Please give me your understanding of John 5:24-25. Please break it down specifically for me and show me how it can possibly be referring to the resurrection of believers like what 1 Cor 15:20-23, 50-54 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 talk about.
John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
How can a time that is coming and has now come be referring to the future bodily resurrection of believers?
As I pointed out before, I believe John 5:24-25 clearly should be understood in the same sense as this passage:
You stress the has now come, I stress the coming. Admittedly, I interpret John 5 that way BECAUSE of Revelation 20. Revelation gives 2 resurrections where most the bible has seemed to refer to only a single resurrection outside of isolated single people getting resurrections or Jesus. But Revelation 7 has a great multitude in heaven, not described as souls as in Revelation 6:9-11, so I take that to mean they are in bodies, combined with my interpretation of Revelation 6:12-17 matching up with Matthew 24:29-31 where the elect are gathered. I see that as the resurrection of believers, before the trumpets. With Revelation 20 giving the concept of 2 resurrections, I read John 5 and while on first reading John you read that passage and think Jesus is just being redundant, but.. one resurrection is for those who hear His voice, that is believers... and then a second resurrection where ALL who are in the grave are resurrected.
In the first resurrection Jesus says they're given life, and no threat of condemnation is given with that first grouping. Similarly in Revelation 20, those who take part in the first resurrection, are not under threat of the 2nd death. They're redeemed.
The second resurrection, there is a judgement that Jesus warns about, some to life, some to damnation.
So.. where I fall on this, is the rapture, happens, nobody who's raptured is judged with those who stand before the white throne of Judgement, they've already been declared not guilty, forgiven by the Lord Jesus Christ. The second death has no power over them, it's not an threat hanging over their head.
After the Millennium, second resurrection, some of those who are resurrected then will have believed, so they go to the resurrection of life. The rest, to the resurrection of damnation.
You seem to recognize that Jesus IS describing 2 different resurrections, you just consider the first one having taken place when Jesus resurrected, so we were resurrected even before we were born or died. Which is.. sketchy to me. I am seeing 2 BODILY resurrections.
Honestly, all that is quite confusing and not something I see taught in scripture at all.
You say raptured believers get rewarded at the bema seat and that is a different connotation than the throne of judgment with people being damned, but instead is a picture of people being rewarded.
Are you sure you read all of Matthew 25:31-46?
I didn't quote the whole thing again just to save some space. I included the relevant verses to the point I'm about to make.
Can you see here that "the sheep" refer to "the righteous" and that they will inherit "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world"? That seems like a reward to me. How is this any different than "the bema seat"? There is no basis at all for thinking they are different judgments.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
How is that different than what is described in Matt 25:31-46? The things people get judged on "while in the body" are the things Jesus talks about in Matt 25:31-46 such as feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, giving people shelter and clothes, helping those who are sick and visiting those who are in prison. There is no basis at all for thinking 2 Cor 5:10 and Matt 25:31-46 are different judgments.
Paul and John both talk about more rewards than just eternal life, they term them as crowns, and what they actually are whether physical jewelry or not is not important, but the Lord has gifts He wants to give us aside from just living. When Paul talked about those rewards he was talking about a bema seat which is a platform where you hand out laurels for athletic competitions, it's all reward, all positive, not judgement. The great white throne after the 2nd resurrection, is judgement, and some people will go to life others to the 2nd death. Dunno how you can't see those as being different circumstances, one is a medal ceremony and the olympics, the other is a trial with the death penalty sentence on the line. The only negative at the bema seat that Paul talked about, was that you might have been saved, but as by fire, basically getting nothing but your life, you get eternal life, but God doesn't have any rewards for you because you wasted your life. 1 Corinthians 3:9-15 goes into this. Even Jesus talked about rewards and treasures in heaven, and He doesn't just mean eternal life.
Scripture repeatedly speaks of one judgment day, not two. Just like it teaches that there is one day when all the dead will be raised, not two.
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
Notice here that it says God has set a day (not two days) when the whole world will be judged by the man God has appointed, which is obviously Jesus Christ. That is a 24 hour day. It is the same day referenced in 2 Cor 5:10 and Matt 25:31-46 (and other passages like Romans 14:10-12 and Rev 20:11-15).
Again, interpreting something that will probably take time, as happening instantly. There will be billions of people and a Just God is going to go through ALL the charges against you. A person doesn't go to hell just because they didn't believe on Christ. They go to Hell for their sins. So.. Judgement of people who ARE in the book of life is simple of course. They believed on Christ, their sins are not brought up. If they didn't believe on Christ, well, now they're judged by their sins, and every single one will be laid on them, over the course of a lifetime, it may take a lifetime to go through all of them. It takes time. Human judges have to tell you what you're being charged of before they just declare a sentence on you, God's more just than that, do you really think a person will not even be told exactly what they did wrong on every count before they're sentenced? God may be able to make a judgement instantly, but we're still finite, and can't process the charges and verdicts and judgements instantly.
and the bema seat Paul talked about, was not a trial for condemnation. Does 1 Corinthians 3:15 sound like they go to hell to you? Not to me, sounds like they go into eternal life with nothing but the white robe.
When are any of Daniel's weeks "given interchangeably with another length of time? They're not. Yet, you (and most of the rest of us) still interpret them as being 7 years.
I believe the 70th week was fulfilled by Christ confirming the new covenant with His shed blood. I think we could easily derail this thread by talking about that in depth here, so I'm not going to do that.
The 70 weeks are such an important prophecy and yet they are not repeated anywhere in the bible, so you are correct in that they are never shown to be interchangeable with another length of time. But, because Christ was born when He was (note the magi from the east were LOOKING for the Messiah, they knew WHEN He would be born, based on Daniel's prophecy giving the timing), We know that 69 weeks have happened, and Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 69th week. That is a conversion of time that we can only know in hindsight.
I see it as post-trib (pre-final wrath?), but we don't understand the trib (as a 7 year time period) the way you do.
I think you should give the timing of the thousand years more thought because if it is not after Christ returns, as amils believe, then that would change everything about, not only how you interpret Revelation 20, but the rest of the book as well.
Nope. Give up on that. I'm going to understand it the way Paul and Peter described it which is that it will come down globally on the day Christ returns.
What do you mean by that?
Now THAT is figurative. What Paul and Peter wrote about is not.
How are the 7 last plagues figurative? How are they not the wrath of God when John says they are?
The seals are not, because as I keep pointing out, after 5 seals the souls of the martyrs cry out as to how long they have to wait for God to avenge them. It's after the 6th seal that wrath begins, and after the 7th seal that the trumpet judgements begin.
I see 2 main visions where there's the repetitions of tribulation, the Lord coming in the clouds, 144,000 sealed Israelites, wrath of God, and then final judgement. Because ALL of those elements are repeated, is how I can be sure, that they are 2 versions of the same events.
But the Day of the Lord? That's figurative. I've given you multiple ways that that same time is phrased. Hour of His judgement, year of recompences, year of redemption, times of restitution
I mean, Isaiah 34:8 Isaiah 63:4, I don't know how it can possibly be more clear that it's a figure of speech than those 2 verses where God refers to it as a day and a year interchangeably in the same verse???
Is God unable to protect us from His wrath while we're on the earth? I'm speaking in terms of the partial wrath that you see coming before the final wrath of fire coming down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-13). Obviously, it wouldn't make sense for Him to leave us here during the final wrath of fire coming down upon the whole earth.
144,000 are protected, and a great multitude are in Heaven, Revelation 7. Explain that if we're left on earth subject to the trumpets and vials? Not to mention just prior after the 6th seal, events happened that parallel Matthew 24.
Cosmological signs happen that signify the day of the Lord since the Old Testament, suddenly great multitude in heaven.
That sounds like the rapture to me.
.. and that's before the 7th seal, and after the 7th seal, the angels are given the trumpets to deal out God's wrath.
are you saying ONLY 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are saved? Because that's all who's protected while still on earth.
That is correct. I don't see why that is a problem.
It's not really a problem other than you may be pleasantly surprised to be taken out of harm's way earlier than you expected. But it is kind of sad that you see yourself having to live through what sounds like asteroid impacts 60 pound hailstones, scorching heat, and demons everywhere. It's going to be bad enough having to endure tribulation at the hands of men than to have God pouring His wrath all around you.
The number of times it's repeated means nothing. The beast is mentioned 35 times. Does that make it literal? But, I'm glad you're open to the idea that it's not literal, at least.
It makes it more significant when something in the bible is stressed or rerpeated. To me that says "important detail" Like time, times and half a time/1290 days/42 months
That's great! Something we can agree on. Nothing makes me more sad than when I see people who think He is just waiting around in heaven to become our King.
He rules but He is also waiting, that is what it means being longsuffering. He's allowing for the mystery of iniquity to continue, because it means more people will be saved.
I believe the following indicates that He will deliver His kingdom (which you agree He rules over now) to the Father when He comes:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
When do you believe the end of the age will come? I believe it will be when Christ comes (Matt 24:3).
It is when He returns, but as I keep pointing out, I don't believe in an instantaneous event but rather a series of events all connected to Jesus returning. The second coming begins with Jesus in the clouds. all events afterward are still the second coming.
Was His first coming just His birth?
Amils believe that this could be the time of Satan's little season because of the increase in wickedness. We see Satan's little season as being related to what Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2 because it speaks of a time of increase wickedness because of the restraint on wickedness being lifted and it is in accordance with the works of Satan (2 Thess 2:7-9).
That sounds like a preterist view that you believe the 70th week, antichrist, and all that have already happened. But Jesus gave those signs of the great tribulation and abomination of desolation as happening right before His return, not 2000 years before His return.
To me, Satan's binding does not have to do with him not being able to deceive or do anything at all but rather has to do with him being unable to keep the world in spiritual darkness the way he did before Christ came. Please read this:
We should not underestimate the impact that Christ's death and resurrection had on Satan. Before Christ came to break the power of the devil (Satan), he was able to keep a vast majority of the world "in slavery by their fear of death". Once Christ came and defeated Satan and rose again and especially once the power of the Holy Spirit came upon Christ's people on the day of Pentecost, Satan was powerless to stop the spread of the gospel into the entire world to shed light into the darkness. That is what amils believe the binding of Satan is all about.
But, you and I both know that Paul taught in 2 Thess 2 that a time is coming when wickedness will no longer be restrained and the gospel will no longer be freely preached. There will be a falling away (2 Thess 2:3) that occurs and an increase of people rejecting the gospel. Much like we are seeing today in America. I believe it's possible that Satan's little season has already begun.
No, it's "deceive the nations no more" not "deceive the nations, but less so that the gospel can be spread" Too much false religion has Satan's fingerprints all over it. Not to mention amillennialists treat it as if nobody could believe the truth prior to Jesus' ascension but many gentiles feared the Holy One of Israel in the Old Testament. Even Nebuchadnezzar did eventually. The Magi came LOOKING for the Messiah and worshiped Him. The first people outside of His immediate earthly family to know the Son of God were gentiles.
So being able to evangelize, and have people believe, doesn't tell me that Satan is not running around freely deceiving the nations anymore.
There are 1.6 billion muslims after all and it's near impossible to preach the gospel in nations where there's a majority of muslims, and muslims conquered a gooc chunk of the world within the first 1000 years after Christ ascended, so you can't even claim that Satan was bound for 1000 years but got set loose only recently. Satan has always been prowling around freely, he'll be beaten the tar out of and bound later though.
Seeing 2 different future comings of Christ (one where He comes part way down from heaven and we're gathered to Him and another one at a different time where He comes all the way to earth) definitely precludes amillennialism.
That's too bad because, as I said earlier, if you were to realize that the thousand years do not occur after His second coming then that would change the way you not only see Revelation 20, but the rest of the book (and other scripture) as well.
No, it's not possible to be pretrib and amil because we believe the "rapture" occurs on the same day Christ returns to take vengeance on His enemies. Which is exactly what Paul taught here:
How can 2 Thess 1:10 not be referring to the same event as 1 Thess 4:13-18? I don't believe that makes any sense.
It's referring to the second coming, you are correct, but as the first coming had multiple events over more than 30 years, the second coming has multiple events over time as well. There's all sorts of events that involve fire after Jesus comes in the clouds, but we're given times of at least 5 months, I wouldn't be surprised if like Noah, the destruction lasted over a year.
the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences?
I don't think so for similar reasons as it's not possible to be pre-trib amil. We believe that Christ will only descend from heaven once (not twice as pre-trib and pre-wrath believes) and that "the rapture" and the global destruction of the wicked will occur on the same 24 hour day.
and that's sad that you see specific time periods as figurative but are so dead set on a single 24 hour period when I keep drilling you with Isaiah 34:8.
Can you address Isaiah 34:8 and Isaiah 63:4 while still being fixated on a single 24 hour day?
