Calvinist limited love for mankind

All Glory To God said:

Your God is too small. Either he must become greater or your ego smaller for you to come to know the true sovereign God.

Click to expand...

Besides, God can still be sovereign even amongst our free will choice to either choose Him, or not choose Him in this life. God gets the glory because He already knows what men will do before they do it. God gets the glory because He provided a way of escape that without Him, they could not be saved.

True Counterphobia said:

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Click to expand...

I believe Proverbs 15:1 is in regards to speaking about the individual, and it is not in reference to rebuking wrong beliefs.

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3).

Titus 2:15 says, “These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority...”

But we also have to consider that our Lord and even the apostle Paul used some harsh words towards certain individuals. So there is a time and place and or season for everything under the sun. I believe we are to generally be loving and good in our words towards the person, but sometimes folks do need a cold splash of water to wake them up, too. Jesus called people snakes, etc.

You said:

Consider your sanctification for a moment. I do not say this to judge you, but to provoke you to righteousness.

Click to expand...

I don't believe Calvinism promotes true righteous living because it teaches Once Saved Always Saved. This means that even if a believer slips into doing a certain sin, they can still be saved while they have fallen into that sin. They cannot lose salvation by their sin, which means a believer does not really need to worry about Sanctification. John MacArthur (a Calvinist) teaches that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. This is why the family of Kenneth Nally sued his church. For their son (Kenneth Nally) committed suicide as a part of the influence of their teachings. John MacArthur also believes that the “sin unto death” is any sin that a believer commits and God takes them home early (by physical death) because they are no longer useful on this Earth. Meaning, a believer can sin and still be saved (Thereby nullifying any concept of true Sanctification).

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe Proverbs 15:1 is in regards to speaking about the individual, and it is not in reference to rebuking wrong beliefs.

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” (Jude 1:3).

Titus 2:15 says, “These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority...”



I don't believe Calvinism promotes true righteous living because it teaches Once Saved Always Saved. This means that even if a believer slips into doing a certain sin, they can still be saved while they have fallen into that sin. They cannot lose salvation by their sin, which means a believer does not really need to worry about Sanctification. John MacArthur (a Calvinist) teaches that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. This is why the family of Kenneth Nally sued his church. For their son (Kenneth Nally) committed suicide as a part of the influence of their teachings. John MacArthur also believes that the “sin unto death” is any sin that a believer commits and God takes them home early (by physical death) because they are no longer useful on this Earth. Meaning, a believer can sin and still be saved.

Click to expand...

I have tired to correct your poor conduct, but you insist on your opinion to which much painstaking time and effort has gone into thinking about these topics, which, as far as I can see, are not resolved. It is ill fitting for you to assert that you have found the correct path when your conduct is less than graceful to your fellow brother in Christ. This "argument" is secondary to me. I don't care about what particular theology people have over their conduct as Christians who are to live as a light to the world and not simply as the world.

The reason I point this out is because you assume there are no arguments coming from the other side of the coin and there most certainly is. I come from a Non-Denom background, as you can see from my info. So it is not as though I have ignored the discussions on each side of the road. As such, I have struggled with the preponderance of the idea of Free Will vs. God's Sovereignty. As I stated, my view isn't exactly synonymous with Calvinism explicitly. Now, I can very well go toe to toe with you quoting all the passages where it says God predestines those for salvation and point out how you are taking verses out of context, but then at that point we are just talking past each other and not to each other.

I point to you these verses:

1 Peter 3:13-17 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For lit is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.

Now, if you are not being persecuted at this time and in fact your brother in Christ is wanting to discuss things with you in a civil manner, how do you aim to change my mind if you share "the hope that is within you" with an aggressive edge, not with gentleness and respect? I could speak of the mystery of the gentiles at this time and share how the gentiles were to live in accordance to a holy way of life - a radical change, but I think this is beyond the point at hand.

I would far rather we DISCUSS rather than DEBATE, but if you are just looking for a debate count me out of this conversation.

Bible Highlighter said:

Right, and then why did God argue with Cain about doing good vs. doing evil?

For Genesis 4:7 says,
“If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”

Click to expand...

God offering redemption since Adam!

But with this verse are you rejecting What Paul wrote in the new TEstament? that we in our human nnature can do nothing good?

Rom. 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I think he Bible is clear that at least in the New TEstament (for there is hypotheses about the progression of the sin nature up to the flood etc.) that man is sold unto sin as it says in rom. 6 and 7.

If we can do no good in the flesh, how can we turn to God? All we have is the flesh nature or human nature.

True Counterphobia said:

I have tired to correct your poor conduct,

Click to expand...

Please point out my exact words of where you think I poorly conducted myself towards others personally, and I will apologize. Did I slander someone? Did I speak ill of their behavior? Did I single out and attack a person personally here?

Please understand that if I am speaking against what I believe is a wrong belief, I do not view that as poor conduct but I view that as rebuking a wrong belief. For you may not see Calvinism as wrong, but I see it as an attack upon the good character of our God. For example: Do you believe that there are certain wrong beliefs should be corrected harshly? There are some Christians in the past on this forum who do not think inappropriate content is a problem or a sin. Should we not rebuke their false belief?

Bible Highlighter said:

Please point out my exact words of where you think I poorly conducted myself towards others personally, and I will apologize. Did I slander someone? Did I speak ill of their behavior? Did I attack a person personally here. Please understand that if I am speaking against a wrong belief, I do not view that as poor conduct but as rebuking a wrong belief. For you may not see Calvinism as wrong, but I see it as an attack upon the good character of our God.

Click to expand...

Please read my whole post.

True Counterphobia said:

Please read my whole post.

Click to expand...

I did. Please show me what words in any of my posts that you believe I have acted poorly. Again, I do not see correcting what I believe to be a wrong belief as acting poorly. There are some Christians in the past on this forum who do not think inappropriate content is a problem or a sin. Should we not rebuke their false belief? Would it be acting in poor behavior by showing them the error of their belief?

Bible Highlighter said:

Such a statement does not erase the ridiculousness of Calvinism. Again, do you believe that it is loving of God to create the majority of mankind just so that their only eternal destiny is to suffer in flames for all eternity? Doesn't sound like a loving God to me. Sure, you can say God is sovereign all you like, but where is the love of God? Such talk is meaningless. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). “But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” (Romans 10:21).

Click to expand...

Bible Highlighter said:

Besides, God can still be sovereign even amongst our free will choice to either choose Him, or not choose Him in this life. God gets the glory because He already knows what men will do before they do it. God gets the glory because He provided a way of escape that without Him, they could not be saved.

Click to expand...

This God that you are referring to is a liar. A God that says he loves all people but then sends the same unlucky ones to hell. A liar and an impostor.

All Glory To God said:

This God that you are referring to is a liar. A God that says he loves all people but then sends the same unlucky ones to hell. A liar and an impostor.

Click to expand...

Okay. So then the non-elect do have a chance at salvation?

Bible Highlighter said:

I did. Please show me what words in any of my posts that you believe I have acted poorly. Again, I do not see correcting what I believe to be a wrong belief as acting poorly. There are some Christians in the past on this forum who do not think inappropriate content is a problem or a sin. Should we not rebuke their false belief? Would it be acting in poor behavior by showing them the error of their belief?

Click to expand...

What you believe is one thing and how you conduct yourself is one thing. They are not two of the same thing.

It is not your specific vocabulary, but your attitude. You should be gentle when correcting someone, not heavy handed. You might not be making any ad homs, but your responses are strong and not tempered. That is what I am talking about. I don't even think you are breaking any rules, but I think this is a bigger issue than simply following the letter of the law and everything else is fair game.

In other words, I am asking you to put your love goggles on and try and view me as a person instead of an argument. Know the people you talk to online have a person behind the screen. I think it is always best to err on the side of caution with respect. Your responses should be tempered with love first and foremost.

And like I said for probably the third time now, I don't hold to a strictly Calvinistic belief, so your argument with me is ill founded given your main gripe is with Calvinism and not with me. But I don't hold exactly a Calvinistic belief so you are arguing the wrong thing to the wrong person.

Let me try and do something and we will see what happens.

What do you believe about Soteriology? How do you think people get saved?

nolidad said:

God offering redemption since Adam!

But with this verse are you rejecting What Paul wrote in the new TEstament? that we in our human nnature can do nothing good?

Rom. 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I think he Bible is clear that at least in the New TEstament (for there is hypotheses about the progression of the sin nature up to the flood etc.) that man is sold unto sin as it says in rom. 6 and 7.

If we can do no good in the flesh, how can we turn to God? All we have is the flesh nature or human nature.

Click to expand...

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is referring to his past experience of trying to be justified by the 613 laws of Moses as a part of being in the false Pharisee religion. They over emphasized salvation by the Law and did not make God's grace through the Messiah the basis of their salvation. When a person seeks to be justified by Law Alone Salvationism and no grace, then of course they are going to be a slave to their own sin because they are not playing ball on God's terms.

As for the dual nature teaching that we sin the flesh and yet we are seen justified in the eyes of God spiritually because we have a belief alone on Jesus: Well, if this is indeed the belief you are referring to, then it is clearly false according to the Bible.

2 Corinthians 7:1 says,
“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

Bible Highlighter said:

Okay. So then the non-elect do have a chance at salvation?

Click to expand...

Are you agreeing to what I just said?

True Counterphobia said:

What you believe is one thing and how you conduct yourself is one thing. They are not two of the same thing.

It is not your specific vocabulary, but your attitude. You should be gentle when correcting someone, not heavy handed. You might not be making any ad homs, but your responses are strong and not tempered. That is what I am talking about. I don't even think you are breaking any rules, but I think this is a bigger issue than simply following the letter of the law and everything else is fair game.

In other words, I am asking you to put your love goggles on and try and view me as a person instead of an argument. Know the people you talk to online have a person behind the screen. I think it is always best to err on the side of caution with respect. Your responses should be tempered with love first and foremost.

And like I said for probably the third time now, I don't hold to a strictly Calvinistic belief, so your argument with me is ill founded given your main gripe is with Calvinism and not with me. But I don't hold exactly a Calvinistic belief so you are arguing the wrong thing to the wrong person.

Let me try and do something and we will see what happens.

Click to expand...

Again, Jesus called people snakes, and white washed tombs. Paul told the Galatians that they were foolish. I did not even come close to doing that. So your view here is not biblical. Correcting a wrong belief in a harsh way is not an unbiblical thing to do. If you believe otherwise, then you need to show that with Scripture.

As for your claim that you don't exactly hold to Calvinism:
How does that work? Do you only believe in some points of TULIP?
Do you believe the non-elect have a chance at salvation?
Please explain in depth as much as possible.

You said:

What do you believe about Soteriology? How do you think people get saved?

Click to expand...

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement)

All Glory To God said:

Are you agreeing to what I just said?

Click to expand...

I have no idea what you are talking about on what you said previously. Please just answer my most recent question, and then we can move on in a discussion from there, my friend.

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, Jesus called people snakes, and white washed tombs. Paul told the Galatians that they were foolish. I did not even come close to doing that. So your view here is not biblical. Correcting a wrong belief in a harsh way is not an unbiblical thing to do. If you believe otherwise, then you need to show that with Scripture.

As for your claim that you don't exactly hold to Calvinism:
How does that work? Do you only believe in some points of TULIP?
Do you believe the non-elect have a chance at salvation?
Please explain in depth as much as possible.

Click to expand...

This is more or less what I believe. I think this is what John Calvin actually believed but I am not entirely sure on that:

True Counterphobia said:

As I understand it, and I am not 100% on this, but I think the way John Calvin saw it is that there is the "elect" and "everyone else" but just because there are those who are elect doesn't mean those who are not elect cannot find their way to heaven. The way this works is, as John Piper puts it, Christ has a "unique love" for the elect. As such, it is not so much that those who are not elect cannot find their way to salvation but that they must hear the Word preached to them thereby then have their in, not in and of themselves, but through the general grace given to mankind through Christ's blood poured out at Calvary and those who are elect to give them the Word.

That is how I understand it but I am not 100% on this theory.

Click to expand...

It should be clear that God does specifically call some people to do specific things. I am not really sure if we disagree with that or not.

So my view is that God has the elect whom He calls with irresistible grace, but that, yes, the non-elect still have a way into salvation. I also previously tried to point out that when we sin it is of our Free Will and when we do good it is a synergistic act (meaning the individual cooperates with the Holy Spirit).

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

Click to expand...

I don't have a problem with that in principle, but I think you have to allow for God's special calling on some people's lives to do great things for the Kingdom of Heaven.

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

Click to expand...

I don't think I have a problem with this. The only disagreement I have is that we sin all the time even as believers.

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

Click to expand...

I would only point out that I personally do not believe in any A-moral behaviors, thoughts, or intentions.

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).

Click to expand...

Agree.

Conclusion:

Click to expand...

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement)

Click to expand...

Okay.

True Counterphobia said:

This is more or less what I believe. I think this is what John Calvin actually believed but I am not entirely sure on that:

Click to expand...

I believe John Calvin created TULIP. But we can agree to disagree.
Anyways, what points of TULIP do you hold to or don't hold to?

You said:

It should be clear that God does specifically call some people to do specific things. I am not really sure if we disagree with that or not.

So my view is that God has the elect whom He calls with irresistible grace, but that, yes, the non-elect still have a way into salvation.

Click to expand...

This is not consistent with traditional Calvinism. But you are free to deviate and create your own version of Calvinism as you wish. I just find all five points of Traditional Calvinism to be seriously unbiblical.

I believe grace can be resisted.

Why? Well, Paul exhorted the Corinthians not to receive the grace of God in vain.

“We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.” (2 Corinthians 6:1).

2 Peter 2:1 says, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

This shows that while they were bought by the Lord, they are still not saved because they teach damnable heresies or false teachings. This means that they resisted grace or the true way.

You said:

I also previously tried to point out that when we sin it is of our Free Will and when we do good it is a synergistic act (meaning the individual cooperates with the Holy Spirit).

Click to expand...

Traditional Calvinism teaches that there is no free will. They will point to Total Depravity and say that they are a slave to do evil and sin, and thus they need a regeneration or change by God in order to choose the Lord for salvation. While it is true that we cannot come to the Lord without His drawing, it does not mean God only draws some and not all to salvation. Christ draws all men to Himself. For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You said:

I don't have a problem with that in principle, but I think you have to allow for God's special calling on some people's lives to do great things for the Kingdom of Heaven.

Click to expand...

Traditional Calvinism has a problem with the Provisional Atonement because they believe in Limited Atonement instead. They believe God died only for the Elect and not for the sins of the whole world. Yet, the Bible says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (See: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2).

You said:

I don't think I have a problem with this. The only disagreement I have is that we sin all the time even as believers.

Click to expand...

I believe the Christian needs to at some point in their walk with the Lord to overcome grievous or mortal sin in this life in order to obtain mercy, and or salvation. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. I believe there are “sins that do not lead unto death” (Which are minor transgressions or faults of character that the Bible does not specifically condemn with warnings of hellfire and condemntion). An example would be Paul going to Jerusalem against the warnings of the Holy Spirit. Paul was not condemned because his motivation in going to Jerusalem was love. It was to see his fellow Jews saved. For example: I don't believe a Christian is condemned if they go over the speed limit a little or if they forget to take the trash out one week.

You said:

I would only point out that I personally do not believe in any A-moral behaviors, thoughts, or intentions.

Click to expand...

So then John MacArthur is wrong for teaching that a believer does not lose salvation if commit suicide?
Do you believe that a Christian is still saved if they sin in certain cases?
What about King David? Was King David saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

True Counterphobia said:

This is more or less what I believe. I think this is what John Calvin actually believed but I am not entirely sure on that:



It should be clear that God does specifically call some people to do specific things. I am not really sure if we disagree with that or not.

So my view is that God has the elect whom He calls with irresistible grace, but that, yes, the non-elect still have a way into salvation. I also previously tried to point out that when we sin it is of our Free Will and when we do good it is a synergistic act (meaning the individual cooperates with the Holy Spirit).



I don't have a problem with that in principle, but I think you have to allow for God's special calling on some people's lives to do great things for the Kingdom of Heaven.



I don't think I have a problem with this. The only disagreement I have is that we sin all the time even as believers.



I would only point out that I personally do not believe in any A-moral behaviors, thoughts, or intentions.



Agree.



Okay.

Click to expand...

I would encourage you to check out this video here by Pastor Alan Ballou.

chad kincham said:

The most hateful “believers” I’ve ever met are Calvinists.

They get that from their Romans 9 interpretation, that they say shows that God hates the unelect, because He hated Esau - and they end up concluding from that, that since God hates the unelect, they hate them too.

And of course if you don’t hold to their 5 point TULIP doctrine, you prove yourself to be one of the unelect, therefore they hate you, just like their version of God, does.

No, I didn’t say ALL Calvinists are that type of hater - I said that the meanest and nastiest believers I’ve ever met, are hard core five pointer Calvinists.

Click to expand...

Funny, I've noticed the most hateful are the hyper-fundamentalist, semi-Arminian (synergists). But I don't pretend to know what chapter of the Bible causes them to be so.

Cormack said:

That’s your reply to question 1, right? Christ died for absolutely everyone. Do you consider yourself a Calvinist (also known as reformed theology, the doctrines of grace.)?

Click to expand...

I must Truthfully advise that everyone heaven bound will know who they are. One must be converted. I continue to wait for someone who had been converted looking for fellowship. When I was called over 30 years ago I begged God for someone who understood. Fortunately He answered that prayer quickly.

Bible Highlighter said:

In the world of Calvinism: If you cannot resist God's grace and you believe in Unconditional Election, then of course it is forced. In Calvinism: Even the reprobate are forced to go to hell as a part of God's sovereign decree. They did not place themselves in hell by anything they did. It's not because they are sinners that they are going to hell. It's because God did not snap His fingers and elect them to salvation like a few of the others who were sinners. They are going to hell for all eternity because they are chosen by God to burn for all eternity. They never had a chance to repent. Their sole existence for coming into this creation is to suffer by the hands of God. They had no other potential destiny, but to suffer eternally by God. This is the heart of what I believe is Calvinism. It's monstrous. It's wrong. But if you like this kind of belief, then by all means, knock yourself out. It's neither biblical and or moral.

Also, how do you reconcile God getting mad at sinners?
In Calvinism: Does not God elect sinners to salvation?
Do they not change as a result of this election?
If so, then why would God ever need to be upset about sin in the Bible?
That is what makes Calvinism so silly and or highly illogical.
God could simply elect everyone and not be mad at anyone.
But God is mad at sinners and yet it was His own choice for them to remain as sinners. It doesn't make any sense. Calvinism is clearly not true by any sense of the word, just as Flat Earth is clearly not true. It's just common sense.

Click to expand...

I hope you recognize that what you write following, "In the world of Calvinism", is not what Calvinism teaches, but, rather, your use of what we teach. If God placing the Holy Spirit within, regenerating, cannot be resisted, how is that any more a forced matter than anything else God has done? Did God ask your permission before causing you to exist? Were you forced to make every decision you make? (Logic shows, after all, through the law of causality, that ALL things were caused except First Cause.) Is the nature you are bound to, forced upon you? How is the unspeakable gift of a changed nature (regeneration) considered with such an attitude? Why not accept your salvation as a gift, instead of trying to force it to be your choice?

When the Bible says, "the love of Christ compels us", it is a sure fact. "Forced"? By the way,


If you don't have God's point of view concerning his love, you don't concerning his hate either. Sin is a horror, an abomination against the nature of existence itself. How can God not hate it? I can hardly understand how it can be possible for God to create something that is not himself, but that the very thing he created is capable of rebelling against him is more than my mind can even do more with than to accept as being so. It is only by God's Grace that the "fabric of the universe" is not torn at the contradiction.

So yeah, God is angry at sinners, and rightfully so. You really think you can operate judgement at God's level? If God predestined mankind to fall, so that some he chose for the purpose can KNOW God's love in a way Adam never could, is he to be blamed, or rather to be THANKED?

More to follow when I get time, and if I remember, concerning your logic that if one is born unchosen into a sin nature, he is not to blame for his sin.