The Antichrist is Not Jewish or Israeli

Dale · Oct 20, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I thought he was to come out of Rome?

That's a good question. It may be that those who assume that the coming antichrist is a Jew have mired themselves in contradictions.

The association of the Beast of Revelation with Rome is strongest in Revelation 17. In Revelation 17:3, an evil woman is sitting on a beast with seven heads. This has been interpreted to refer to Rome, which according to Roman traditions, grew out of villages on seven hills. Another reason to associate the evil woman with Rome is found in Revelation 17:5, where she is called "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes".

Does the association of the Beast with Rome make sense? Is it helpful in interpreting Revelation, which is highly symbolic?

Many interpret Revelation as inspired by the suffering of Christians in the first century, when there were empire-wide persecutions of Christians. In the first century, there is little doubt that Rome, the Roman Empire, was the enemy. John, the author of Revelation, had every reason not to name Rome as the enemy. He did not want to be named as an enemy of the state, and neither did he want anyone caught with a copy of the Book of Revelation to be accused of being an enemy of the state. So John had every reason to be indirect. Babylon is widely thought to be a disguise for Rome. Babylon was a ruin in John's time, so Babylon isn't literal, the thinking goes.

Martin Luther, John Calvin and other reformers of that era thought that the indirect references to Rome in Revelation pointed at the Roman Catholic Church rather than to the ancient Roman Empire. Historically, the RCC sometimes burned people at the stake as heretics, but this isn't happening today. The RCC doesn't seem to be the greatest enemy of real Christianity in the present.

The suffering of first century Christians does not seem to exhaust the meaning of Revelation. Many things in Revelation make more sense when applied to our time. How do we apply the symbolism of Revelation to our time?

Maybe the seven heads of the Beast in Revelation don't mean the seven hills of Rome. Maybe the seven heads just indicate that the Beast is a fearsome monster, or seven is used for some other reason. The diabolic counterpart of the seven lamps before the Throne of God? Likewise, now that the Roman Empire no longer exists, maybe Babylon doesn't point to Rome but to the dominant power of of this present or future world where Christians are once more being persecuted.

It's a complicated question but I hope this helps.

Oseas · Oct 20, 2020

chad kincham said:
I thought for years that the Antichrist had to be Jewish, because Jesus told the Israelites they reject Him as messiah, but will accept the AC as their messiah - and they would never receive a non Jew, who isn’t from the House of David.

See John 5:43

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

TRUE.

Oseas · Oct 20, 2020

chad kincham said:
The new covenant took effect at Jesus’ death - thus we know that at the end of the 69 weeks in Daniel, when Messiah Jesus was cut off in death, that the new covenant had to be in effect at that time.

Now we await the 70th week, when the son of perdition steps into the third temple, and stops the sacrifices, in the middle of the week.

TRUE.

Oseas · Oct 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

He was cut off "after" the 69 weeks.
If I agree to paint your house "after" 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week or later.

The following is found in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.
It reveals the understanding of that time.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

The 70 Weeks of Daniel
post 385

parousia70 · Oct 20, 2020

Douggg said:
respectfully, I think you have a lot to learn about the subject of the Antichrist.

This is kind of funny, coming from someone who ignores, rejects and omits all the explicit biblical teaching on antichrist, in favor of applying the term to other Biblical personalities in the total and complete absence of any scriptural instruction to do so.

Berean Tim · Oct 20, 2020

Timtofly said:
The False prophet comes out of the sea accoring to John's take of Daniel in Revelation 13. The AC is the image of the FP. Satan is the power broker coming out of the land or standing on the seashore "pulling" the FP into the 21st century.

The False Prophet comes from the land. The Beast comes from the sea. Thats clear from Revelation 13

Douggg · Oct 20, 2020

Randy777 said:
It's more than just anti-christ its also anti God the Father. Reveals himself in Gods temple. The King of the North is not someone from inside Israel. This person has no regard for God or the Holy Land. Which doesn't suggest to me one of Jewish heritage. Its unknown to all but God the background of this future lawlessness one. I just don't think it is one of Jewish heritage.

The person reveals himself to be the man of sin in the middle part of the 7 years.

Originally, he does not come from Israel, but from the nations, the EU. Which is north and west of Israel.

And it is after Gog/Magog, he comes into the middle east on the premise of being peace keeper in the region in the aftermath.

The Jews will think he is the messiah, and the false prophet anoints him to be the King of Israel messiah (but he comes in his own name, i.e. someone not approved by God). That is when he becomes the Antichrist.

Three years, thereabouts, he commits the 2Thessalonians2:3-4 act and claims to be God. The Jews renounce him as their King of Israel, ending his time as the Antichrist.

God has the person killed for the act (Ezekiel 28:1-10). And then in Isaiah 14:18-20 brings him back to life, after being dead a few days. The world sees him sit up in his casket on global TV, and are stunned. And believes that his claim of having achieved God-hood were true. And they worship him.

He is now the beast of Revelation, but no longer the Antichrist, King of Israel.

That is where Daniel 11:36 picks up, at the beginning of the last 42 months.

The ten kings (leaders) of the EU he originated with hand their kingdom, the EU, over to him to be dictator. He is the King of West. King of the Roman Empire of the end times.

Near the end of the 7 years with dwindling resources, and the beast funneling oil to the West, the nations of the other three global quadrants of the world, the north, the south, the east have no other choice but to attack him - where the beast has his throne in Jerusalem, the temple mount, where worshiping of his image, the statue step up on the wings of the temple - the temple courtyard - has been taking place.

The "he", "his" in Daniel 11:40-45 is referring to the King of West, not the King of the North.

First the King of the South attacks the beast. Then the King of the North sees what is happening and attacks the beast from the north. Then news from the east troubles the beast, the Kings of the East are coming to attack the beast, and the Euphrates is dried up, Revelation 16:12. It will be the armies of the West lead by the beast vs the rest of the world.

All nations will have been drawn in the middle east. Zechariah 14:2.

The beast's time will have run out.

The sixth seal event happens, and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God in the third heaven, as the cosmos parts like a curtain. Sickle in hand. It terrifies all the evil men of the world.

And they unite under the beast to try and make war on Jesus to prevent him from executing judgment on them. That's when Jesus descends to earth and ends it all.

Dale · Oct 20, 2020

Timtofly said:
Thank you for the reply. That the pit was opened in the 5th Trumpet does not mean Satan had to open his door, but it does seem to imply coming out of the earth would be understood by those seeing him come out of the open door, they would understand who he was. So in a few verses we see the dragon waiting for the FP to arrive, through the connection of John using Daniel's beast.

The one that produced the first Greek king who also placed an image and introduced an AoD onto the Jewish people via their temple. Also because the FP is mentioned later, but John does not use the term antichrist once in Revelation. Not that John is lacking in knowing an antichrist. His other letters mentions many antichrist.

To a few verses later the beast coming out of the pit. Now in between we see the dragon helps the first beast. What is the reason behind dropping the name dragon after using it twice?

My take is the dragon appears first since the pit was opened first. There are Thunders that John could not reveal. Perhaps the dragon was more involved. Chapter 12 goes back into history, so standing by the seashore does not have to be right before nor right after the woman is protected. Nor do we have to wait till the 42 months to introduce the FP. It seems the 42 months start at the moment the saints are overcome.

Jesus Christ and the saints are told by God to vacate earth, and then God allows Satan 42 months of unrestricted authority. Only two human male witnesses are a thorn in his side. It is then the true deception side of Satan is revealed, and he is allowed to make an image in the likeness of the FP. He is allowed to breath life into that image. He is allowed his own Messiah, the AC. The image is not the FP. Satan is not the FP. Only the first beast from Daniel's prophecy can be the FP.

John never calls the image an Antichrist. It is not even human. It is a false Messiah though. Later it is the beast that gets destroyed with the FP at the battle of Armageddon and thrown into the lake of fire. Then Satan is once more the dragon bound for 1000 years. The beast from out of the earth does still speak with the voice of a dragon. The beast may have a human form with two horns like a lamb. The form he used to deceive the nations for the last 2500 years.

Tim: "Jesus Christ and the saints are told by God to vacate earth ..."

I assume that referring to the "rapture." I don't believe in Rapture separate from the Second Coming.

Tim: "Also because the FP is mentioned later, but John does not use the term antichrist once in Revelation. Not that John is lacking in knowing an antichrist. His other letters mentions many antichrist."

You are assuming that the John who wrote the Epistles of John is the same person as John who wrote Revelation, which isn't that likely.

It's not surprising that "antichrist" doesn't appear in Revelation because "Christ" is used only occasionally. "Christ" appears only in the introduction and in Revelation 20 in connection with the thousand year reign. "Jesus" appears more often but seems to always be mentioned in connection with testimony and faithfulness. More often, John disguises mention of our Savior by calling Him "the Lamb." Lamb is mentioned 31 times in Revelation.

John minimizes the use of "Christ" so likewise he avoids "antichrist." Instead, he calls the Antichrist "the Beast" or "the first Beast."

Berean Tim · Oct 20, 2020

Dale said:
That's a good question. It may be that those who assume that the coming antichrist is a Jew have mired themselves in contradictions.

The association of the Beast of Revelation with Rome is strongest in Revelation 17. In Revelation 17:3, an evil woman is sitting on a beast with seven heads. This has been interpreted to refer to Rome, which according to Roman traditions, grew out of villages on seven hills. Another reason to associate the evil woman with Rome is found in Revelation 17:5, where she is called "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes".

Does the association of the Beast with Rome make sense? Is it helpful in interpreting Revelation, which is highly symbolic?

Many interpret Revelation as inspired by the suffering of Christians in the first century, when there were empire-wide persecutions of Christians. In the first century, there is little doubt that Rome, the Roman Empire, was the enemy. John, the author of Revelation, had every reason not to name Rome as the enemy. He did not want to be named as an enemy of the state, and neither did he want anyone caught with a copy of the Book of Revelation to be accused of being an enemy of the state. So John had every reason to be indirect. Babylon is widely thought to be a disguise for Rome. Babylon was a ruin in John's time, so Babylon isn't literal, the thinking goes.

Martin Luther, John Calvin and other reformers of that era thought that the indirect references to Rome in Revelation pointed at the Roman Catholic Church rather than to the ancient Roman Empire. Historically, the RCC sometimes burned people at the stake as heretics, but this isn't happening today. The RCC doesn't seem to be the greatest enemy of real Christianity in the present.

The suffering of first century Christians does not seem to exhaust the meaning of Revelation. Many things in Revelation make more sense when applied to our time. How do we apply the symbolism of Revelation to our time?

Maybe the seven heads of the Beast in Revelation don't mean the seven hills of Rome. Maybe the seven heads just indicate that the Beast is a fearsome monster, or seven is used for some other reason. The diabolic counterpart of the seven lamps before the Throne of God? Likewise, now that the Roman Empire no longer exists, maybe Babylon doesn't point to Rome but to the dominant power of of this present or future world where Christians are once more being persecuted.

It's a complicated question but I hope this helps.

Please note the greek word the KJV translates as "hills" is "oros". Its used 64 times in the NT, 62 times it's translated mountain or mount. I think the KJV translators were a bit bias against the RCC.
The NIV follows the KJV, but most translations use "Mountains"

chad kincham · Oct 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

It’s a fact that Jesus was cut off at the end of 69 weeks, leaving the week when He will establish righteousness on the earth, to be done during the remaining week, the 70th week.

If I say I’m coming back home AFTER a weeks vacation, it means at the END of that week, I’m coming home.

chad kincham · Oct 20, 2020

1an said:
Hello, just to say, I see Rome as a military nation with their own national god rather than the place. Just my view. We know the Bible uses 'types'.

Just to add, I have been here since 2011 but got embroiled with some anti-Trinitarians on another forum, so when I came back after several years, still using the same screen name, they put me down as a newbie, saying there had been some major changes to the forum. The people I knew and loved aren't here anymore sadly.

I recommend watching what Walid Shoebat, the ex Muslim, born in Bethlehem, now a Christian, has to say about end time prophecy, when looked at with a middle eastern perspective, instead of a western mindset.
He’s convinced me that the Rome isn’t the harlot, for one thing.
Here’s a video of Walid Shoebat:

chad kincham · Oct 20, 2020

Oseas said:
The MAN OF SIN or SON OF PERDITION has nothing to do with a military sistem, but a religious system. He is a former Cherub, he is a profound Torah connoisseur or wiser, as a Rabbi.

The AC is fully human, but will be possessed by the fallen archangel Lucifer, at the middle of the tribulation.

That’s why the tribulation becomes the great tribulation.

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2020

chad kincham said:
It’s a fact that Jesus was cut off at the end of 69 weeks, leaving the week when He will establish righteousness on the earth, to be done during the remaining week, the 70th week.

If I say I’m coming back home AFTER a weeks vacation, it means at the END of that week, I’m coming home.

If you were correct that would mean He rose from the dead during the 70th week, and spent forty days with His disciples during the 70th week before ascending to heaven.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week during the first century.

.

Timtofly · Oct 20, 2020

Berean Tim said:
The False Prophet comes from the land. The Beast comes from the sea. Thats clear from Revelation 13

Satan is the beast from the land. The only human is the FP from out of the days of Daniel's beast, culminating in one important human, and the only one that Satan is going to use.

Timtofly · Oct 20, 2020

Dale said:
I assume that referring to the "rapture." I don't believe in Rapture separate from the Second Coming.

I do not either. They both happen at the 6th seal. There is still a couple of years between the 6th seal and the Lamb bringing in the final harvest personally, before the Lamb, the 144K, and the harvest of wheat, and the sheep have to evacuate. But some of this time is sealed up in the time of the 7 thunders, that God told John not to put into the Revelation. The church is not going to be on earth after the 6th seal.

Dale · Oct 20, 2020

Douggg said:
Here is a link to a Jewish countermissionary site MessiahTruth

Doug,

What you are pointing me to are discussions on a message board. If this were Jewish doctrine, you would think it would be in the Talmud. You would think the rabbis would be saying it.

I checked the Jewish Encyclopedia. There is no mention of the messiah anointing anyone, or anointing anyone as king, in the article on messiah. One of the few things Jewish thinkers agree on is that the messiah is a king. The messiah is the king who brings peace, or safety and peace.

Likewise, the article on Anointing doesn't mention the messiah.

I urge you to rethink your belief that the antichrist will be a Jewish king.

Links
MESSIAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com
ANOINTING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Dale · Oct 20, 2020

Douggg said:
Bilton65, welcome to the eschatology forum. respectfully, I think you have a lot to learn about the subject of the Antichrist.
View attachment 286584

Putting something in a chart doesn't make it true.

Douggg · Oct 20, 2020

Dale said:
I checked the Jewish Encyclopedia. There is no mention of the messiah anointing anyone, or anointing anyone as king, in the article on messiah. One of the few things Jewish thinkers agree on is that the messiah is a king. The messiah is the king who brings peace, or safety and peace.

The messiah does not do the anointing. A known prophet, in Jewish thought is supposed to anoint the messiah to be the King of Israel. It is similar to placing a crown on his head.

The messiah in Jewish belief is not just "a" king, but a specific King. King of Israel.

From Judaism 101 Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times.

The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

Douggg · Oct 20, 2020

Dale said:
Putting something in a chart doesn't make it true.

No, it doesn't.

Oseas · Oct 20, 2020

chad kincham said:
The AC is fully human, but will be possessed by the fallen archangel Lucifer, at the middle of the tribulation.

Yes, as you know, the MAN of sin, son of perdition, a former Cherub, a former ruler of the Garden of Eden, he will manifest himself as God, and he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God, as said Paul the Apostle. 2Thes.2:v.4.

verses 9-12
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.(believed not in JESUS, but they will believe in a false messiah, AN IMPOSTOR-John 5:v.43).

chad kincham said:
That’s why the tribulation becomes the great tribulation.

Daniel 12:v.1-3

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up (Revelation 12:v.7-17), the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (time of Apocalypse): and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (there will be resurrection in this time - the Word is God), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the STARS for ever and ever.

1Thessalonians 4v.13-16

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel -Michael-, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: -->There will be resurrection henceforth, under the seventh trumpet sounded by Michael-Revelation 11:v.15-18 and Luke 20:v.35-36.

Acts 3:v.18-24

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

In Christ JESUS

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