Are you a Jew under the law or a gentile ?

RickReads

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Lol you think I disagree with you.... Maybe in part.
Please re-read the post. It lays out the context of Romans in reference to Faith.

It`s hard to know what those verses say to you, you didn`t explain them, which is ok. Would have been too much volume if you had.
 
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Strong in Him

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If God's law testifies about Him and if we should live in a way that testifies about Him, then we should we should obey God's law regardless of which group it was given to, but if God's laws do not testify about Him and were instead arbitrarily given to different groups of people, then I would agree that it is not correct to assume that laws given to one group of people must apply to everyone else too.

How are you defining "God's law"?
The instructions in Leviticus to stone to death anyone who does not keep the Sabbath, to refrain from touching women at certain times of the month, to avoid certain food and wear clothing of only one material, do not testify to God.
If you insist that these are God's laws, then they ALL are - even the bit about not trimming your beard and rising to your feet when older people come into the room, or are present, Leviticus 19:32. If the law has to be kept, ALL has to be kept; you can't pick and choose.

Jesus lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so everything in it testifies about him, which is why he said in John 5:39 that the Scriptures testify about him,

No, he said that the Scriptures testify about him because they foretold his birth, his ministry, his betrayal, his death and resurrection. Matthew quotes many Scriptures which pointed to Jesus and showed how Jesus was fulfilling them. No one ever said "the Scriptures testify to Jesus because Leviticus said that a man must not trim his beard, and Jesus has a long beard, so therefore that Scripture must have been about him.
Jesus touched people with skin conditions and a woman who was bleeding, which Scripture said not to do; Jesus healed on the Sabbath - that's why the Pharisees and lawyers didn't accept him.

The actions that the God of Israel has taken and the commands that He has given testify about Him, so to keep Passover is to testify about what is done, while to refuse to keep Passover is to bear false witness against what God has done.

No, Passover was to remind the Israelites that on the night before they were rescued from Egypt they escaped God's final plague - the angel of death Passed Over them because of their obedience in putting lamb's blood on the door of their houses. It was an annual reminder of what God had done for THEM so that they could be set free from slavery and go to the Promised Land.

WE have also been set free from slavery - slavery to sin. We have avoided death also due to the blood of a lamb - the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29.
The death of Jesus on the cross is the new Exodus, and the Last Supper is the new Passover and is what our communion services are based on - "do this in memory of me".

Keeping Passover is not about who you are and whether you happen to have ancestors that can be traced back to Egypt, but rather it is about who the God of Israel is.

Jesus' death on the cross is about who he is.
I'm not in Israel; God is the God and Father or our Lord Jesus Christ.

If a Gentile wants to become a follower of the God of Israel, then they should life in a way that testifies about Him.

I try to.
Jesus said that we are HIS witnesses, Acts of the apostle 1:8, that we should go and teach everything HE taught us, Matthew 28:19, that we should be salt and light in the community/world. He taught that we are to live, and remain, in him, John 15:4-5. His Spirit can, and will, live in us to transform us into his image, 2 Corinthians 3:18. We are to live for him and not be transformed by the world, Romans 12:1-2.

The only way that there has ever been to be made holy is through Jesus,

So food and clothing laws have never been able to make anyone holy? Interesting.

and because we have been made holy we ought to live in a way that testifies about his holiness by not wearing certain clothes and eating unclean animals instead of bearing false witness against his holiness.

Those things don't bear false witness against his holiness - he never taught them.

How does wearing a jumper which is 70% acrylic and 10% polyester tell the world that Jesus is not holy and I am bearing false witness to him?
If I am waking down the street wearing a coat of wool and acrylic and I stab someone in the leg; which action is more likely to tell people that I am wicked/evil/breaking the law? How many people ever say "I'm not accepting Christ as my Saviour - he's eating a bacon sandwich and is a terrible witness"?

Indeed, Jesus shows us his love through his actions and what that looked like was a life lived in complete obedience to God's law,

And you're assuming by that that he also obeyed all the individual commands listed in Leviticus?
Again, he touched people with skin conditions and dead people. There was a woman who was about to be stoned for committing adultery - as the law commanded. Jesus prevented the stoning, refused to condemn her and let her go.

Jesus never sinned because none of those things were ever sinful,

No, they weren't.
Yet they are recorded in Leviticus as God's law. And you say, over and over again, that sin is breaking the law. If you are claiming that everyone who does not keep the law perfectly sins; by that definition, Jesus sinned.

Please explain how it is possible for someone to follow Christ while refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example.

Please show me where Jesus taught, by word and example, that people cannot wear clothes of more than one fabric, that men must never trim their beards, that eating pork and shellfish are not allowed.
As he never taught these things, it is completely possible to follow him yet not do them.


No one in the room challenged Paul's claim to be a Pharisee.

It was the Pharisees, and religious leaders, who were persecuting him, Acts of the Apostles 17:5, Acts of the Apostles 17:13, Galatians 5:11.

In Romans 2:25, Paul said that circumcision indeed has value if you obey the law, so its value is dependent on our obedience to the law.

Well as I can't be circumcised, that doesn't apply to me.
Presumably as Gentile men aren't under the law, they don't need to be circumcised?

Do you think that God can't be trusted to guide us in how we should live when it comes to anything beyond the Ten Commandments?

You need to define what you mean by "the law".

You've already stated that touching people with a skin condition and who were bleeding or dead was never sinful. Yet Leviticus states otherwise and says that people who did that were unclean and needed to perform certain actions to be cleansed.
If you are saying that some things, spoken by God and recorded in Exodus and Leviticus, are not sinful, then you need to explain which they are - and also why some of God's words have to be kept while others can, apparently, be disregarded.

And you say "do you think God cannot trust US"? Those words were not given to US.

Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow,

Jesus didn't say anything at all about keeping the laws written in Leviticus.
He said that if people believe in him they would have eternal life. He said that he could give them test, peace, joy and his life-giving Spirit. Jesus gives us all those things - not the law.
Jesus cleanses us- not the hygiene laws in the OT.
 
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Soyeong

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So you believe in a gospel of grace, anyone who calls on the name of Jesus is saved?

Indeed.

No conditions, no caveats?

No obedience to any particular law is necessary?

Romans 10:10-13 obviously does not exist in isolation, so what do you think it means to call on the name of the Lord?
 
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Soyeong

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How are you defining "God's law"?
The instructions in Leviticus to stone to death anyone who does not keep the Sabbath, to refrain from touching women at certain times of the month, to avoid certain food and wear clothing of only one material, do not testify to God.
If you insist that these are God's laws, then they ALL are - even the bit about not trimming your beard and rising to your feet when older people come into the room, or are present, Leviticus 19:32. If the law has to be kept, ALL has to be kept; you can't pick and choose.

God's law straightforwardly refers to the laws that God has given. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded without departing from it. Israel was given laws in regard to how they should live in the land before they had entered it and not even Jesus followed laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period, so there are legitimate and illegitimate reasons for not following a particular law, and picking and choosing based on what someone wants to follow is an illegitimate reason.

All of God's laws teach us about who God is and that is why God commanded the laws that he did instead of other laws that He could have commanded. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for what it looks like to express His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Roman 7:12) or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law. God's ways reveal His nature, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. For example, God's righteous laws testify about His righteousness and when express God's righteousness through our actions in obedience to His law, we are testifying about God. Keeping the Sabbath holy testifies about God's holiness and that there is a Creator who acts on behalf of His people, while breaking the Sabbath bears false witness against there being a Creator who acts on behalf of His people. Likewise, following God's instructions for how to live as a holy nation testifies about God's holiness. Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so his actions testified about the nature of God and what that looked like was a life lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law.

No, he said that the Scriptures testify about him because they foretold his birth, his ministry, his betrayal, his death and resurrection. Matthew quotes many Scriptures which pointed to Jesus and showed how Jesus was fulfilling them. No one ever said "the Scriptures testify to Jesus because Leviticus said that a man must not trim his beard, and Jesus has a long beard, so therefore that Scripture must have been about him.
Jesus touched people with skin conditions and a woman who was bleeding, which Scripture said not to do; Jesus healed on the Sabbath - that's why the Pharisees and lawyers didn't accept him.

Yes, the Scriptures prophesied about Jesus, but the laws themselves also testify about him. For example, it is not in Christ's nature to commit adultery, theft, theft, murder, or to mar the corners of his beard, so all of these laws are pointing to or communicating information about the nature of who Jesus is and he is the living embodiment of those laws, the personification of God's nature, and the word of God made flesh. It has always been lawful to heal on the Sabbath, so the Pharisees who thought that he was breaking the Sabbath by healing on it were incorrect.

No, Passover was to remind the Israelites that on the night before they were rescued from Egypt they escaped God's final plague - the angel of death Passed Over them because of their obedience in putting lamb's blood on the door of their houses. It was an annual reminder of what God had done for THEM so that they could be set free from slavery and go to the Promised Land.

WE have also been set free from slavery - slavery to sin. We have avoided death also due to the blood of a lamb - the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29.
The death of Jesus on the cross is the new Exodus, and the Last Supper is the new Passover and is what our communion services are based on - "do this in memory of me".[/quote]

If we serve the same God of Israel who frees His people out of slavery, then we should live in a way that testifies about that fact rather than a way that bears false witness against what He has done. The Last Supper is not a new Passover, but rather it was part of Passover.

Jesus' death on the cross is about who he is.
I'm not in Israel; God is the God and Father or our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you believe that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, then you will express that belief through becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from would be denying who he is.

I try to.
Jesus said that we are HIS witnesses, Acts of the apostle 1:8, that we should go and teach everything HE taught us, Matthew 28:19, that we should be salt and light in the community/world. He taught that we are to live, and remain, in him, John 15:4-5. His Spirit can, and will, live in us to transform us into his image, 2 Corinthians 3:18. We are to live for him and not be transformed by the world, Romans 12:1-2.

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so what he taught by example is certainly included as part of everything that he taught us. There is no point in thinking that we should be salt and light while wanting nothing to do with following God's instructions for how to salt and light. In 1 John 2:6, those who abide in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. The way to be transformed into Christ's image is not by refusing to follow his example.

So food and clothing laws have never been able to make anyone holy? Interesting.

No. Holiness is an character trait that is expressed by doing what is holy and God's laws are His instructions for how to express holiness, not for how to become holy. When we have character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God makes us Holy, He is also making us into someone who express His holiness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law, such as by obeying His food and clothing laws.

Those things don't bear false witness against his holiness - he never taught them.

How does wearing a jumper which is 70% acrylic and 10% polyester tell the world that Jesus is not holy and I am bearing false witness to him?
If I am waking down the street wearing a coat of wool and acrylic and I stab someone in the leg; which action is more likely to tell people that I am wicked/evil/breaking the law? How many people ever say "I'm not accepting Christ as my Saviour - he's eating a bacon sandwich and is a terrible witness"?[/quote]

When God commanded to have a holy conduct for He is holy, I do not see how you can think that having a holy conduct is completely unrelated to God being holy. The purpose of God giving His law was to teach us how to walk in His ways, not in the ways of someone else. Jesus is our Savior from our sins and our sins are our transgressions of God's law, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals, so being saved from doing that is part of what the salvation that Jesus brings looks like. It is contradictory for someone to think that they need to accept Jesus as their Savior from living in transgression of God's law while refuse to accept that they need to repent and live in obedience to it through faith.

And you're assuming by that that he also obeyed all the individual commands listed in Leviticus?
Again, he touched people with skin conditions and dead people. There was a woman who was about to be stoned for committing adultery - as the law commanded. Jesus prevented the stoning, refused to condemn her and let her go.

Sin is the transgression of God's law, so to say that Jesus is sinless is to say that he never broke any of them, and to say that broke any of the laws in Leviticus is to say that he sinned and therefore disqualified himself from being our Savior, however, Jesus never did that. John 8:1-12 is an example of Jesus acting in accordance with the Mosaic Law requires. There was no judge to pronounce a sentence (Deuteronomy 19:17-21), there was no man accused (Leviticus 20:10), he didn't have any witnesses to examine (Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 19:15), and he did not have a confession, so if he had condemned her, then he would have acted in violation of the Mosaic Law. Just a few verses later Jesus said that he judged no one (John 8:15) and he also said that he came not to judge (John 12:47), so he did not exercise authority as a magistrate and did not condemn her, but he did recognize her action as sin, and told her to go and sin no more.

No, they weren't.
Yet they are recorded in Leviticus as God's law. And you say, over and over again, that sin is breaking the law. If you are claiming that everyone who does not keep the law perfectly sins; by that definition, Jesus sinned.

Jesus kept the law perfectly, so he never sinned.

Please show me where Jesus taught, by word and example, that people cannot wear clothes of more than one fabric, that men must never trim their beards, that eating pork and shellfish are not allowed.
As he never taught these things, it is completely possible to follow him yet not do them.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel. Furthermore, Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he taught obedience to it both by word and by example, which includes not mixing wool and linen, not marring the corner of our bears, and not eating unclean animals. Someone who refuses to do those things is refusing to repent from their sins and refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example.

It was the Pharisees, and religious leaders, who were persecuting him, Acts of the Apostles 17:5, Acts of the Apostles 17:13, Galatians 5:11.

Not all Pharisees persecuted Jesus and not all of them were hypocrites.

Well as I can't be circumcised, that doesn't apply to me.
Presumably as Gentile men aren't under the law, they don't need to be circumcised?

In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law.

You need to define what you mean by "the law".

You've already stated that touching people with a skin condition and who were bleeding or dead was never sinful. Yet Leviticus states otherwise and says that people who did that were unclean and needed to perform certain actions to be cleansed.
If you are saying that some things, spoken by God and recorded in Exodus and Leviticus, are not sinful, then you need to explain which they are - and also why some of God's words have to be kept while others can, apparently, be disregarded.

And you say "do you think God cannot trust US"? Those words were not given to US.

All sin makes someone unclean, but not everything that makes someone unclean is a sin, such as with the law in regard to temple purity. For example, a woman becomes unclean when she gives birth, but that does not make her guilty of sin, otherwise we would need to avoid having children, but rather it means that she needs to cleanse herself before she can enter the temple.

Jesus didn't say anything at all about keeping the laws written in Leviticus.
He said that if people believe in him they would have eternal life. He said that he could give them test, peace, joy and his life-giving Spirit. Jesus gives us all those things - not the law.
Jesus cleanses us- not the hygiene laws in the OT.

Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father, so he didn't need to repeat anything in order for us to know that we should still obey the Father. In John 14:24, he said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the Father has taught. He followed the Mosaic Law and in Matthew 11:28-30, he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, not inviting them to reject what he followed. By saying that we would find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. This rest for our souls comes from having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live through obeying His law.

Likewise, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). While ritual purity laws are hygienic, they are testifying about holiness, not about hygiene. In Galatians 5:19-22, all of the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. After all, the Mosaic Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit.
 
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Soyeong

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If you think Romans chapter ten, verses eight, nine are quotes from the book of Deuteronomy
then some of your wires may be crossed.

You didn`t quote verse ten because it contradicts your doctrine so badly that you would prefer to leave it out of the conversation.

Romans 10:4-10 does contain quotes from Deuteronomy 30, but the whole passage is not a quote from Deuteronomy 30. I am in complete agreement with Romans 10:10 and I spoke in regard to how the verses that come before it should help us to understand that verse.

I don`t like to use excessive amounts of info but below is reading I strongly recommend to you.

Galations 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the Mosaic Law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law, so again the Mosaic Law is of faith and Paul contrasted the Mosaic Law with works of the law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the Mosaic Law because they are not of faith in God. God is trustworthy, therefore God's law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith the Mosaic Law is to put our faith in the One who gave it, while to deny that it is of faith is to deny that God is trustworthy.


19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Jesus did not go around telling people that the law has ended and that they needed to stop repenting, but rather he told people to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so what he actually did should influence how we understand Galatians says about what he did. Someone who disregarded everything their tutor taught them after they left would be complete missing the whole point of a tutor. Now that faith has come we are under a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His law in accordance with what Jesus taught by word and by example. The law leads us to Christ because everything in it testifies about how to have a relationship with him, but does not lead us to Christ so that we can can reject what he taught and go back to living in sin.


Galatians 4

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, but he was also the father of our faith, so faith and obedience to God's laws goes hand in hand. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, and in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so we need both faith and obedience.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it without even a hint that he considered it to be bondage, but rather he considered he walked in freedom because of it (Psalms 119:45). So if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). So the view that God's law is bondage is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. In Galatians 5:1, it is for freedom that God sets us free, so God did not set the Israelites free from bondage in Egypt for the purpose of putting them into bondage to His law.

However there are two ways that someone can nevertheless end up on bondage: either by refusing to submit to it or by submitting to it apart from faith. In John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. The other form of bondage is someone becoming circumcised and trying to obey works of the law in order to earn the the promise or their justification through their own efforts instead of through faith. The contrasted between Abraham's two sons was that Abraham tried to make the promise come about through his own efforts with the son by bondmaid, while the son by the freewoman come about through faith in the promise. So in Galatians, Paul was not speaking against obedience to God's law through faith, but against those who were trying to earn the promise and their justification through obeying works of the law.
 
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RickReads

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Romans 10:4-10 does contain quotes from Deuteronomy 30, but the whole passage is not a quote from Deuteronomy 30. I am in complete agreement with Romans 10:10 and I spoke in regard to how the verses that come before it should help us to understand that verse.



In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the Mosaic Law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law, so again the Mosaic Law is of faith and Paul contrasted the Mosaic Law with works of the law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the Mosaic Law because they are not of faith in God. God is trustworthy, therefore God's law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith the Mosaic Law is to put our faith in the One who gave it, while to deny that it is of faith is to deny that God is trustworthy.




Jesus did not go around telling people that the law has ended and that they needed to stop repenting, but rather he told people to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so what he actually did should influence how we understand Galatians says about what he did. Someone who disregarded everything their tutor taught them after they left would be complete missing the whole point of a tutor. Now that faith has come we are under a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His law in accordance with what Jesus taught by word and by example. The law leads us to Christ because everything in it testifies about how to have a relationship with him, but does not lead us to Christ so that we can can reject what he taught and go back to living in sin.




In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, but he was also the father of our faith, so faith and obedience to God's laws goes hand in hand. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, and in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so we need both faith and obedience.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it without even a hint that he considered it to be bondage, but rather he considered he walked in freedom because of it (Psalms 119:45). So if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). So the view that God's law is bondage is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. In Galatians 5:1, it is for freedom that God sets us free, so God did not set the Israelites free from bondage in Egypt for the purpose of putting them into bondage to His law.

However there are two ways that someone can nevertheless end up on bondage: either by refusing to submit to it or by submitting to it apart from faith. In John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. The other form of bondage is someone becoming circumcised and trying to obey works of the law in order to earn the the promise or their justification through their own efforts instead of through faith. The contrasted between Abraham's two sons was that Abraham tried to make the promise come about through his own efforts with the son by bondmaid, while the son by the freewoman come about through faith in the promise. So in Galatians, Paul was not speaking against obedience to God's law through faith, but against those who were trying to earn the promise and their justification through obeying works of the law.

You`re a real good dancer, but Paul severs all obligation to the law in the passages I gave you.
 
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Soyeong

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You`re a real good dancer, but Paul severs all obligation to the law in the passages I gave you.

It is contradictory to for Paul to say that our faith upholds the law and to say that he severed all obligation to the law. If you assume that Paul was always speaking about God's law, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand him and make him out to be contradicting himself. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law is of works and a law that our faith upholds, so there is a law that he spoke against and he spoke in favor of. Paul was not an enemy of God, so it doesn't even make sense to interpret him as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, and he didn't have the authority to countermand God even if that was what he was trying to do. Christ taught obedience to the law by word and by example, so if Paul you think that taught against following Christ, then you need to make a decision about whether you are a follower of Christ or a follower of Paul, but he never did that. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine what someone was a false prophet was if they taught against obeying His law, so if even if it were true that Paul tried to sever all obligation to God's law, then that would mean that according to God we should disregard everything he said in favor of obeying God instead. In 2 Peter 3:15-17, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and are carried away by the error of lawless men, so we can be confident that when Paul is correctly understood that he never spoke against obeying God's law.
 
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In is contradictory to for Paul to say that our faith upholds the law and to say that he severed all obligation to the law. If you assume that Paul was always speaking about God's law, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand him and make him out to be contradicting himself. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law is of works and a law that our faith upholds, so there is a law that he spoke against and he spoke in favor of. Paul was not an enemy of God, so it doesn't even make sense to interpret him as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, and he didn't have the authority to countermand God even if that was what he was trying to do. Christ taught obedience to the law by word and by example, so if Paul you think that taught against following Christ, then you need to make a decision about whether you are a follower of Christ or a follower of Paul, but he never did that. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine what someone was a false prophet was if they taught against obeying His law, so if even if it were true that Paul tried to sever all obligation to God's law, then that would mean that according to God we should disregard everything he said in favor of obeying God instead. In 2 Peter 3:15-17, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and are carried away by the error of lawless men, so we can be confident that when Paul is correctly understood that he never spoke against obeying God's law.
In is contradictory to for Paul to say that our faith upholds the law and to say that he severed all obligation to the law. If you assume that Paul was always speaking about God's law, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand him and make him out to be contradicting himself. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law is of works and a law that our faith upholds, so there is a law that he spoke against and he spoke in favor of. Paul was not an enemy of God, so it doesn't even make sense to interpret him as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, and he didn't have the authority to countermand God even if that was what he was trying to do. Christ taught obedience to the law by word and by example, so if Paul you think that taught against following Christ, then you need to make a decision about whether you are a follower of Christ or a follower of Paul, but he never did that. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine what someone was a false prophet was if they taught against obeying His law, so if even if it were true that Paul tried to sever all obligation to God's law, then that would mean that according to God we should disregard everything he said in favor of obeying God instead. In 2 Peter 3:15-17, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and are carried away by the error of lawless men, so we can be confident that when Paul is correctly understood that he never spoke against obeying God's law.

Obedience is just a means to an end, it`s not the reason for not sinning. That is something you don`t seem to get.
 
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Soyeong

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Obedience is just a means to an end, it`s not the reason for not sinning. That is something you don`t seem to get.

Obedience is the way to experientially know God, or in other words, the way to have a relationship with Him. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refused to know Him, because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth. So when we delight in practicing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law, we are coming to experientially know Him, we are expressing our love for who He is, and are testifying about who He is. In 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor know him. In John 3:36, whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God, so again obedience is what it looks like to believe in the Son and is the way to know God and Christ. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's laws are His instructions for how to know Christ.
 
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Obedience is the way to experientially know God, or in other words, the way to have a relationship with Him. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refused to know Him, because in 9:13, they had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth. So when we delight in practicing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law, we are coming to experientially know Him, we are expressing our love for who He is, and are testifying about who He is. In 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor know him. In John 6:40, those who look on the Son and believe in him will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God, and in Matthew 19:17, if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in the Son and to know God. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again God's laws are His instructions for how to know Christ.

Again, I just feel like saying that you don`t see the forest for the trees. The Holy Spirit leads a person away from sinning. It`s about following Christ not obeying Laws. Spiritual matters don`t translate very well to the internet but you are close to making me break into it.
 
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Soyeong

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Again, I just feel like saying that you don`t see the forest for the trees. The Holy Spirit leads a person away from sinning. It`s about following Christ not obeying Laws. Spiritual matters don`t translate very well to the internet but you are close to making me break into it.

Sin is the transgression of God's law, so to say that the Holy Spirit leads a person away from sinning is to say that the Holy Spirit leads us to obey God's law. Christ followed God's law and spent his ministry teaching his followers how to follow it by word and by example, so following God's law is what it looks like to follow Christ.

The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), and God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142). Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so he is the personification of the truth (John 14:6). In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being of corrupted minds and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have carnal minds, who refuse to submit to God’s law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as carnal works that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 7:14, God's law is spiritual.
 
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Sin is the transgression of God's law, so to say that the Holy Spirit leads a person away from sinning is to say that the Holy Spirit leads us to obey God's law. Christ followed God's law and spent his ministry teaching his followers how to follow it by word and by example, so following God's law is what it looks like to follow Christ.

The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), and God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142). Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so he is the personification of the truth (John 14:6). In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being of corrupted minds and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have carnal minds, who refuse to submit to God’s law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as carnal works that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 7:14, God's law is spiritual.

The Holy Spirit leads us to obey what Paul called "the righteousness of the Law". Moses isn`t part of the salvation.

I`m tired of rebuting your posts point by point so from now on I`m just giving Moses the boot :imp:
 
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The Holy Spirit leads us to obey what Paul called "the righteousness of the Law". Moses isn`t part of the salvation.

The righteous requirement of the law is obedience. The Spirit is not in disagreement with what the Father has commanded or with what Jesus taught by word and by example. Sin is the transgression of God's law and our salvation is from sin, so how can obedience to God's law not be part of salvation from transgressing it? Do you think that the concept of salvation from our sins didn't exist until the NT?
 
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RickReads

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The righteous requirement of the law is obedience. The Spirit is not in disagreement with what the Father has commanded or with what Jesus taught by word and by example. Sin is the transgression of God's law and our salvation is from sin, so how can obedience to God's law not be part of salvation from transgressing it? Do you think that the concept of salvation from our sins didn't exist until the NT?

Now you have departed the scriptures and into Hebrew Roots philosophy. I like it better then your constant mixing of it with scriptures. Here is your answer,

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 
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Now you have departed the scriptures and into Hebrew Roots philosophy. I like it better then your constant mixing of it with scriptures. Here is your answer,

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


If you agree that the the Mosaic Law gives us knowledge of sin and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey it. In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous, and I have never once claimed that we need to obey the Mosaic Law in our to earn our justification, so issue that that we need to have the right motivation for doing obeying it. In Romans 3:31, Paul did not want people to conclude from the previous verses that our faith abolishes our need to obey the Mosaic Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so faith needs to be our motivation for obeying it.

If I were to tell you to do something that was for your own good, then your decision to do that would not be earning anything from me for which I would owe you wages, but rather your decision would instead be based on whether or not you had faith in me rightly to guide you. In the same way, doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law has never been about trying to earn our justification through our own efforts, but rather it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience is instead about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live.

There are no works that we can do in order to help earn our justification, so we are justified by faith apart from works, however, faith is always express through doing good works in accordance with God's will, such as with all of the example of faith listed in Hebrews 11, where as disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so Abraham was justified by faith apart from anything that he earned through his obedience, but that same faith was expressed as obedience. You still did not explain how it makes sense for obedience to God's law to not be part of salvation from transgressing it.
 
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If you agree that the the Mosaic Law gives us knowledge of sin and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey it. In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous, and I have never once claimed that we need to obey the Mosaic Law in our to earn our justification, so issue that that we need to have the right motivation for doing obeying it. In Romans 3:31, Paul did not want people to conclude from the previous verses that our faith abolishes our need to obey the Mosaic Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so faith needs to be our motivation for obeying it.

If I were to tell you to do something that was for your own good, then your decision to do that would not be earning anything from me for which I would owe you wages, but rather your decision would instead be based on whether or not you had faith in me rightly to guide you. In the same way, doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law has never been about trying to earn our justification through our own efforts, but rather it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience is instead about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live.

There are no works that we can do in order to help earn our justification, so we are justified by faith apart from works, however, faith is always express through doing good works in accordance with God's will, such as with all of the example of faith listed in Hebrews 11, where as disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so Abraham was justified by faith apart from anything that he earned through his obedience, but that same faith was expressed as obedience. You still did not explain how it makes sense for obedience to God's law to not be part of salvation from transgressing it.

I dislike repeating myself but for your sake I copy and paste a previous post.

I love the Law, loved it enough to invest some of my study time into it. You have to see it for what it is to understand it. It`s a document designed to govern Israel as a theocracy and no one keeps the Law regardless of what they claim. There is no Jerusalem Temple so it isn`t possible to keep it and the curse of the Law will kill all those who depend on it for their righteousness.

Portions of it relate to governing (i.e. rock throwing) , public health ( i.e. taste, touch, handel not), and of course the priesthood. These Laws are all set aside due to the dissolution of Israel in 70AD.

What is left in place is the moral Law which is called the righteousness of the Law by Apostle Paul. Those who are Spirit led will begin keeping this Law and will know these Laws in their heart. Here is a list compiled by Paul. We don`t have to have the list but it`s helpful to know it intellectualy. If you are living out what this passage tells us to do you are in compliance with the moral laws that are seen within the Moses document.

Galatians 5

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
 
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I dislike repeating myself but for your sake I copy and paste a previous post.

I love the Law, loved it enough to invest some of my study time into it. You have to see it for what it is to understand it. It`s a document designed to govern Israel as a theocracy and no one keeps the Law regardless of what they claim. There is no Jerusalem Temple so it isn`t possible to keep it and the curse of the Law will kill all those who depend on it for their righteousness.

Portions of it relate to governing (i.e. rock throwing) , public health ( i.e. taste, touch, handel not), and of course the priesthood. These Laws are all set aside due to the dissolution of Israel in 70AD.

What is left in place is the moral Law which is called the righteousness of the Law by Apostle Paul. Those who are Spirit led will begin keeping this Law and will know these Laws in their heart. Here is a list compiled by Paul. We don`t have to have the list but it`s helpful to know it intellectualy. If you are living out what this passage tells us to do you are in compliance with the moral laws that are seen within the Moses document.

Galatians 5

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Some of God's laws have conditions under which they should be followed, such as the command to keep the 7th day holy, which should only be followed under the condition that it is the 7th day. Likewise, laws in regard to temple practice should only be followed under the condition that there is a temple in which to practice them along with a presiding priesthood. No one comes under a curse for not keeping the 7th day holy during the other 6 days just as no one comes under a curse for not keeping laws in regard to temple practice when there is no temple. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, but they returned because they were nevertheless faithful to obey as much as they could. The curse is for those who refuse to submit to God's law, while the blessing is for those who submit to it, not the other way around

God is dependable, therefore His law is also dependable, and a law that isn't dependable can't come from a God who is dependable, so depend on the law for our righteousness is to depend on the Lawgiver for our righteousness, while to deny that we can depend on the law is to deny that we can depend on the Lawgiver.

The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those better promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37). In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus warned that those who relaxed the least part of the law or taught others to do the same would be called least in the Kingdom while those do them and teach them will be called great in the Kingdom, so to claim that any of God's laws were set aside in 70AD is to disregard his warning. The reference to Colossians 2:21 specifically states that those are according to human precepts and teaching, so they are not in regard to God's law.

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws and there is no example in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral, so the Mosaic Law is the moral Law and the righteousness of the law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.
 
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God's law straightforwardly refers to the laws that God has given.

Including wearing clothes made of only one fabric, not trimming your beard and stoning to death anyone who doesn't keep the Sabbath?

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded without departing from it. Israel was given laws

Israel. Exactly.

not even Jesus followed laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period, so there are legitimate and illegitimate reasons for not following a particular law, and picking and choosing based on what someone wants to follow is an illegitimate reason.

Not obeying a law because it is impossible for your gender is one thing; not obeying a law because you don't like it or think it trivial is another.
Are any of your clothes made from more than one fabric?
Do you "rise in the presence of the aged"? Leviticus 19:32.
How many people have you stoned to death for not keeping the Sabbath?

All of God's laws teach us about who God is

How does the law about not wearing clothes made from different fabrics or not trimming your beard teach us about who God is?

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law,

Not in the case of the above law.

there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others.

Yes, in the OT - they didn't have anything else.
In the NT we have Jesus, the Word of God who lives in us by his Spirit.

In the OT they believed that God lived in the temple - or more accurately, the Holy of Holies which only the high priest could enter.
In the NT we are all God's temple. At the crucifixion the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The temple was later destroyed and has never been rebuilt. The temple is no longer the house of God, and any feasts which were celebrated in the temple can no longer be celebrated there.


Yes, the Scriptures prophesied about Jesus, but the laws themselves also testify about him. For example, it is not in Christ's nature to commit adultery, theft, theft, murder, or to mar the corners of his beard,

The first few, certainly.
You have no idea whether Jesus even had a beard, far less whether it was "not in his nature to mar the corners of it."

Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so his actions testified about the nature of God and what that looked like was a life lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Jesus didn't tell, teach or command anyone to obey the Mosaic law.

If we serve the same God of Israel who frees His people out of slavery, then we should live in a way that testifies about that fact rather than a way that bears false witness against what He has done.

Jesus told us to come to him, Matthew 11:28, believe in him, John 6:40 and live in him, John 15:4-5. We are to be followers of Jesus, teaching everything that Jesus taught, and to be his witnesses.
If you can show me where he said "teach complete obedience to all the laws in Leviticus, just as I have shown you how to obey all the laws in Leviticus"; obviously I'll do that.

If you believe that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, then you will express that belief through becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20),

God's will is that I believe in Jesus and receive eternal life, John 6:40.
The work of God is that I believe in Jesus and receive eternal life, John 6:29.
Jesus came so that we would have life in all its fulness, John 10:10.

The laws written in Leviticus do not give eternal life.
Fulness of life is not gained by saying "I really like that winter coat; it's woollen, it's warm and reasonably priced - oh drat, it's 5% polyester." Or "Well most of my outfit is pure cotton - even though it's not at all warm or practical; maybe the Lord will overlook the fact that my socks/gloves/scarf are nylon".
We don't lose our salvation if there's a small amount of ham in our pie or on our pizza.
If a man trims his beard - always assuming that he even has one - no one's going to say "that proves that your God's not holy."

No. Holiness is an character trait that is expressed by doing what is holy and God's laws are His instructions for how to express holiness, not for how to become holy.

Then why are we told to be holy as God is holy? 1 Thessalonians 4:3

In the OT if people dedicated things to God, those things became holy, Exodus 29:37, Exodus 30:29, Leviticus 6:27, Numbers 4:16, and the Sabbath was described as holy. Things and days cannot have character traits - what made the holy was that they were set aside for God, or dedicated to God for use in his service.

Wearing clothes made from only one fabric does not show God's holiness.

When God commanded to have a holy conduct for He is holy, I do not see how you can think that having a holy conduct is completely unrelated to God being holy. The purpose of God giving His law was to teach us how to walk in His ways, not in the ways of someone else.

He didn't give US his law at Sinai; that's the point.
He gave us Jesus who taught and showed us how to live and what God wanted - and at no point did he say "that means keeping the whole OT law and every rule written in Leviticus".

Jesus kept the law perfectly, so he never sinned.

No, he didn't sin.
But he DID touch a woman who was bleeding, and lepers, and people who were dead - Leviticus says that anyone who does this is unclean and certain rituals should be followed before they were clean again.
No one made Jesus unclean; he made people clean. But according to the hygiene laws in Leviticus, he should not have done that.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is,

Sin existed long before the Mosaic law and is much wider than disobedience to that law.
Adam, Eve and the people of Noah's day did not have the Mosaic law.

so he taught obedience to it both by word and by example, which includes not mixing wool and linen, not marring the corner of our bears, and not eating unclean animals.

Where did Jesus teach those things?
They're not even written into the 10 commandments.

After all, the Mosaic Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit.

Yes, It WAS, for those people at that time.
Jesus didn't teach it.

Supposing God spoke to me and said, "If you are serious about following me you need to give up this hobby/sweet foods/using that language etc etc"?
That would absolutely be God's word, given to me by God's Spirit. That would be instruction, by the Lord, about how I should put him first and remove unhealthy things from my life.
Would that mean you have to do that too? No; you might not eat any sweet foods. You may not have the same hobby as me and any that you do have might be done in moderation so that they don't take over your life.
One Christian may struggle with inappropriate content and be told to give it up. Another may be addicted to church meetings, church traditions or following church rules - which would seem to be good, but these things can get in the way and take first place in someone's life so that they, and not God, become more important. If God tells such a person to give them up, not to do x, or take up y, it doesn't mean that all Christians have to do that whether they have the problem or not. If someone doesn't struggle with inappropriate content they can't give it up - even though God has spoken and commanded someone else to do so.

So just because he said those things to the Israelites, it doesn't mean that hundreds of years later, after Jesus has come and taught us how to live for God, we have to obey all the things that God once said to other people.
 
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HIM

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All that is nice, I`ve seen Christians use this argument more then once. The problem is Romans 3:31 is a reference to the written Law. That`s not my interpretation it`s just the way it is. You look at what scholars say about this verse. I posted a link to a number of sources in one of my early posts to this thread.

Plain as can be, this verse, says faith does not void the written Law.
As was asked. What is the Faith in which Paul Speaks? And how does it establish the Law?

The word, the law is in the heart, mind and mouth.


Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is THROUGH faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

SO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IS THROUGH THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. INTO ALL AND UPON ALL US THAT BELIEVE. PAUL SPOKE EVEN PLAINER IN HIS LETTER TO THE GALATIANS IN 2:20. HE SAID WE ARE DEAD NEVER THE LESS WE LIVE YET NOT US BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN US AND THE LIFE WE NOW LIVE IN THE FLESH WE LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

How does this faith of Christ establish the Law? What is it?

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word) down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word, the law) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy MOUTH, and in thy HEART: that is, THE WORD OF FAITH,WHICH WE PREACH;


Faith is the word through Christ in the heart and mouth.

These verses in Romans are paraphrased from Deut. 30. Let's take a look. We will start in verse 10 to establish context.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


Rom 10:4 For Christ (through which the word, the law, his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law is in the heart, mind and mouth, ) is the end of the law (on tables of stone and parchment because it is in the heart, mind, and mouth) for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Deut 30 and Romans 10:6-8 are saying the same thing as Jeremiah and Heb.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

That which was written on stone and parchment is now on our hearts. Now we do not obey because we have to but because we want to from the heart through Christ. Now the ministry is not of the Letter, parchment and from Tables of Stone. But from the fleshly Tables of the heart through God's Spirit.

2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 
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As was asked. What is the Faith in which Paul Speaks? And how does it establish the Law?

The word, the law is in the heart, mind and mouth.


Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is THROUGH faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

SO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IS THROUGH THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. INTO ALL AND UPON ALL US THAT BELIEVE. PAUL SPOKE EVEN PLAINER IN HIS LETTER TO THE GALATIANS IN 2:20. HE SAID WE ARE DEAD NEVER THE LESS WE LIVE YET NOT US BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN US AND THE LIFE WE NOW LIVE IN THE FLESH WE LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

How does this faith of Christ establish the Law? What is it?

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word) down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word, the law) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy MOUTH, and in thy HEART: that is, THE WORD OF FAITH,WHICH WE PREACH;


Faith is the word through Christ in the heart and mouth.

These verses in Romans are paraphrased from Deut. 30. Let's take a look. We will start in verse 10 to establish context.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


Rom 10:4 For Christ (through which the word, the law, his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law is in the heart, mind and mouth, ) is the end of the law (on tables of stone and parchment because it is in the heart, mind, and mouth) for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Deut 30 and Romans 10:6-8 are saying the same thing as Jeremiah and Heb.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

That which was written on stone and parchment is now on our hearts. Now we do not obey because we have to but because we want to from the heart through Christ. Now the ministry is not of the Letter, parchment and from Tables of Stone. But from the fleshly Tables of the heart through God's Spirit.

2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

I believe Romans 3:31 is talking about this,

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law"

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"

The Law retains it`s power over sinners and false brethren. I believe the 3:31 verse is a contrast
between the Law of faith which frees us from the penalties of breaking the Law (law of sin & death nailed to the cross) & the Law which retains it`s power to destroy the lost.

As seen in the verses above the Law is still going to judge the lost and I believe that is what Paul refers to when he says "establish the law"

For the Spirit led believer there is no law to transgress.

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

with this in mind I don`t think you can connect 3:31 with the law of faith.
Does faith void law is the question, two issues, two different things.
 
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