This is all one narrative.

YOU have not shown with hard evidence why we should reject the natural flow of this passage and make the king of fierce countenance as of now 2,500 years future, especially when the passage clearly and unambiguously and without mystery when this king of fierce countenace begins his reign.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Why do you reject this?

nolidad · Oct 21, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Did Christ die after the 69 weeks?

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

-----------------------------------------------

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
(from Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

...........................................................

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Many Bible scholars believe Christ's earthly ministry lasted about 3 1/2 years.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Paul said the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews. When did this occur?

al 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Paul said he went to see Peter about three years after his conversion.

.

So you are saying the New covenant is fulfilled.

so that means the whole house of Judah and the whole house of Israel =all 12 tribes of natural Jews are all saved right now!

That means no one has to teach His neighbor to know th eLord for everyone of us knows HIm from the least to the greatest! For God has written His law in the heart of every Jew living troday!

Is that what you are saying by these verses?

We know the New covenant is uniquely for Israel because:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

A) god didn't lead out the gentiles but the Jews and those slaves who wished to become Jews!
B) OUr Fathers did nottravel the deserts
C) Our fathers did not break the Old covenant!

See I believe this is going to happen- but after the fulness of teh gentiles be come in!

Douggg · Oct 21, 2020

nolidad said:
YOu want to say god made a mistake calling antiochus a king of fierce countenance because he diecided not to test Rome.

The little horn is not Antiochus because Antiochus was not so powerful. And Antiochus never committed what the bible calls the transgression of desolation. However, Antiochus is generally regarded as being the one in Daniel 11 who committed the abomination of desolation by placing a statue of Zeus in the temple.

The transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation are two different things.

nolidad said:
YOU still have not answered how We go from the end of the four kings reigns Antiochus arrives to your reinterpretation that this little horn comes from the ten horns of Daniel 7.

the little horn in Daniel 7 and his kingdom shared by ten kings meet their end at the time the kingdom of God is brought here to earth by Jesus. Daniel 7:25-27.

the little horn in Daniel 8 meets his end in a confrontation with Jesus. Daniel 8:25

It is the same person as the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

nolidad said:
think that because you see a little horn in both and in REvelation, they all must be talking about the same person. but a normal usual reading of teh text shows Daniel 8 is a different person.

I don't know of any "little horn" wording in Revelation.

Here is the basic progression of the person we are talking about from beginning all the way to his end.

First - little horn, leader of the EU, 7th Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire, ten kings co-leaders.

Then - As the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog. Brings his army into the middle east to act as peace keeper.

Then - Anointed the King of Israel/Messiah, now the Antichrist, the 7 years begin. Perceived to be the beginning of the messianic era of peace and safety.

Then - 3 years later, thereabouts, reveals himself to be the man of sin, and not the Messiah after all, by committing the transgression of desolation act of sitting in the temple, claiming to be God. Shattering the perception of peace and safety.

Ending his time as the Antichrist. As the Jews will reject him from continuing as their King of Israel.

Then - God has the person killed for his act, and in disdain for him brings him back to life.

Now the person is the beast. The ten leaders of the EU, hand their kingdom over to him to act as dictator. The 8th Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire.

Then - False prophet has a statue image of the person (the beast) made and has it placed on the wings of the temple, i.e. the temple mount grounds. The abomination of desolation.

Triggering the great tribulation, which goes on for 1335 days until the day that Jesus returns, to cleanse the temple from the things that have made it desolate. Namely the beast and the false prophet. And the statue image of the beast, which at that time will have been incarnated by Satan.

See my illustration below.

.

Douggg · Oct 21, 2020

nolidad said:
He rose to power in the latter times of teh four kingdoms, who rose ot power after Alexander teh great, who conquered the Medeo-Persian Empire! This is all one narrative.

No, it is actually not all one narrative.

Daniel has a vision beginning with the ram and he goat.

The vision later turns to the little horn and transgression of desolation. That particular part of the vision, Gabriel informed is time of the end.

The parts about the ram and the he goat, and the four breakup kingdoms is all history to us as ancient history.

The part about the little horn and the transgression of desolation, however, is time of the end, as Gabriel informed. And has yet to be fulfilled.

____________________________________________________________

nolidad, are you aware that the vision of the transgression of desolation by the little horn is carried over into Daniel 9 ? In the text.

mkgal1 · Oct 21, 2020

nolidad said:
Show the 7 year covenant Jesus made in 27 AD.
Show that sacrifices ceased in 30 Ad (not their effectiveness but as is written the sacrifices ceased).
What is THE transgression Israel finished.

When did Israel seal vision and prophecy?
When did Israel bring in everlasting righteousness? Remember this is for Daniels people and Jerusalem.
When did Israel anoint Messiah?

I await your answers from history and Scripture for these clear statements from Scripture.

The Bible text says "He will confirm a covenant with many"....not *make*. Jesus confirmed the New Covenant prophesied of. He was the one that fulfilled Daniel's prophecy.....not Israel. Jesus was the only Israelite that kept the covenant.

nolidad · Oct 22, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The Bible text says "He will confirm a covenant with many"....not *make*. Jesus confirmed the New Covenant prophesied of. He was the one that fulfilled Daniel's prophecy.....not Israel. Jesus was the only Israelite that kept the covenant.

Now you need to look up the word "confirm" in the Hebrew and how it was used! YOu will find out its meaning is to make and empower a strong pact!

And the one confirming cannot be Jesus! It goes back to its nearest antecedent which is the Prince of the people to come who will destroy the sanctuary- so teh "he" is a Roman ruler!

Sorry but God created grammar as well as language so we can understand what is written. YOu have to defend why god would violate teh most basic rule of Grammar to get this passage to mean what you say it means.

Still waiting for you to show me the fulfilments of Dan.9:24-27

nolidad · Oct 22, 2020

Douggg said:
The little horn is not Antiochus because Antiochus was not so powerful. And Antiochus never committed what the bible calls the transgression of desolation. However, Antiochus is generally regarded as being the one in Daniel 11 who committed the abomination of desolation by placing a statue of Zeus in the temple.

The transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation are two different things.

Now you are telliong god who did or did not commit a transgression of desolation?

I agree the transgression and abomination are different- for the abomination is a person.

Dan. 9 Abomination--antichrist
Dan. 11 abomination- Antiochus.

It does not matter how powerful you think he is! If god called him powerful- he was powerful enough!

Besides He is the little horn that comes from the four notable ones- you still have yet to answer that!

Douggg said:
the little horn in Daniel 7 and his kingdom shared by ten kings meet their end at the time the kingdom of God is brought here to earth by Jesus. Daniel 7:25-27.

the little horn in Daniel 8 meets his end in a confrontation with Jesus. Daniel 8:25

It is the same person as the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

Wrong again! The little horn of Dan. 8 rises up in the latter time of teh four kingdoms- not from the ten! That is the bible. He does stand against god and He did die without hand- he drowned in the sea!

Sorry but Scripture as written and not retranslated and history speak against your opinion!

Douggg said:
The little horn is not Antiochus because Antiochus was not so powerful. And Antiochus never committed what the bible calls the transgression of desolation. However, Antiochus is generally regarded as being the one in Daniel 11 who committed the abomination of desolation by placing a statue of Zeus in the temple.

The transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation are two different things.

the little horn in Daniel 7 and his kingdom shared by ten kings meet their end at the time the kingdom of God is brought here to earth by Jesus. Daniel 7:25-27.

the little horn in Daniel 8 meets his end in a confrontation with Jesus. Daniel 8:25

It is the same person as the little horn in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

I don't know of any "little horn" wording in Revelation.

Here is the basic progression of the person we are talking about from beginning all the way to his end.

First - little horn, leader of the EU, 7th Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire, ten kings co-leaders.

Then - As the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog. Brings his army into the middle east to act as peace keeper.

Then - Anointed the King of Israel/Messiah, now the Antichrist, the 7 years begin. Perceived to be the beginning of the messianic era of peace and safety.

Then - 3 years later, thereabouts, reveals himself to be the man of sin, and not the Messiah after all, by committing the transgression of desolation act of sitting in the temple, claiming to be God. Shattering the perception of peace and safety.

Ending his time as the Antichrist. As the Jews will reject him from continuing as their King of Israel.

Then - God has the person killed for his act, and in disdain for him brings him back to life.

Now the person is the beast. The ten leaders of the EU, hand their kingdom over to him to act as dictator. The 8th Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire.

Then - False prophet has a statue image of the person (the beast) made and has it placed on the wings of the temple, i.e. the temple mount grounds. The abomination of desolation.

Triggering the great tribulation, which goes on for 1335 days until the day that Jesus returns, to cleanse the temple from the things that have made it desolate. Namely the beast and the false prophet. And the statue image of the beast, which at that time will have been incarnated by Satan.

See my illustration below.

. View attachment 286903

Nice artwork. I applaud th work you did putting it together. But it is based on faulty exegesis of SCripture as has been shown you by myself and others.

In order for your opinion to have relevance- you are forced to forget teh little horn of Daniel 8 rises after teh he goat(Alexander) destroys the two horned ram)medeo-persia), Then the four notable ones rise and in the latter time of their kingdoms- this little horn rises- you have not and cannot defend a 2500+year gap between the four generals and the rise of the little horn!

The rest was all rebutted. YOu have doen what many other sincere but sincerely misguided believers have done- attempt to map out what Scripture doesn;t map out in the way you demand it to.

nolidad · Oct 22, 2020

Douggg said:
No, it is actually not all one narrative.

Daniel has a vision beginning with the ram and he goat.

The vision later turns to the little horn and transgression of desolation. That particular part of the vision, Gabriel informed is time of the end.

The parts about the ram and the he goat, and the four breakup kingdoms is all history to us as ancient history.

The part about the little horn and the transgression of desolation, however, is time of the end, as Gabriel informed. And has yet to be fulfilled.

It is a mystery to me how as a believer you can even say that!

Defend this position biblically and grammatically! or we are through!

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

HISTORY AND GRAMMAR:

ALEXANDER, THE FOUR GENERALS ANTIOCHUS!

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

RAM--- MEDES AND PERSIANS
HE GOAT----ALEXANDER
FOUR STOOD UP THE FOUR GENERALS
LATTER TIEM OF "THEIR" (THE FOUR) KINGDOM
KING OF FIERCE COUNTENANCE ANTIOCHUS IV

NOW YOU NEED TO SHOW WHY THE PROPER RULES OF GRAMMAR AND COSISTENCY ARE NOT IN EFFECT HERE AND THE MEDES AND PERSIANS AND aLEXANDER AND THE FOUR GENERALS ARE ALL SEQUENTIAL BUT THE LITTLE HORN WHO ARISES AT TEH END FO TEHFOUR KINGDOMS IS RESERVED FOR 2500+ YEARS IN THE FUTURE!

yoU HAVE YET TO DO THIS AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS UNTIL YOU DO THIS

jgr · Oct 22, 2020

nolidad said:
Now you need to look up the word "confirm" in the Hebrew and how it was used! YOu will find out its meaning is to make and empower a strong pact!

And the one confirming cannot be Jesus! It goes back to its nearest antecedent which is the Prince of the people to come who will destroy the sanctuary- so teh "he" is a Roman ruler!

Sorry but God created grammar as well as language so we can understand what is written. YOu have to defend why god would violate teh most basic rule of Grammar to get this passage to mean what you say it means.

Still waiting for you to show me the fulfilments of Dan.9:24-27

Your grammar is errant.

There is only one individual identified as a prince in the passage.

He is Messiah the Prince, i.e. the Christ. (Daniel 9:25)

He is therefore the antecedent to the prince in Daniel 9:26.

And Christ is not antichrist.

mkgal1 · Oct 22, 2020

nolidad said:
Still waiting for you to show me the fulfilments of Dan.9:24-27

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Jesus finished the transgression - made an end of sin - made atonement for iniquity - and brought in an everlasting righteousness on the Cross (although some deny it). His arrival at just the right time (anointed in 26/27 AD) and fulfillment of prophecy gave authenticity to His status as Messiah (the seal of vision and seal of authenticity of prophets). Daniel 9 is a Messianic prophecy of hope and anticipation. It's fulfilled in Christ Jesus (70th week was 26/27 AD - 34 AD.....the Cross in the middle, 30 AD).

Douggg · Oct 22, 2020

nolidad said:
Now you are telliong god who did or did not commit a transgression of desolation?

nolidad, why do have to throw in comments like that? I was addressing you. And you are making out that because I am disagreeing with you, it is the same as disagreeing with God.

nolidad said:
I agree the transgression and abomination are different- for the abomination is a person.

Dan. 9 Abomination--antichrist
Dan. 11 abomination- Antiochus.

It does not matter how powerful you think he is! If god called him powerful- he was powerful enough!

Daniel 9:27 is end times, Antiochus is not end times.

God did not say Antiochus was powerful, as Antiochus is not the little horn person.

nolidad said:
Wrong again! The little horn of Dan. 8 rises up in the latter time of teh four kingdoms- not from the ten! That is the bible. He does stand against god and He did die without hand- he drowned in the sea!

The text in Daniel 8:23 says in the latter time of one kingdom - not four kingdoms.

nolidad said:
Besides He is the little horn that comes from the four notable ones- you still have yet to answer that!

The four notable ones are the four generals and their four kingdoms - which were four geographical areas of Alexanders kingdom.

The little horn comes up from one of those geographical areas with a strong army, indicated by he waxes strong south and east.

Since Gabriel said the 2300 day transgression of desolation by the little horn vision is time of the end, that location is Greece from where he will come from with his strong army. Whether he personally originates from Greece, I don't know. But he will be the leader of the EU.

nolidad said:
you have not and cannot defend a 2500+year gap between the four generals and the rise of the little horn!

nonlidad, you are not recognizing that there is a 2500 year gap between Daniel 8:22 and Daniel 8:23.

All that is written about the little horn person from Daniel 8:23-26 gives information as to the seven years, and the events that take place within. Including the little horn person's attempt to make war on Jesus.

That the little horn magnifies himself in his heart, and commits the transgression of desolation is when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, has become God.

God has him killed for it in Ezekiel 28:1-10, for magnifying himself in heart, sitting, and saying that he is a god, and more specifically has become God.

Look at the text.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Douggg · Oct 22, 2020

nolidad said:
It is a mystery to me how as a believer you can even say that!

Defend this position biblically and grammatically! or we are through!

First I would like for you to take a lesson in grammar from the bible. Take a look at the sentences. What punctuation mark do they end with? Periods, yes?
Not exclamation marks.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

mkgal1 · Oct 22, 2020

Douggg said:
nolidad, why do have to throw in comments like that? I was addressing you. And you are making out that because I am disagreeing with you, it is the same as disagreeing with God.

I agree that comments like that aren't helpful ("Now you are telling god who did or did not commit a transgression of desolation?"). They're a false appeal to authority....and really shouldn't be used in discussions.

mkgal1 · Oct 22, 2020

nolidad said:
And the one confirming cannot be Jesus! It goes back to its nearest antecedent which is the Prince of the people to come who will destroy the sanctuary- so teh "he" is a Roman ruler!

As JGR already posted....there is only one Prince in Daniel's prophecy and that is Messiah. The text doesn't state "Prince of the people ".....it's the other way around (which is important to the grammar you're wishing to focus on).

Daniel 9:26
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Douggg · Oct 22, 2020

mkgal1 said:
As JGR already posted....there is only one Prince in Daniel's prophecy and that is Messiah. The text doesn't state "Prince of the people ".....it's the other way around (which is important to the grammar you're wishing to focus on).

Daniel 9:26
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Do we read in Daniel 9:26-27...

The Antichrist ? no.
The beast ? no.
The revealed man of sin ? no.
The little horn ? no.

the temple destroyed - 70 ad
the city plowed under - 135 ad

So the prince is not Titus.

Jesus had already come, and cutoff. So it is not Jesus.

Prince who shall come is someone coming to Israel, after those two events took place.

The little horn person waxes strong to the south and east to the promised land. He is the one who is the prince who shall come.

The vision referred to in Daniel 9:21-23, and the finishing of the transgression in Daniel 9:24 is the time of the end transgression of desolation by the little horn person.

mkgal1 · Oct 22, 2020

Douggg said:
Do we read in Daniel 9:26-27...

The Antichrist ? no.
The beast ? no.
The revealed man of sin ? no.
The little horn ? no.

the temple destroyed - 70 ad
the city plowed under - 135 ad

So the prince is not Titus.

Jesus had already come, and cutoff. So it is not Jesus.

Prince who shall come is someone coming to Israel, after those two events took place.

The little horn person waxes strong to the south and east to the promised land. He is the one who is the prince who shall come.

The vision referred to in Daniel 9:21-23, and the finishing of the transgression in Daniel 9:24 is the time of the end transgression of desolation by the little horn person.

What Spurgeon and ( from what I can tell until I see evidence of something different) the whole Church believed of Daniel's prophecy:

Infinite wisdom dictated the hour at which the Messiah should be born, and the moment at which He should be cut off. His advent and His work are the highest point of the purpose of God, the hinge of history, the center of providence, the crowning of the edifice of grace, and therefore peculiar care watched over every detail.

-C. H. Spurgeon

mkgal1 · Oct 22, 2020

Douggg said:
So the prince is not Titus.

Agreed

mkgal1 · Oct 22, 2020

Douggg said:
Jesus had already come, and cutoff. So it is not Jesus.

Not when Daniel was given his vision, Jesus hadn't come and been cut off.

Third Temple Scam in modern Jerusalem?

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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