Are you a Jew under the law or a gentile ?

HARK!

שמע
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Here is what He wrote.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment
Singular

The one who keeps His commandments
Plural

Sure looks like the law is a no show in this new covenant.

(CLV) MarK 12: 28-34
28 And, approaching, one of the scribes, hearing them discussing, having perceived that He answered them ideally, inquires of Him, "What is the foremost precept of all? 29 Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." 30 And, You shall be loving the Lord God out of your whole heart, and out of your whole soul, and out of your whole comprehension, and out of your whole strength. This is the foremost precept." 31 And the second is like it: 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.' Now greater than these is no other precept." 32 And the scribe said to Him, "In truth, Teacher, Thou sayest ideally that He is One, and there is no other more than He." 33 And to be loving Him out of your whole heart, and out of the whole understanding, and out of the whole soul, and out of the whole strength, and to be loving the associate as yourself, is excessively more than all the ascent approaches and the sacrifices." 34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered apprehendingly, said to him, "Not far are you from the kingdom of God.And no one dared to inquire of Him any longer."

Yahshua was quoting the Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

(CLV) DT 6:4
4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. 5 So you will love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity. 6 These words which I am instructing you today will come to be in your heart.

(CLV) LV 19:18
18 You shall not avenge nor shall you be resentful against the sons of your people. You will love your associate as yourself:I am Yahweh.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, (plural)is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.
 
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klutedavid

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God's law is perfect (Psalms 19:7), so obedience to it is what perfection looks like.
If the apostles proclaimed circumcision for the Gentiles, then I would agree with you. Anyone who is not circumcised is not under the law. It's really simple.

The apostles taught the death and resurrection of the Christ for the forgiveness of sin. The gospel of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is what they preached.

Jesus Christ grants us His perfect righteousness and that righteousness is a free gift. Not a self generated righteousness based on your partial obedience to the law.

The law grants the knowledge of sin, not righteousness.

All you can ever obtain by obedience to the law, is the condemnation that the law delivers in bucket loads.

I never want to hear anyone claiming that they obey the law, because that is impossible. We are lawbreakers, sinful, weak, and chronically selfish creatures.

Christ triumphed over the law through love. We fulfill all the requirements of the law in that same love. But that love is a spiritual gift granted to us by the Holy Spirit.

Love does not kill.
Love does not steal.
Love does not covet.
If there is any other commandment then love fulfills that commandment also.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Romans 13:9
For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
 
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klutedavid

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Nice try Hark.

There are two commandments in that passage I quoted. Can you see the word, 'and'? That means in addition to.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, AND love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

There you go Hark, you have been set free from the law of sin and death. Now you know His commandments.
(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping HIS precepts, (plural)is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.
You have the precepts, i.e., the two commandments that He gave us. You have no excuse now.
 
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Soyeong

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If the apostles proclaimed circumcision for the Gentiles, then I would agree with you. Anyone who is not circumcised is not under the law. It's really simple.

The apostles taught the death and resurrection of the Christ for the forgiveness of sin. The gospel of the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is what they preached.

Jesus Christ grants us His perfect righteousness and that righteousness is a free gift. Not a self generated righteousness based on your partial obedience to the law.

The law grants the knowledge of sin, not righteousness.

All you can ever obtain by obedience to the law, is the condemnation that the law delivers in bucket loads.

I never want to hear anyone claiming that they obey the law, because that is impossible. We are lawbreakers, sinful, weak, and chronically selfish creatures.

Christ triumphed over the law through love. We fulfill all the requirements of the law in that same love. But that love is a spiritual gift granted to us by the Holy Spirit.

Love does not kill.
Love does not steal.
Love does not covet.
If there is any other commandment then love fulfills that commandment also.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Romans 13:9
For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


The Apostles only spoke against becoming circumcised for the purpose of earning our justification, but did not speak against obeying God's command. The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's nature, which is revealed through His law. Anyone who is not under God's law has no need to refrain from sin, has no need of grace, and has not need of salvation from living in transgression of God's law. However, God is sovereign, so we are all under God's law and obligated to obey, even those who aren't in a covenant relationship with Him, such as when God judged the world with the Flood. They didn't get to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God's law, and neither do you, but the choice you do get to make is whether you are going to heed the Gospel message and repent from your disobedience to God's law.

The law grants both knowledge of sin and knowledge of righteousness because expressing righteousness is the mark and sin is missing that mark. Jesus expressed his righteousness through his actions and what that looked like was obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also what it looks like when we have received the free gift of his righteousness. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so being trained by grace to follow God's laws for how to do these things is itself part of the content of God's free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like. It is contradictory for someone who does not think that they are under God's law to also think that they need salvation from living in transgression of it.

Not even earthly fathers give instructions to their children with the goal of bringing condemnation to them, and this is that much for true of our Heavenly Father, who gave His law for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). God can be trusted to give us good laws that set us up for success rather than for failure. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God's law is not too difficult to obey and obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as an impossibility, and thinking that we can obey the law is a matter of putting our faith in God's word, while claiming that it is impossible is essentially claiming that God lied. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so saying that it is impossible is denying that they are not burdensome and denying that there is anyone who has ever loved God.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so love does not triumph over the law, but rather it is the essence of the law. Love does not kill, steal, covet, or transgress any of the other laws that God has given because all of God's laws are examples of what it looks like to love, which is why love fulfills the law. If someone's obedience to the command to love does not look like obedience to God's other laws, then they are not treating that command as being the sum of the other laws.
 
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RickReads

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If you are not aware if this, the Shema is called the Shema because the forst word in the Shema is Shema. The word Shema, translated to English is the word "hear."

If Yahshua said that the Shema is the foremost precept (he did) then it is. It's just that simple.

Yes I was aware of it. Note:the word hear is the first word in my quote from the hear/shema. However, I believe Yeshua was quoting the Torah not the Shema in the book of Matthew.

I believe Shema recital is part of the oral tradition which to my knowledge Yeshua never quoted in His teachings.
 
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RickReads

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My comments in ( )

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations before the end (Matthew 24:12-14). The same goes for Acts 2:38 for how Peter’s audience knew what sin is when he told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture is written for our instruction and in 15:18-19, his Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page as Jesus about teaching repentance from our sins. In Ephesians 3:6, Paul described the mystery as Gentiles being fell heirs, which was in accordance with what Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations, and in accordance with what Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations.

(Ephesians 3:6 is an entirely different deal then the commision Yeshua gave the Apostles. The mission of the Apostles was to convert Israel and once they accomplished that mission the world would come to Christ through the rise of Israel. If not for the fall of Israel your doctrine would be right. Ephesian 3 Gentiles are equals of Israel but we are not Jews. Every Gentile nation is a different tribe in the commonwealth of Israel. Isaac is our brother but we are not his children.)


I agree that Yeshua is the focus of the first 18 verses of John 1, however, that doesn't mean that it doesn't make a true statement about the law being listed as an example of grace upon grace.

( No one outside of your little Hebrew Roots crowd would believe something like that. No scripture says that grace comes by the Law. I`ve dealt with a few real deal scholars in my time on the internet. They would rudely poke fun at you for saying that.That isn`t a view that can be taken seriously.)

The word used in Psalms 119:29 Hebrew word chen comes from chanan, so you're splitting hairs.

( Not really, you are distorting David`s prayer to fit your doctrine.)

In any case, in Titus 2:11-14, it uses the word "grace" in regard to describing our salvation as being trained to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and God's law instructs how to do that.

( Titus 2 is talking about keeping what Paul called the righteouness of the Law. Do you really believe that you are keeping the Law of Moses? No one does because without the Temple in Jerusalem it isn`t possible to keep it. By your standard everyone would go to hell.)

"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.

( The law of Christ is about keeping the righteouness of the Law, not the same thing as keeping law of Moses.)

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse so choose life! So it was presented as a choice and as a possibility, not something that only the Son of God can do. Thinking that only the Son of God could fulfill it means that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). God can be trusted to give good laws to His children and to set us up for success, not for failure. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey his commandments, which are not burdensome, so to say that only the Son of God could obey them is to deny that they are not burdensome and to deny that there is anyone other than the Son of God who has ever loved God.

( Yeshua is the only man who ever fulfilled the requirement of Deuteronomy 30.)


Isaiah 51:7 “Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law;

"Listen to me" means "listen to me" and has nothing to with what you said. It uses a parallel statement to describe those who know righteousness as being people in whose heart is God's law, which is straightforwardly because God's law is His instructions for how to know righteousness.

( If I recall correctly you were trying to use Isaiah 51:7 as proof that Law keeping is a component of salvation and my response is, listening to God is the salvation not deeds of the law. At any rate I thought Isaiah 51:7 is a poor reference for our discussion.)

I really don't see how you can that deny that Paul was quoting from Deuteronomy. There has only ever been one path to salvation.

( In part he was until you get to the part where he wasn`t. And yes, believing what God says has always been the one path, see Isaiah 51:7)

Romans 9:6-9 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);

( You misquote and you dishonestly avoid Romans 10:10. For that you get no response! LOL!)

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

( :sleep: )


In 1 John 2:3-6, it associates the instruction to follow Christ's commands with the instruction that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so there is no distinction in commands between what Jesus taught by word or by example, and what he taught by example was how to obey the Mosaic Law.

( What John teaches is fulfillment of the Law by loving your brother, which I am taking some of my time to do in an effort to point the way for you to become a true Messianic, able to uphold the doctrine of the 12 Apostles of Yeshua. So far I am disappointed in my efforts. It`s hard to pierce your indoctrination)



[/QUOTE]
 
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Soyeong

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The word used in Psalms 119:29 Hebrew word chen comes from chanan, so you're splitting hairs.

( Not really, you are distorting David`s prayer to fit your doctrine.)

"Chen means" means "favor, grace", while "chanan" means "to show favor, be gracious", so they are very close in meaning and are not referring to something completely different as you are trying to make it out to be. In regard Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace, so carries the same meaning as David wanting God to be gracious to him by teaching him, and both are in regard to being taught to obey God's law. I'm not sure why you responded by going off on a tangent about the righteousness of the law, especially when that phrase is not used anywhere in Titus 2.

Do you really believe that you are keeping the Law of Moses? No one does because without the Temple in Jerusalem it isn`t possible to keep it. By your standard everyone would go to hell.)

The Israelites were given instructions about what to do once they had entered the land before they had entered it, so we are not obligated to obey a law that can't be followed, though we should nevertheless be faithful to obey as much as we can. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition to return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so again they were nevertheless faithful to do as much as they could.

( The law of Christ is about keeping the righteouness of the Law, not the same thing as keeping law of Moses.)

God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. Christ taught obedience to the Mosaic Law both by word and by example, so it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than what Christ taught. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own set of laws.

( Yeshua is the only man who ever fulfilled the requirement of Deuteronomy 30.)

According to Galatians 5:14, everyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so Jesus was one of many who did that. If Jesus was the only who fulfilled the requirement of Deuteronomy 30, then that means that God lied about it not being too difficult and essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children, when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteruonomy 6:24, 10:12-13)

Isaiah 51:7 “Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law;

"Listen to me" means "listen to me" and has nothing to with what you said. It uses a parallel statement to describe those who know righteousness as being people in whose heart is God's law, which is straightforwardly because God's law is His instructions for how to know righteousness.

( If I recall correctly you were trying to use Isaiah 51:7 as proof that Law keeping is a component of salvation and my response is, listening to God is the salvation not deeds of the law. At any rate I thought Isaiah 51:7 is a poor reference for our discussion.)

I really don't see how you can that deny that Paul was quoting from Deuteronomy. There has only ever been one path to salvation.

( In part he was until you get to the part where he wasn`t. And yes, believing what God says has always been the one path, see Isaiah 51:7)

In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith is not an alternative to living in obedience to God's law, but rather obedience to God's law is what living by faith looks like.

Romans 9:6-9 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);

( You misquote and you dishonestly avoid Romans 10:10. For that you get no response! LOL!)

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

( :sleep: )

You denied that Romans 10 was quoting Deuteronomy 30, so I quoted the part of Romans 10 that was quoting the part from Deuteronomy 30. I did not quote Romans 10:10 straightforwardly because that part was not a quote from Deuteronomy 30. In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith and this faith quotes from Deuteronomy 30 to say that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys God's law will attain life by it, and in regard to what it looks like to confess Jesus as Lord. I did not misquote anything.

In 1 John 2:3-6, it associates the instruction to follow Christ's commands with the instruction that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so there is no distinction in commands between what Jesus taught by word or by example, and what he taught by example was how to obey the Mosaic Law.

( What John teaches is fulfillment of the Law by loving your brother, which I am taking some of my time to do in an effort to point the way for you to become a true Messianic, able to uphold the doctrine of the 12 Apostles of Yeshua. So far I am disappointed in my efforts. It`s hard to pierce your indoctrination)

In Matthew 22:36-40, the existence of the greatest commandment implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest. All of the commandments given by God in the Bible are examples of what it looks like to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those were the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor looks like obedience to the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commandments, but rather it is the essence of them.

The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of the other commandments in order to paint us a picture of what that looks like and to give us many opportunities to connect with Him in every aspect of our lives. So someone who lived in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law because they would both look like the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. If someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not look like obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and our neighbor and they are not treating the greatest two commandments as the sum of all of the other commandments that hang on them. What God was commanding the Israelites to do when He gave the greatest two commandments should not mean something different from what Jesus was telling his followers to do when he quoted those commandments.
 
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RickReads

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"Chen means" means "favor, grace", while "chanan" means "to show favor, be gracious", so they are very close in meaning and are not referring to something completely different as you are trying to make it out to be. In regard Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace, so carries the same meaning as David wanting God to be gracious to him by teaching him, and both are in regard to being taught to obey God's law. I'm not sure why you responded by going off on a tangent about the righteousness of the law, especially when that phrase is not used anywhere in Titus 2.



The Israelites were given instructions about what to do once they had entered the land before they had entered it, so we are not obligated to obey a law that can't be followed, though we should nevertheless be faithful to obey as much as we can. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition to return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so again they were nevertheless faithful to do as much as they could.



God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. Christ taught obedience to the Mosaic Law both by word and by example, so it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than what Christ taught. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own set of laws.



According to Galatians 5:14, everyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so Jesus was one of many who did that. If Jesus was the only who fulfilled the requirement of Deuteronomy 30, then that means that God lied about it not being too difficult and essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children, when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteruonomy 6:24, 10:12-13)



In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith is not an alternative to living in obedience to God's law, but rather obedience to God's law is what living by faith looks like.



You denied that Romans 10 was quoting Deuteronomy 30, so I quoted the part of Romans 10 that was quoting the part from Deuteronomy 30. I did not quote Romans 10:10 straightforwardly because that part was not a quote from Deuteronomy 30. In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith and this faith quotes from Deuteronomy 30 to say that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys God's law will attain life by it, and in regard to what it looks like to confess Jesus as Lord. I did not misquote anything.



In Matthew 22:36-40, the existence of the greatest commandment implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest. All of the commandments given by God in the Bible are examples of what it looks like to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those were the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor looks like obedience to the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commandments, but rather it is the essence of them.

The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of the other commandments in order to paint us a picture of what that looks like and to give us many opportunities to connect with Him in every aspect of our lives. So someone who lived in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law because they would both look like the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. If someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not look like obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and our neighbor and they are not treating the greatest two commandments as the sum of all of the other commandments that hang on them. What God was commanding the Israelites to do when He gave the greatest two commandments should not mean something different from what Jesus was telling his followers to do when he quoted those commandments.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Everyone has to make a choice, righteousness of Christ or righteusness by some other method. Your attempt to create a mix is a sham that simply translates into works for salvation.

PS, Your remark about Romans 10 is a false accusation that does not reflect what I really said.
 
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Soyeong

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I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Everyone has to make a choice, righteousness of Christ or righteusness by some other method. Your attempt to create a mix is a sham that simply translates into works for salvation.

God's law straightforwardly does what is was given to do and does not do what is was not given to do, so, we do not earn our righteousness by obeying the law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. Righteousness is a character trait of God that is straightforwardly expressed by doing what is righteous, and God's law is His instructions for how to express that character trait, not for how to earn it. For example, God's law reveals that is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to earn their righteousness because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. Even if someone manage to living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they would still not earn their righteousness by it because it simply was not given for that purpose. If we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law. In other words, the reason why we have received the righteousness of Christ was not in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our actions in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow of how he expressed his righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic law.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so Abraham did not earn his righteousness by his obedience, but rather the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed as obedience to God. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith.

To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then the lessons themselves would be the content of their free gift and participating in their lessons would be doing nothing to earn them, but rather that is what it would look like to receive them. In the same way, in Titus 2:11-14, God graciously teaching us to do what is godly, righteous, and good is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. I would only be supporting a works based salvation if I were saying that we needed to do works in order to earn our salvation, but I have never stated that we need to do that.

PS, Your remark about Romans 10 is a false accusation that does not reflect what I really said.

You said:

Romans 10:8-10 is not a quote from the book of Deuteronomy, comparison only serves to show we have a different path to salvation now.

So I quoted Romans 10:6-9 and Deuteronomy 30:11-14 to show that Paul was quoting from the book Deuteronomy. However, Romans 10:10 is not a quote from Deuteronomy, so I did not include that verse in what I quoted. Furthermore, I stated that there has only ever been one path to salvation, which denies that Romans 10:8-10 serves to show we have a different path to salvation now. You responded by saying:

( You misquote and you dishonestly avoid Romans 10:10. For that you get no response! LOL!)

However, I fully quoted Romans 10:6-9 and Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and did not include verse 10 because it had nothing to do with the reason why I was quoting those two passages, so you falsely accused me of misquoting and of dishonesty. I responded by again making the point that I was quoting those passages to show that the passage in Romans contains a quote from Deuteronomy and by saying:

In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith and this faith quotes from Deuteronomy 30 to say that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys God's law will attain life by it, and in regard to what it looks like to confess Jesus as Lord. I did not misquote anything.

I don't know if our wires are getting crossed or what.
 
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klutedavid

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The Apostles only spoke against becoming circumcised for the purpose of earning our justification, but did not speak against obeying God's command. The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's nature, which is revealed through His law. Anyone who is not under God's law has no need to refrain from sin, has no need of grace, and has not need of salvation from living in transgression of God's law. However, God is sovereign, so we are all under God's law and obligated to obey, even those who aren't in a covenant relationship with Him, such as when God judged the world with the Flood. They didn't get to choose whether or not they wanted to be under God's law, and neither do you, but the choice you do get to make is whether you are going to heed the Gospel message and repent from your disobedience to God's law.

The law grants both knowledge of sin and knowledge of righteousness because expressing righteousness is the mark and sin is missing that mark. Jesus expressed his righteousness through his actions and what that looked like was obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also what it looks like when we have received the free gift of his righteousness. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so being trained by grace to follow God's laws for how to do these things is itself part of the content of God's free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like. It is contradictory for someone who does not think that they are under God's law to also think that they need salvation from living in transgression of it.

Not even earthly fathers give instructions to their children with the goal of bringing condemnation to them, and this is that much for true of our Heavenly Father, who gave His law for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). God can be trusted to give us good laws that set us up for success rather than for failure. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God's law is not too difficult to obey and obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as an impossibility, and thinking that we can obey the law is a matter of putting our faith in God's word, while claiming that it is impossible is essentially claiming that God lied. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so saying that it is impossible is denying that they are not burdensome and denying that there is anyone who has ever loved God.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so love does not triumph over the law, but rather it is the essence of the law. Love does not kill, steal, covet, or transgress any of the other laws that God has given because all of God's laws are examples of what it looks like to love, which is why love fulfills the law. If someone's obedience to the command to love does not look like obedience to God's other laws, then they are not treating that command as being the sum of the other laws.
Your essentially saying that the following verse is not true?

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

The next verse cannot be true either.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Silly apostles did not know what they were talking about.
 
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Your essentially saying that the following verse is not true?

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

The next verse cannot be true either.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Silly apostles did not know what they were talking about.

Huh? I've said nothing contrary to any of those verses.
 
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klutedavid

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Huh? I've said nothing contrary to any of those verses.
So you believe in a gospel of grace, anyone who calls on the name of Jesus is saved?

No conditions, no caveats?

No obedience to any particular law is necessary?
 
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RickReads

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God's law straightforwardly does what is was given to do and does not do what is was not given to do, so, we do not earn our righteousness by obeying the law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. Righteousness is a character trait of God that is straightforwardly expressed by doing what is righteous, and God's law is His instructions for how to express that character trait, not for how to earn it. For example, God's law reveals that is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to earn their righteousness because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. Even if someone manage to living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they would still not earn their righteousness by it because it simply was not given for that purpose. If we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law. In other words, the reason why we have received the righteousness of Christ was not in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our actions in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow of how he expressed his righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic law.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so Abraham did not earn his righteousness by his obedience, but rather the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed as obedience to God. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith.

To use an analogy, if a professional musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then the lessons themselves would be the content of their free gift and participating in their lessons would be doing nothing to earn them, but rather that is what it would look like to receive them. In the same way, in Titus 2:11-14, God graciously teaching us to do what is godly, righteous, and good is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. I would only be supporting a works based salvation if I were saying that we needed to do works in order to earn our salvation, but I have never stated that we need to do that.



You said:



So I quoted Romans 10:6-9 and Deuteronomy 30:11-14 to show that Paul was quoting from the book Deuteronomy. However, Romans 10:10 is not a quote from Deuteronomy, so I did not include that verse in what I quoted. Furthermore, I stated that there has only ever been one path to salvation, which denies that Romans 10:8-10 serves to show we have a different path to salvation now. You responded by saying:



However, I fully quoted Romans 10:6-9 and Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and did not include verse 10 because it had nothing to do with the reason why I was quoting those two passages, so you falsely accused me of misquoting and of dishonesty. I responded by again making the point that I was quoting those passages to show that the passage in Romans contains a quote from Deuteronomy and by saying:



I don't know if our wires are getting crossed or what.

If you think Romans chapter ten, verses eight, nine are quotes from the book of Deuteronomy
then some of your wires may be crossed.

You didn`t quote verse ten because it contradicts your doctrine so badly that you would prefer to leave it out of the conversation.

I don`t like to use excessive amounts of info but below is reading I strongly recommend to you.

Galations 3
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 4

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
 
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Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

:doh::preach:
What is the Faith in which Paul Speaks?

The word, the law is in the heart, mind and mouth.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is THROUGH faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word) down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word, the law) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy MOUTH, and in thy HEART: that is, THE WORD OF FAITH,WHICH WE PREACH;

Rom 10:4 For Christ (through which the word, the law is in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (on tables of stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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It seems very insensitive to take the Law away from the Jews. In fact, it is so ingrained into them that they are swimming in the Law. No, I do not take away the Law from the Jews if they serve Yeshua. The works by themselves cannot save you, they can only condemn you. What one does as a good work does so of love. Gentiles can love. It is not difficult for a gentile to see a person in need. I was told when you love someone you fulfill the entire Law. This is a marvelous thing that a gentile can fulfill the Law. Not in a complete sense, of course, as once the Law is broken the Law breaker is deserving of death. So to say one completes the Law is what is "expected" but this expectation is a one way street to righteousness for if you have broken one law, you have broken them all. That is the importance of Romans 7. That Paul knows he has broken the Law and that Law is the Law of love. As no one can fully love God completely. Not once has anyone ever loved God completely and not once has anyone loved another completely. But that is why Faith is a gift of grace and not a work. For as any ability to keep the Law is done by the Holy Spirit. As it is written, "No one can say Jesus is Lord except through the Holy Spirit." Naturally, the condition of the heart is what is at stake here. No one can believe in their heart that Jesus died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead except by the power of the Holy Spirit. Such is true with following the Law. As following the Law cannot be done without the Holy Spirit as Paul says he accounted his Law keeping as "rubbish" because according to the Law he was dead in his sin. So we must work for union with God through the Holy Spirit to keep the Law.
 
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What is the Faith in which Paul Speaks?

The word, the law is in the heart, mind and mouth.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is THROUGH faith of Jesus Christ INTO all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word) down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word, the law) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy MOUTH, and in thy HEART: that is, THE WORD OF FAITH,WHICH WE PREACH;

Rom 10:4 For Christ (through which the word, the law is in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (on tables of stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

All that is nice, I`ve seen Christians use this argument more then once. The problem is Romans 3:31 is a reference to the written Law. That`s not my interpretation it`s just the way it is. You look at what scholars say about this verse. I posted a link to a number of sources in one of my early posts to this thread.

Plain as can be, this verse, says faith does not void the written Law.
 
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HIM

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All that is nice, I`ve seen Christians use this argument more then once. The problem is Romans 3:31 is a reference to the written Law. That`s not my interpretation it`s just the way it is. You look at what scholars say about this verse. I posted a link to a number of sources in one of my early posts to this thread.

Plain as can be, this verse, says faith does not void the written Law.
Lol you think I disagree with you.... Maybe in part.
Please re-read the post. It lays out the context of Romans in reference to Faith.
 
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RickReads

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It seems very insensitive to take the Law away from the Jews. In fact, it is so ingrained into them that they are swimming in the Law. No, I do not take away the Law from the Jews if they serve Yeshua. The works by themselves cannot save you, they can only condemn you. What one does as a good work does so of love. Gentiles can love. It is not difficult for a gentile to see a person in need. I was told when you love someone you fulfill the entire Law. This is a marvelous thing that a gentile can fulfill the Law. Not in a complete sense, of course, as once the Law is broken the Law breaker is deserving of death. So to say one completes then Law is what is "expected" but this expectation is a one way street to righteousness for if you have broken one law, you have broken them all. That is the importance of Romans 7. That Paul knows he has broken the Law and that Law is the Law of love. As no one can fully love God completely. Not once has anyone ever loved God completely and not once has anyone loved another completely. But that is why Faith is a gift of grace and not a work. For as any ability to keep the Law is done by the Holy Spirit. As it is written, "No one can say Jesus is Lord except through the Holy Spirit." Naturally, the condition of the heart is what is at stake here. No one can believe in their heart that Jesus died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead except by the power of the Holy Spirit. Such is true with following the Law. As following the Law cannot be done without the Holy Spirit as Paul says he accounted his Law keeping as "rubbish" because according to the Law he was dead in his sin. So we must work for union with God through the Holy Spirit to keep the Law.

I love the Law, loved it enough to invest some of my study time into it. You have to see it for what it is to understand it. It`s a document designed to govern Israel as a theocracy and no one keeps the Law regardless of what they claim. There is no Jerusalem Temple so it isn`t possible to keep it and the curse of the Law will kill all those who depend on it for their righteousness.

Portions of it relate to governing (i.e. rock throwing) , public health ( i.e. taste, touch, handel not), and of course the priesthood. These Laws are all set aside due to the dissolution of Israel in 70AD.

What is left in place is the moral Law which is called the righteousness of the Law by Apostle Paul. Those who are Spirit led will begin keeping this Law and will know these Laws in their heart. Here is a list compiled by Paul. We don`t have to have the list but it`s helpful to know it intellectualy. If you are living out what this passage tells us to do you are in compliance with the moral laws that are seen within the Moses document.

Galatians 5

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
 
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Incidentally in reference to scholars. I hold them at the same esteem as our Lord and Savior did and does.

For translation purposes they are necessary for me because I only know English. I don`t really use them for anything else.
 
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