What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 21, 2020

BobRyan said:
I have always believed that the rapture happens at the second coming 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Matthew 24, and that Jesus takes the saints to heaven at that point to fulfill the John 14:1-4 promise. So that is post-trib and pre-mill.

I make my case as to what I believe on this topic here:

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

Bible Highlighter · Oct 21, 2020

Dave L said:
Answer the question "why did God create?" and you will understand eternal torment for sin.

This thread is merely about sharing what beliefs you have changed over the years. This really is not the place for debating any one individual topic. If you want to learn more about Dualistic Conditional Immortality and or debate it, check out this thread here:

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Dave L · Oct 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
This thread is merely about sharing what beliefs you have changed over the years. This really is not the place for debating any one individual topic. If you want to learn more about Dualistic Conditional Immortality and or debate it, check out this thread here:

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?
What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word? seems you took it off topic...........................

Bible Highlighter · Oct 21, 2020

Norbert L said:
I found out that it's possible to be mistaken more than once on the same subject over the years. From believing that only the 7th day Sabbath was the correct day of worship whereby Sunday worshippers were deceived, to not believing in the Sabbath day at all then back again to my original belief and now as the Messianic forum describes it "MJs and MGs keep Torah for the love of G-d". Basically theological understanding is something that can be a process. Just because a person is mistaken once and adopted a new understanding, doesn't necessarily mean that new understanding is perfectly correct.

I was like this with Pre-Trib. I was originally Pre-Trib, and then became Pre-Wrath for a few days, and then I went back to being Pre-Trib again based on the evidence I seen in Scripture. Well, my Rapture view is that there are two Rapture like events. One is the Pre-Trib Rapture, and the other is a gathering up of the saints by angels in the Middle of the Tribulation after the abomination of desolations take place. As for the Sabbath: I believe one can keep the Sabbath, but I believe it is no longer binding according to Colossians 2:16-17. Yes, I know the standard responses, so there is no use putting them forth here. I just don't buy into the explanations and see how they line with Scripture. But please do not respond here, but start another thread if you want to discuss it. It's not my cup of tea to argue on this particular topic (Especially when Scripture tells me not to argue over the Old Law).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 21, 2020

Dave L said:
What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?
What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word? seems you took it off topic...........................

A person can express their feelings about what they believe here, but debates and or trying to convince others of what you believe in an exhaustive way is not really the point of this thread.

Dave L · Oct 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
A person can express their feelings about what they believe here, but debates and or trying to convince others of what you believe in an exhaustive way is not really the point of this thread.

Who's debating other than you?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 21, 2020

Dave L said:
Who's debating other than you?

Are you okay?
Hope everything is going well for you.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you today.

bling · Oct 21, 2020

My single one-day awakening happened this way:

For many years, I experienced and believed Christianity had no real down side. It was a happy, easy and rewarding life, everyone should jump at.

I use to teach “we (Christians) all sin lots of times and cannot keep from it, but we are constantly being washed by the blood of Christ, so we are without sin in that case.” That was before I met a group of Christians that risked death for themselves and others by sinning, just any sign of not doing what Christ would be doing in that moment. Here is what happened:

I got thrown into (volunteering if needed) with the youth (13-21 age) prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and I was teaching three groups of “Christians”. The first group were guys (going to school it is called) that start out causing trouble and getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the Bible services, carrying their Bible, being nice, eventually being baptized and saying they are Christian. By the time the parole board meets they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released and they were fun to teach. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner knows they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (grandma conversions), but on the first day they are watching raunchy TV, hanging with a loss group, laughing at off colored jokes, were not always talking about Jesus and were not trying to convert others. Their first day in prison the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls that approach these “Christians” saying you are not a Christian (doing everything Christ would do) and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best a gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday, good students, so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially persecuted. This group had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized given up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watched constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating and it could be to death). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over the others, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom. They mentored me even though they were only Christian for a few months, but I was a poor disciple and could not keep up with them.

They really did not talk about “not sinning”, but what better thing they could be doing each and every minute of the day and night. If they did sin, even with their thoughts, they confessed immediately to everyone (all around so the snitches could hear it also), asking for help, prays and ideas on doing better, yet this was not a daily action for everyone.

It is not so much not wanting to sin, but wanting to be a Christ like Christian (witness). This was not done to please the guards because the guards did not like them witnessing to them and the fact others might beat on them caused them added work to break up the beatings.

Maybe we do not see the Spirit working in us because we quench Him or are not in situations of really needing Him. Severe persecution brings out the Spirit in those who have the Spirit.

I really feel some did go days without sinning or should I say: “Some went days doing stuff the Holy Spirit could participate with them for 24 hours.”

One example of what I learned from them was: “You do not even try to keep from sinning (be on the defensive), but try to be involved in the next minute, in doing something really good (constantly on the offensive) then the Holy Spirit can be involved with you in doing and you keep doing good stuff all day and night and pick it up the next day”. You just do not have time to be involved in any sinning.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 21, 2020

bling said:
My single one-day awakening happened this way:

For many years, I experienced and believed Christianity had no real down side. It was a happy, easy and rewarding life, everyone should jump at.

I use to teach “we (Christians) all sin lots of times and cannot keep from it, but we are constantly being washed by the blood of Christ, so we are without sin in that case.” That was before I met a group of Christians that risked death for themselves and others by sinning, just any sign of not doing what Christ would be doing in that moment. Here is what happened:

I got thrown into (volunteering if needed) with the youth (13-21 age) prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and I was teaching three groups of “Christians”. The first group were guys (going to school it is called) that start out causing trouble and getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the Bible services, carrying their Bible, being nice, eventually being baptized and saying they are Christian. By the time the parole board meets they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released and they were fun to teach. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner knows they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (grandma conversions), but on the first day they are watching raunchy TV, hanging with a loss group, laughing at off colored jokes, were not always talking about Jesus and were not trying to convert others. Their first day in prison the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls that approach these “Christians” saying you are not a Christian (doing everything Christ would do) and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best a gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday, good students, so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially persecuted. This group had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized given up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watched constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating and it could be to death). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over the others, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom. They mentored me even though they were only Christian for a few months, but I was a poor disciple and could not keep up with them.

They really did not talk about “not sinning”, but what better thing they could be doing each and every minute of the day and night. If they did sin, even with their thoughts, they confessed immediately to everyone (all around so the snitches could hear it also), asking for help, prays and ideas on doing better, yet this was not a daily action for everyone.

It is not so much not wanting to sin, but wanting to be a Christ like Christian (witness). This was not done to please the guards because the guards did not like them witnessing to them and the fact others might beat on them caused them added work to break up the beatings.

Maybe we do not see the Spirit working in us because we quench Him or are not in situations of really needing Him. Severe persecution brings out the Spirit in those who have the Spirit.

I really feel some did go days without sinning or should I say: “Some went days doing stuff the Holy Spirit could participate with them for 24 hours.”

One example of what I learned from them was: “You do not even try to keep from sinning (be on the defensive), but try to be involved in the next minute, in doing something really good (constantly on the offensive) then the Holy Spirit can be involved with you in doing and you keep doing good stuff all day and night and pick it up the next day”. You just do not have time to be involved in any sinning.

Beautiful testimony. Thank you for sharing.

Scott Husted · Oct 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

Here is my list.

#1. I used to believe we had to follow the Old Testament laws in addition to the New Testament laws. Until one day I discovered verses that the New Covenant began with Christ's death and it ended the Old Covenant. In other words, I believe that believers today are to primarily follow the New Testament commands because we are New Covenant believers.

#2. I used to think that Christians could go to war and or they can respond with violence when attacked. But I have come to later learn that the Scriptures teach Non-Resistance (while believers live out their faith).

#3. I used to believe Romans 3:25 was a verse that proves past sins are forgiven for a believer. But this verse is actually talking about those who sinned while under the Old Covenant.

#4. I used to believe that believers can use the same miraculous gifts that the early church had. Today, I lean more towards Cessationism (even though I leave a little bit of room for mystery that I could be wrong).

#5. I used to believe in Eternal Conscious Torment. I believe I was mistaken on this belief after learning of the truth on Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the view that hell is a very real place of punishment, but the wicked will be destroyed (erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment and after they have been punished for a set amount of time for their sins. Note: At one point in time, I was on the fence on these two beliefs, until Scripture convinced me otherwise.

#6. I used to think believers could be rich by how we generally understand that word. Meaning, I thought we could be millionaires and still be in service to Christ. But I have learned that this is not so. 1 Timothy 6 is a big refutation of that idea.

#7. John 19:14 says the sixth hour is when Pilate mocks Jesus before a crowd. Yet, on the sixth hour, Scripture says darkness came upon the land after he was on the cross (Matthew 27:45). Many have tried to resolve this supposed contradiction in the Bible in many ways. I used to think the sixth hour in John 19:14 was in reference to flash forward in time.
However, I abandoned this idea.

I now believe there two different clocks here. Christ’s clock (or hours); And the normal reckoning of hours within a calendar day.

1. Christ’s 1st hour. This the 1st hour of when Christ is betrayed into the hands of sinners
(Christ’s 1st hour: See Matthew 26:45). This is Christ’s hour because Christ’s says elsewhere, “My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:4).
2. Early the next morning, Jesus is judged by Pilate (a Roman) early in the morning.
3. Jesus is then whipped and mocked.
4. Christ’s 6th hour. This is after six hours have past from the previous night of the 1st hour of when Jesus was betrayed into the hands of sinners (Matthew 26:45): Pilate sets Jesus before a Jewish audience and says to them, “Behold your king!” (Christ’s 6th hour: See John 19:14).
5. Then at 9:00AM (3rd hour of the Day): Jesus is crucified.
6. Darkness within the sky comes upon the land at 12:00PM (6th hour of the Day).
7. Then at 3:00PM (9th hour of the Day) Jesus dies and He becomes our Passover Lamb, Christ is sacrificed for us (man).

#8. I used to think time exists like it does in time travel movies, books, comics, etc.; Meaning, I used to believe God existed in all points in time (past, present, and future). However, I have abandoned this idea based on what Scripture says. I believe God simply exists in the present moment of time like all of us do (However, God can obviously see what is going to happen before it happens, though).

#9. At one point in time, I briefly believed for a few days in the Pre-Wrath model. Today, I hold to the view that there is a potential Pre-Trib Rapture, and another event that is the gathering up of the saints by angels in the Middle of the Tribulation (after the abomination of desolations takes place).

#10. I believed in Once Saved Always Saved very briefly (Note: I think it was like 1 or 2 hours), until I researched the Scriptures later that night and learned that it was false.

#11. I used to believe that Christians had to tithe, until I learned that tithing was Old Covenant and that Paul tells us in Corinthians to give what God has purposed in our heart to give.

#12. I used to think church was going to a big building to worship God amongst a bunch of strangers, or people you could not connect with, but I have come to discover that the church are a people, and the early church gathered in each other's homes, and they were close friends and they knew each other.

For me ... everything.

Junia · Oct 21, 2020

1/ I used to believe we had to keep Saturday Sabbath and tithe

2/ I used to believe Jesus would only accept me if I was perfect or good enough. I have since realised that Jesus takes us as we are the n transforms us through His Holy Spirit

3/ I believed the holy spirit was more like a force than a person.

4/ I believed Jesus could never accept me not forgive me not love me

5/ I used to believe blasphemy of the Holy spirit was a sin that born again Christian could just fall into by saying something negative about the Holy Spirit

6/ I believed that Jesus would punish me for sinning by doing things like burn my house down, kill my pets etc. Then I learned that sin itself brings consequence a either by loss of rewards in heaven or by spoiling our fellowship with Jesus. I

7/ I used to believe that when I confessed my sins I had to wait before I was truly forgiven and had to become good enough or show enough remorse for Jesus to forgive me. Then I read 1John 1:9

8/ I used to believe Go d was always angry at me and hating me. since a young child I believed this. am learning that God is much kinder than that

9/ that God is love and freedom itself. Freedom from sin, from fear, from death. and that He offers life abundant

Junia · Oct 21, 2020

10/ that God is so much !ore merciful and more loving than we give Him credit for

11/ that people.send themselves to Hell. God wills no one should perish and offers mercy to all who receive His son Jesus . People chose their eternal destiny

12/ that it is OK to set boundaries in relationahipa. Any sort of relationship with another person. That we are under God's loving authority first and foremost and He does not will we be doormats but to seek Him and His kingdom first not to be a people pleaser

13/ that because God is always with us, when we enjoy a sunset or a nice cup of coffee or a good book, He enjoys it with us. Her likes spending time with us

Der Alte · Oct 21, 2020

chad kincham said:
...

Two problems with annihilationism doctrine: if there’s no everlasting torment as scripture says, there’s no eternal life for the redeemed, because everlasting and eternal are the same word in the Greek.
And I’d like you to explain how a person that’s been destroyed and ceased to exist, can be said to “have no rest day or night” in the lake of fire, indicating an ongoing and continuing torment.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Shalom.

...

If I may add to what you have said. If a person is destroyed, i.e. ceased to exist, their smoke would soon dissipate and would no longer be "their smoke."
If the wicked will be destroyed Jesus would not have said something which contradicted that i.e. "eternal punishment." And it definitely means punishment which does not end.
…..Greek is now, and for 2000+ years has been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
EOB, footnote pg. 180
……“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
……luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be
……confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
……damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”
= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed/D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please refer to the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation

BobRyan · Oct 21, 2020

Der Alte said:
Two problems with annihilationism doctrine: if there’s no everlasting torment as scripture says, there’s no eternal life for the redeemed, because everlasting and eternal are the same word in the Greek.

1. There is "Everlasting life" in the Bible.
2. There is no "Eternal torment" statement in the Bible.

Rather the punishment of the wicked is forever, is eternal. They never recover from that final end.

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.

Ezek 28:16
“By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Matt 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jamdoc · Oct 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
This thread is not really about debating the differences of what we believe, but it is about sharing what you used to believe was true and now this is not the case.

If you are interested in learning more as to why I believe the Bible teaches Non-Resistance under the New Covenant, you can check out the verses and explanations on common objections (like the one you brought up) in this CF thread here:

Nonresistance as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

The link referring to the verse that I brought up about buying swords doesn't work anymore.

I believe only past sins are forgiven, and that we have to confess and forsake sin in order to have forgiveness and or salvation. Others believe that they are saved solely by believing in the finished work of Christ and or something along those lines and they believe all their present sin and future sins are forgiven by this belief. If you disagree, this is not the place to debate it. Check out this thread here to learn more and or to discuss it.

The Bible teaches only past sins are forgiven us (not future sins).

Well, to put it in line with the topic, I used to believe that Jesus only forgave past sins, and that was another thing I was mad about God with, that you just outright lose your salvation if you sin after being saved which made it like it was best to wait until your death bed to get saved then. But no, I do believe that you're forgiven in advance since you can't sacrifice Jesus more than once.
Hebrews 10 goes into that.
I believe now that you're still forgiven by that same sacrifice even for current and future sins if you seek it. It's like not only are your sins forgiven and separated from you as far as the east is from the west when you're saved, but you're adopted by God. It's a relationship. In fact that's the most important aspect of being saved, you begin a relationship with God. that relationship is 2 way, it involves communication, mutual respect (such as God letting you walk away if you really want to), mutual love, submitting to authority of the Father in the relationship, and, seeking His forgiveness when you do wrong.
1 John is where I get that, even as a Christian, you WILL sin, you don't seek sin and you don't ENJOY sin, but you will sin. So you seek forgiveness from your Father, and your Father, BEING your Father, having established that Relationship with Him, will forgive it, there may involve chastisement as a disciplining action as in Hebrews 12.
I also think sometimes we sin in ways we're not even aware of, sins of omission like God may have provided a witnessing opportunity and you didn't seize it. James 4:17 would say that's a sin, but you might not feel as though you've sinned by not talking to a stranger in public unsolicited.
So would that sin not be forgiven because we didn't take note of a conviction at the time or forgot about it? That's not what I believe. Romans 8:26 shows that the Holy Spirit Himself intercedes for us and while we pray for forgiveness for our sins, the Holy Spirit is being an advocate and maybe filling in the blanks that we can't remember.
Mostly on forgiveness of sins I think the important thing is that you get saved and establish this relationship and that you do work to keep it a good relationship. You don't just walk contrary to your Father deliberately, you don't seek sin, you don't take pleasure in sin, and when you sin, you seek forgiveness and turn away from it, and, for the times our own fallibility doesn't remember every single sin, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.

It's definitely possible to go prodigal and come back. No doubt about it. But was one saved while they were prodigal? Is one saved while they are abiding in sin? This I believe is the ultimate conclusion in Once Saved Always Saved and related beliefs that allows for a believer to think they can commit the sins that the Bible condemns and they do need to confess and forsake those sins, and yet they are still magically saved by having a belief alone on Jesus somehow. In either case, this again is another topic of discussion for another thread.

Check out this thread here if you want to continue to discuss it more.

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

Well, all sins of commission are willful, they all require will for us to do, and Christians do sin. We get tempted and we are not Christ able to withstand all temptation, we screw up, we decide to do that sin, click that racy image, take a second look at that scantily clad woman, get angry and maybe think about something bad happening to whoever we got angry at. But unlike someone who's not saved.. it's met without pleasure, but with immediate remorse "I shouldn't have done that".
There are a few ways that people look at sin as a christian.
1. I have to obey the laws and not sin or I'll lose my salvation, basically works salvation/legalism
2. I'm under grace not the law, hypergrace and lawlessness, which is where OSAS gets its bad rap.
3. It becomes a comparing your good works to bad works, which is also works salvation but do more good than bad.. kinda the catholic way of looking at it.
4. Sanctification is a process it is a good work that the Lord began in you and will continue, even if it takes your entire life (and frankly even then as long as we're in the flesh we won't be perfect)
For a time I believed in the balancing act #3, and then I believed in #2, and now I believe #4. It's a process, and part of that process is failing along the way, and being disciplined for it.
That's another belief that as I matured I was more correct in. I'd believed as I'd been taught when I was younger, that once you believe in Jesus everything was going to go well for you, God would always be for you and not against you.
Now after having read Hebrews 12, That's laughable, and it should have been laughable in the gospels themselves where Jesus outright says we'll endure persecution and hardships, Jesus was never a health and wealth prosperity preacher. But now I correctly see that you get disciplined by God and it can be quite severe. Disabling or even fatal in some cases. 1 Corinthians 5 has a person delivered unto Satan to be killed so that his flesh would die and his soul be saved.
anyway.. OSAS is kind of difficult for me to find a position on both within scripture and my own experience. I feel like I walked away, and there was changes. I took pleasure in sin, I sought sin, after not having been that way for several years when God was a bigger part of my life. Anger at God over some incorrect doctrines I think was the start of that downward spiral. Anger leads to doubt and rebellion. I do feel that in those times looking back, I was not the same person that I was before, nor have been after coming back.
But at the same time, He finally called me back, even though I was stubborn about it and the chastisement was disabling. But He called me back, and I can now see all the bad things that happened as disciplining actions, and trying to call me back.
So it's a really hard situation to feel out for a doctrine. Psalm 89 has some parts where God says He visits transgressions with the rod, and iniquity with stripes, but He won't take away His lovingkindness.
So on the one hand, evidence that I would have lost my salvation is that I changed as a person, took pleasure in sin, sought sin, loved sin, had doubts about God, and even voiced those doubts to people. Like Peter denying Christ over and over until the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows and then feeling absolute shame. When I came back, I felt absolute shame most of all in my claiming to be agnostic and even mocking the faith.

On the other hand evidence I never lost it was.. even though I publicly denied belief in God, I still found myself talking to Him, still seeking Him, even though I was mad at Him and wanted to not be on speaking terms.. you know? If you get in a fight with a loved one you still think about them even though you don't want to return their calls. So how could I truly and honestly have not believed in Him despite WHAT I said to other people when I was by myself I was reaching out to Him and thinking about Him? Secondly He BEAT me with that rod of chastisement. Just a lot of "what are the chances of that happening?" "random" bad luck things happened to me. Which shows me now as I understand Hebrews that God was still dealing with me as a son. A disobedient son.
Now when I think about the times when multiple people did the same thing wrong and I'm the only one who got caught and punished.. now I think, all the guys who "got away with it".. they weren't saved... I wish I still knew how to contact them and get them saved now.
So.. on OSAS.. I don't even know, He called me back so it's not like He just let me go off and die in my sins. Did I lose salvation? Or was it just a wicked backslide and me being the prodigal son but I was always elected for salvation.

Jamdoc · Oct 21, 2020

BobRyan said:
1. There is "Everlasting life" in the Bible.
2. There is no "Eternal torment" statement in the Bible.

Rather the punishment of the wicked is forever, is eternal. They never recover from that final end.

Ezek 28:16
“By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Matt 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 14:11?
Revelation 20:10?

Is for ever and ever not eternal?

BobRyan · Oct 21, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Revelation 14:11?
Revelation 20:10?

Is for ever and ever not eternal?

Yes it is when connected to God.

But the text does not say "eternal torment"

========================

Exodus 21:6
6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

How long is forever in this case, when we are talking about human beings? A human being cannot serve another human being any longer than he lives. A definition begins to arise for how the Bible uses the term. Biblically, forever means "as long as the factors which set the conditions exist."

Psa 9:5
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Psa 145:2
Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.

Is 34:
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.

Rev 20:10

KJV Translation Count — Total: 128x
The KJV translates Strong's G165 in the following manner:
ever (71x),
world (38x),
never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x),
evermore (4x),
age (2x),
eternal (2x),
miscellaneous (5x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

Jamdoc · Oct 21, 2020

BobRyan said:
Yes it is when connected to God.

But the text does not say "eternal torment"

========================

Exodus 21:6
6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

How long is forever in this case, when we are talking about human beings? A human being cannot serve another human being any longer than he lives. A definition begins to arise for how the Bible uses the term. Biblically, forever means "as long as the factors which set the conditions exist."

Psa 9:5
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Psa 145:2
Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.

Is 34:
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.

Rev 20:10

KJV Translation Count — Total: 128x
The KJV translates Strong's G165 in the following manner:
ever (71x),
world (38x),
never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x),
evermore (4x),
age (2x),
eternal (2x),
miscellaneous (5x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

the worlds, universe

period of time, age

how about you read the scriptures instead of just claiming they don't say eternal torment when they clearly do?

Revelation 14:10-11

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

What part of that boldened part doesn't sound like eternal torment? If the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, that sounds like being burned forever and ever. Not to mention no rest day or night. I don't see how that doesn't sound like eternal torture.

Revelation 20:10

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Keep in mind the beast and false prophet had been thrown there by Jesus 1000 years prior. They are STILL there at that point, 1000 years later, suffering, and they would continue to suffer forever.

Der Alte · Oct 21, 2020

BobRyan said:
1. There is "Everlasting life" in the Bible.
2. There is no "Eternal torment" statement in the Bible.
Rather the punishment of the wicked is forever, is eternal. They never recover from that final end.
Ezek 28:16
“By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”
Matt 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Many people claim that "aionios" never means eternal, everlasting etc. I decided to review every occurrence of the word "aionios" in the NT. Please see my new thread this forum titled "Aionios does in fact mean eternal."
αἰώνιος/aionios does in fact mean eternal, everlasting.

BobRyan · Oct 21, 2020

Der Alte said:
Many people claim that "aionios" never means eternal, everlasting etc. .

I think that would be a mistake - especially when it is connected to God.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Regular Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Junior Member

Watching and Praying Always

Watching and Praying Always

Junior Member

Watching and Praying Always

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Junior Member

Similar threads