Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

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GenemZ

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So, you started out your post very arrogantly by comparing amils to Antifa. And then you talked about humility. Honestly, that was a bit confusing. At least you did say "I speak for myself".

So, which do you really want to be, arrogant or humble? If humble then let's talk. I would like to discuss these things in a respectful way while not forgetting that we're on the same team as Christians. I know we're passionate about what we believe but it isn't as if we're arguing over whether or not Jesus died and rose again from the dead, so let's try to tone things down a bit. I'm speaking to myself (and other amils) here as well.

Who's side are you on?

The Amils are pushing a dogmatic false narrative. They are here to be trained on how to maintain an illusion dogmatically. Its spiritual warfare.

I heard enough of their clan's idea. Its clever, but stupid. They get caught in a contradiction, and move on as if nothing was said. And, then demand that we answer something on their terms.

They will be shocked in the Rapture because we can not lose our salvation.


I'll stick around to reinforce those who know better and oppose their false narrative. Its "fake news!" On the other hand. Romans 8:28 is in play. It has helped me better understand President Trump and what he must go through daily.

And, BTW. I am a spiritual Jew. Yidel Ben Myer is my name.
 
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GenemZ

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Excellent post once again. Every poster should read this. It is a comprehensive and watertight rebuttal.
Thank you CNN. MSNBC was using the same narrative as well. Maybe you should congratulate them also.
 
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GenemZ

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Promoting false teaching is both wishful thinking and a chance to show off how superior one is with their skills of deception. We are told by the Word that they have a superiority complex that has found a way to use the Word of God to their ego-need's satisfaction.

If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction
of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and
understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies
and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk,
evil suspicions."
1 Tm 6:3-4​


The challenge false doctrine presents can help those growing to better learn more of the Word than they had before as the Lord guides them into a real defense. But? Evil remains evil. The only cure. Repentance.

As sin needs confession. Evil needs repentance. A change in ones thinking.

Amils have no desire for the truth. They desire only to establish a position to reveal their own natural superiority. They show disdain for Premils. The Premils are to them "deplorables." Amazing how its a parallel to what we find in power politics.

so be it....
 
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BABerean2

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The Amils are pushing a dogmatic false narrative. They are here to be trained on how to maintain an illusion dogmatically. Its spiritual warfare.

Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?


Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?

Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10

Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?
Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?
Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?
If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?

John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.
Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?

Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?
John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?
John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.

Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?
How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?
Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…

Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?
Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?

Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?
When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?

What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?
Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?

Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?

Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.
Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?
What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?

What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?

Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.
 
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GenemZ

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Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?


Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?

Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10

Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?
Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?
Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?
If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?

John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.
Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?

Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?
John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?
John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.

Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?
How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?
Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…

Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?
Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?

Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?
When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?

What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?
Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?

Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?

Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.
Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?
What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?

What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?

Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.
Why do you ask so many questions at once? Do you really expect an answer that someone else can even follow? What if you had ten errors in there? Do you know how long it would take to unravel just one?

Have you experienced the Book of Revelation being taught from the Greek? Not just teaching something from word studies. Actual exegesis. Line upon line. Greek tenses and isagogics as it should be done to get it right. Very few are qualified for that task. God will provide just the same for those who sense the need.

It took my pastor over 700 hours to teach the book of Revelation in depth and in great detail. Its a great place to start if you really want to learn what was being said. Too much guessing and being dogmatic about it going on here.

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

Look here and scroll down to New Testament studies. Revelation is listed.

https://rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf

Some here are fighting over nothing. Wasting precious time that they should be redeeming. .

Please... God did not intend for his Bible to be obscured as English translations are often guilty of causing. Paul used to teach from the texts. So did all the apostles. The hearers all knew and understood the Greek tenses and Hebrew shades of meaning. We do not.

God will provide for those who truly seek His face.

grace and peace!
 
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BABerean2

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R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

Look here and scroll down to New Testament studies. Revelation is listed.

https://rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf


Anyone who claims modern Jews will be saved outside of the Church is promoting one of the greatest errors in the history of our faith.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Promoting false teaching is both wishful thinking and a chance to show off how superior one is with their skills of deception. We are told by the Word that they have a superiority complex that has found a way to use the Word of God to their ego-need's satisfaction.

If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction
of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and
understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies
and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk,
evil suspicions."
1 Tm 6:3-4​


The challenge false doctrine presents can help those growing to better learn more of the Word than they had before as the Lord guides them into a real defense. But? Evil remains evil. The only cure. Repentance.

As sin needs confession. Evil needs repentance. A change in ones thinking.

Amils have no desire for the truth. They desire only to establish a position to reveal their own natural superiority. They show disdain for Premils. The Premils are to them "deplorables." Amazing how its a parallel to what we find in power politics.

so be it....

I will translate: I have no biblical support for my own false teaching so I will trash the messengers of biblical truth.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why do you ask so many questions at once? Do you really expect an answer that someone else can even follow? What if you had ten errors in there? Do you know how long it would take to unravel just one?

Have you experienced the Book of Revelation being taught from the Greek? Not just teaching something from word studies. Actual exegesis. Line upon line. Greek tenses and isagogics as it should be done to get it right. Very few are qualified for that task. God will provide just the same for those who sense the need.

It took my pastor over 700 hours to teach the book of Revelation in depth and in great detail. Its a great place to start if you really want to learn what was being said. Too much guessing and being dogmatic about it going on here.

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

Look here and scroll down to New Testament studies. Revelation is listed.

https://rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf

Some here are fighting over nothing. Wasting precious time that they should be redeeming. .

Please... God did not intend for his Bible to be obscured as English translations are often guilty of causing. Paul used to teach from the texts. So did all the apostles. The hearers all knew and understood the Greek tenses and Hebrew shades of meaning. We do not.

God will provide for those who truly seek His face.

grace and peace!

It is ironic that the one who does not have one single proof text is the one who is writing off everyone who disagrees with him. That is ridiculous.

Can you furnish us with one scripture that teaches a rapture of the church followed by a 7-year trib followed by a 3rd coming of Christ? I will not hold my breath.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Who's side are you on?
I'm amil in case it wasn't obvious from the things I've said in this thread, but I really am on the side of Christians in general. So, I'd like to think I'm on your side (as a fellow Christian) when it comes to what matters the most.

I'm also on the side of hoping we can discuss these things respectfully without resorting to personal insults.

The Amils are pushing a dogmatic false narrative. They are here to be trained on how to maintain an illusion dogmatically. Its spiritual warfare.

I heard enough of their clan's idea. Its clever, but stupid. They get caught in a contradiction, and move on as if nothing was said. And, then demand that we answer something on their terms.
Well, so much for that.

They will be shocked in the Rapture because we can not lose our salvation.
What does losing our salvation have to do with this thread exactly?

I'll stick around to reinforce those who know better and oppose their false narrative. Its "fake news!" On the other hand. Romans 8:28 is in play. It has helped me better understand President Trump and what he must go through daily.
Looks like you have no interest in discussing this respectfully. So be it.

And, BTW. I am a spiritual Jew. Yidel Ben Myer is my name.
I'd say nice to meet you, but your attitude is so rude and condescending that I can't do that in a sincere way.
 
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I wasn't making a direct comparison, I was merely giving an example of how clueless and stubborn people can be despite what's going on around them.

You take the approach of interpreting a very symbolic book literally. I don't, so I don't believe it's talking about literal "demon locusts" (what are demon locusts?) that look like horses with human faces and lion's teeth that literally sting people and so on. John was seeing a vision of symbolic things. The locusts aren't real. What we need to do is figure out what the locusts symbolize rather than picturing literal locusts that somehow look like horses but also have human faces (boggles my mind how anyone can take that literally).
Well, I don't necessarily think that it's specifically demon locusts, that's just the way John describes them. I'm a little flexible on that, one way I interpret it through a modern lens is perhaps drones. But that is speculation, so I usually default to what the word actually says. John was trying to describe what he saw, in terms that he thought people could understand, plus John was well versed in scripture and he probably saw as I do, Joel 2:2-10, so things like the appearance of horses may have been included based on that description from Joel.
Either way, something absolutely horrible happens for 5 months that makes people want to kill themselves but they can't. This is the wrath of God, which God has not appointed us to (1 Thessalonians 5:9), the Indignation that God has invited us to hide from (Isaiah 26:19-21). so the rapture takes place before it, and then comes the wrath of God, which it seems you believe the basic principles on but you interpret the wrath of God as taking an instant, and consider the 7 trumpets and vials to be "tribulations". But Tribulations are persecution, from other humans. Imprisonments and beheadings are the tribulation, starvation from being unable to buy food. These judgements, delivered by angels, are judgements from God, not tribulations.

Even if it was all literal as you think, look what it says at the end of Rev 9.

Rev 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

So, despite the human-faced locusts tormenting people and the fire-breathing horses with lion's heads killing a bunch of people, the rest refuse to repent and still go on living like they did before. And, you say it doesn't make sense to match this up with the days of Noah when people were eating, drinking, and marrying right up until the day the flood waters came and the ark door was shut? What is the difference?

There's a difference between they don't repent, and they are living as normal.
They're in a state of extreme distress, they are gnawing their tongues for pain and seeking death and being unable to find it.
In this state of suffering it is very easy to be unrepentant, to be angry with God. Admittedly in my own suffering I've been angry with God, it's very easy to be angry with God when you're in a state of suffering, knowing that He is sovereign and could stop it, but chooses not to. It can be easy to blaspheme God in your suffering, that was Satan's goal in the book of Job. Job was just an exceptional man to be our example in suffering, but he is not the norm. People who don't even believe in God will blaspheme God in their misfortune, knowing that SOMEONE has control of it and has raised their hand against them. Sometimes they cry out to God for the suffering to end but don't repent of their sins, or have faith in Him.
But that doesn't mean they're still planning weddings. I think it'd be impossible to plan weddings in the state of the world after the trumpets and vials are going. Frankly the 4 horsemen will upend the world a lot and there might not be weddings being planned in those days. But at some point, the antichrist "solves" those prior problems, and provides means of living a normal life, like the mark of the beast.
Before the rapture but after the mark of the beast as I read it in Revelation 14, there is an angel warning against people taking the mark, that they'd be subject to the wrath of God and eternal punishment in hell if they did. Which means, not everyone in the world will have taken the mark, even among non believers.

By the way, Rev 9 is about Satan's little season. Notice that the abyss is opened at the fifth trumpet. It makes sense to me that this is when the beast (Rev 17:8 indicates that he would have been in the abyss up to that point) and the dragon are loosed from the abyss to wreak havoc during Satan's little season while uniting a number of people as the sand of the seashore against the church (Rev 20:7-9).

In fact, I believe Rev 9 even mentions the dragon (Satan) rising from the abyss because I believe the angel king of the abyss has to be a reference to the king/leader of all angels and scripture indicates that is Satan (Matt 25:41, Rev 12:9). I believe Abaddon/Apollyon (Hebrew/Greek) are just other names for Satan. If you wonder why John didn't just call the king of the abyss Satan, I would suppose it's for the same reason that he called him the dragon sometimes. And that reason was because he was speaking of symbolic things that he saw (like locusts with horse's heads and human faces and horses with lion's heads), not literal.
I don't think that Abbadon is Satan, but certainly a leader of fallen angels.
While not scripture the book of Enoch describes a group of angels that were imprisoned in the pit around the time of Noah's flood, and it is given that they'd be imprisoned there for I think 70 generations, after which they'd be released. Interesting timing at least.

as for Satan, Satan has been going up to heaven to accuse us before God basically all of creation. He only loses that access in what you think is a past event, and I think is a future event (and I think it's future because he knows his time is short after it happens, so his efforts become very intensified, hence the 70th week events and 4 horsemen 2000 years.. is not a short amount of time). We know he still had that access in Job, at the very least because that's exactly what he was doing in Job. so he hasn't been imprisoned since the fall of man. He still had stewardship of the earth in Jesus' lifetime because he offered it to Jesus. In revelation 13, after he was cast out of heaven, he still maintained that stewardship which he delegated to the beast (Revelation 13:2)
As of right now, the amill assumption that Satan no longer has stewardship of the world or any power to deceive, is false. Islam is one of the largest deceptions by Satan the world has ever seen, even incorporating Jesus and the gospel into it, but changing the name to Isa (Esau?) son of Maryam, and demoting Him to a prophet. Funnily enough they also teach that their version of Jesus will return before the apocalypse, but they give a different return, in Damascus, robed in yellow. 1.6 billion people are prepared for a false prophet. If that's lacking power to deceive the nations I'm stunned.

I stand by what I said before. You need passages to have all the same details to relate them together. I don't take that kind of approach. As long as our approaches to interpreting the book are so different we will never even come close to interpreting it the same.
It depends. If it's omitted detail I can still consider them the same things. If it's contradicting details I cannot. I see Matthew 24's return of Jesus happening in Revelation 6 despite not being specific about the gathering of the elect, because the other details match, the sun and moon darken, and the son of man is visible in the clouds, and the tribes of the earth mourn.
The details in Revelation 19 on the other hand, contradict, on a horse rather than in the clouds, and the tribes of the earth are prepared for battle rather than mourning, and it'd be omitting the darkening of the sun and moon, and the gathering of the elect. Nothing matches.

As for Rev 6, I don't see your point. Once the sixth seal is open then it's time for the wrath of the Lamb to come down, so I believe that Jesus would no longer be sitting on His throne at that point since He leaves heaven to deliver His wrath.
So you understand that the 6th seal is the return of Christ, and yet you still think it's the same as Revelation 19's coming on a white horse, even though what's described is contradicting? You see that the 6th seal is the beginning of the wrath of God but don't see the trumpets as the wrath of God?

To be honest, I'm not even really talking about the millennium mostly in this thread what I'm trying to get you to grasp is that the wrath of God takes time, it is not instant, and God's people are rescued before it.
I'm trying to get you to understand that the Parousia is also not instant, that the Parousia is a presence, and everything that happens from the moment Jesus appears in the clouds, is the second coming, up through eternity.
Isaiah 63 shows us an image of Jesus (before His incarnation Isaiah saw Him), his clothes soaked in blood, after having spent a year trampling down sinners in His wrath.
The Millennium itself, while I believe in it, is of lesser importance to my eschatology for the simple reason that it is only explicitly mentioned in Revelation 20. I believe it, yet I do not have a second witness that I can unequivocably show in scripture.
But witness as to a pre wrath rapture is littered throughout scripture, the wrath of God taking more than just an instant, is littered throughout scripture. I can bring many witnesses to that.
I do believe that once a pre wrath rapture is seen however, that it is harder to take a non literal meaning of the Millennium. You don't see pre trib amillennialists or pre wrath amillennialists very much because in both of those positions they accept that the first resurrection is an end times resurrection at the rapture, and a second resurrection is also end times but 1000 years later, and is before judgement, but after the destruction of the world by fire.
Amillennialism requires viewing the first resurrection to have taken place back with Christ, and for it to not be an end time resurrection, and because of that, they only have the second resurrection left, meaning they have to take a post wrath view, and view the wrath of God as being instantaneous, and also leads to the absolutely silly belief that God resurrects everyone who's ever died then returns and destroys the entire planet instantly. Then He'd have to resurrect all the people He'd just killed again in order for them to stand judgement. But Hebrews 9:27 doesn't have people dying twice and then standing judgement, but once.
There are problems with this view aside from that in that it appoints the people of God to God's wrath aside from the 144k, which contradicts Paul. It also contradicts as I've pointed out, Isaiah 34 and 63 which has Jesus doing His wrath over a year. It also requires very loose interpretations of Revelation 6, 14, and 19 to equate them as all the same despite having contradicting differences. It requires separating the Trumpets from the seals despite the 7th seal involving giving the angels the trumpets. It makes the 7th seal simply be a nothingburger.

if you understand the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God, understand the wrath of God takes time, well, then the Millennium itself has to be reconsidered. If you can still accept an amillennial view without the elements of preterism and post wrath rapture position I digress.
But I think that without preterism and a post wrath rapture position, amillennialism is impossible.
 
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GenemZ

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Why are you so nasty?

Its not nasty to the ones who know the truth.

Because those who understand the problem with Amils understand the humor and truth in what I said. Its "fake news." Determined and dogmatically presented "fake news."

The topic of Amil is forbidden in many Christian forums for good reason.


Amillennialism


Amillenarism or Amillennialism (from Latin mille, one thousand; "a" being a negation prefix) is a type of chillegorism which teaches that there will be no millennial reign of the righteous on earth. Amillennarists interpret the thousand years symbolically to refer either to a temporary bliss of souls in heaven before the general resurrection, or to the infinite bliss of the righteous after the general resurrection.[1]

This view in Christian eschatology does not hold that Jesus Christ will physically reign on the earth for exactly 1,000 years. This view contrasts with some postmillennial interpretations and with premillennial interpretations of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation.

The amillennial view regards the "thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20 as a symbolic number, not as a literal description; amillennialists hold that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age. Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent reign in the new heaven and new earth.

Many proponents dislike the term "amillennialism" because it emphasizes their differences with premillennialism rather than their beliefs about the millennium. "Amillennial" was actually coined in a pejorative way by those who hold premillennial views. Some proponents also prefer alternate names such as nunc-millennialism (that is, now-millennialism) or realized millennialism, although these other names have achieved only limited acceptance and usage.

Amillennialism - Wikipedia
 
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BABerean2

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Its not nasty to the ones who know the truth.

Because those who understand the problem with Amils understand the humor and truth in what I said. Its "fake news." Determined and dogmatically presented "fake news."

The topic of Amil is forbidden in many Christian forums for good reason.


Amillennialism


Amillenarism or Amillennialism (from Latin mille, one thousand; "a" being a negation prefix) is a type of chillegorism which teaches that there will be no millennial reign of the righteous on earth. Amillennarists interpret the thousand years symbolically to refer either to a temporary bliss of souls in heaven before the general resurrection, or to the infinite bliss of the righteous after the general resurrection.[1]

This view in Christian eschatology does not hold that Jesus Christ will physically reign on the earth for exactly 1,000 years. This view contrasts with some postmillennial interpretations and with premillennial interpretations of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation.

The amillennial view regards the "thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20 as a symbolic number, not as a literal description; amillennialists hold that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age. Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent reign in the new heaven and new earth.

Many proponents dislike the term "amillennialism" because it emphasizes their differences with premillennialism rather than their beliefs about the millennium. "Amillennial" was actually coined in a pejorative way by those who hold premillennial views. Some proponents also prefer alternate names such as nunc-millennialism (that is, now-millennialism) or realized millennialism, although these other names have achieved only limited acceptance and usage.

Amillennialism - Wikipedia


Anyone who thinks Christ will be conducting funeral services for mortals killed in accidents 500 years after the Second Coming, needs to read the New Testament again.


How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

.
 
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GenemZ

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Anyone who thinks Christ will be conducting funeral services for mortals killed in accidents 500 years after the Second Coming, needs to read the New Testament again.


How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

.
You don't know your Bible! Its the problem here. No mortals will be killed in an accident during the Millennium!

The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea." Isa 11:7-9
 
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BABerean2

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You don't know your Bible! Its the problem here. No mortals will be killed in an accident during the Millennium!

The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea." Isa 11:7-9


I know the passage above is about the removal of the curse, which would be during the New Heavens and New Earth.


Do you think Jesus was confused in Matthew 25:31-46?




.
 
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GenemZ

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I know the passage above is about the removal of the curse, which would be during the New Heavens and New Earth.


Do you think Jesus was confused in Matthew 25:31-46?

.

You believe 'infants' can be born in eternity where everyone has immortality????!

Eternity will be without time. Nothing will age. Nothing can die.

In contrast to your erroneous view? There will be no infants in eternity to even play near a cobra's den. Everyone will be adult and never age. To say some will forever be infants, is to say God wants retarded people in His kingdom.


The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea."
Isa 11:7-9​
 
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BABerean2

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You believe 'infants' can be born in eternity where everyone has immortality????!

Eternity will be without time. Nothing will age. Nothing can die.

In contrast to your erroneous view? There will be no infants in eternity to even play near a cobra's den. Everyone will be adult and never age.


The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea."
Isa 11:7-9​

Where is the "birth" of an infant in the text?


Why are you ignoring Matthew 25:31-46?




.
 
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Marilyn C

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Premil teaches that there will be righteous converts still in their fallen mortal bodies during their millennium who are distinguished from the immortals. They also argue many of these will be converted in their so-called future millennium. Surely Premils are going to have to create another catching away (“rapture”) for the "mortal believers" that get saved during their millennium in order to allow them to enter the glorified state and eternal bliss? After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

So, when do all the millennial mortal converts get glorified? Please give Scripture. Surely there needs to be another glorification of the "the mortal saints" after Satan's little season to make them fit and prepared for the eternal state? After all, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (1 Corinthians 15:50).


Surely there needs to be another “day of redemption” after the “day of redemption” at the second coming (Luke 21:28, Romans 8:19-23 and Ephesians 1:13-14) in order to redeem the bodies of the millennial mortals that put their trust in Christ?

Good point there SG. That is why I do not believe that the Body of Christ will come back to earth after it has been raptured. We do not go into the millennium on earth. That is not taught in scripture and a big mistake by those who also believe in the premillennium.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Well, I don't necessarily think that it's specifically demon locusts, that's just the way John describes them. I'm a little flexible on that, one way I interpret it through a modern lens is perhaps drones. But that is speculation, so I usually default to what the word actually says. John was trying to describe what he saw, in terms that he thought people could understand, plus John was well versed in scripture and he probably saw as I do, Joel 2:2-10, so things like the appearance of horses may have been included based on that description from Joel.

Either way, something absolutely horrible happens for 5 months that makes people want to kill themselves but they can't. This is the wrath of God, which God has not appointed us to (1 Thessalonians 5:9),
I believe you are clearly mistaken here. Why would Christians need to be removed from the earth when the locusts are only allowed to harm "those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads" (Rev 9:5). They are not allowed to harm born again Christians, in other words. Why do you think that the church will have been raptured already at that point when it clearly indicates that God's people (Christians) will be on the earth at that time and will be kept from the harm of the symbolic locusts?

the Indignation that God has invited us to hide from (Isaiah 26:19-21). so the rapture takes place before it
Again, why would the rapture need to take place at that time when the locusts have been ordered not to harm Christians? There's no need to be taken off the earth when they can only do what God allows them to and the text indicates that they will not be allowed to harm Christians.

and then comes the wrath of God, which it seems you believe the basic principles on but you interpret the wrath of God as taking an instant, and consider the 7 trumpets and vials to be "tribulations". But Tribulations are persecution, from other humans. Imprisonments and beheadings are the tribulation, starvation from being unable to buy food. These judgements, delivered by angels, are judgements from God, not tribulations.
I get that things happen before the day Christ returns, but the argument I have made is that passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 do not speak of anything that happens prior to the day He returns (other than that scoffers would be scoffing at the idea of Him returning and that believers should "watch and be sober" before that day.

The main focus of those passages is on the actual day He returns. So, in Paul and Peter's minds "the day of the Lord" is the day Christ returns. In your mind you see it as being a certain period of time where certain things happen before the day He returns. But, I'd rather stick with their understanding of the day of the Lord when discussing those passages instead of getting them confused with other passages in Revelation or elsewhere that speak of the days prior to His return.

When it comes to the amil vs premil debate in particular (rather than pre-trib vs pre-wrath vs post-trib), the focus is more on what happens on the actual day Christ returns because what happens that day determines how we should understand Revelation 20.

There's a difference between they don't repent, and they are living as normal.
How so? Look again at what it says at the end of the chapter after things had gotten significantly worse:

Rev 6:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

This very clearly says that they do not stop what they normally do which is worship demons and other things, murder people, practice magic arts, sexual immorality and theft. They may be unhappy with their lives, but they still keep on doing what they normally do. And, they have no clue that Christ is about to come and take vengeance on them, which matches up with what Jesus indicated in the Olivet Discourse. They will be doing what they normally do without having any idea of what's about to come upon them. That's the point. Jesus mentioned them eating and marrying and such, but the Rev 6 text includes the evil things they normally do as well. In both cases, the point is that they will be doing what they normally do right up until the day Christ comes to take His vengeance on them.

They're in a state of extreme distress, they are gnawing their tongues for pain and seeking death and being unable to find it.
But, still all the while doing what they normally do while refusing to repent.

In this state of suffering it is very easy to be unrepentant, to be angry with God. Admittedly in my own suffering I've been angry with God, it's very easy to be angry with God when you're in a state of suffering, knowing that He is sovereign and could stop it, but chooses not to. It can be easy to blaspheme God in your suffering, that was Satan's goal in the book of Job. Job was just an exceptional man to be our example in suffering, but he is not the norm. People who don't even believe in God will blaspheme God in their misfortune, knowing that SOMEONE has control of it and has raised their hand against them. Sometimes they cry out to God for the suffering to end but don't repent of their sins, or have faith in Him.
Sure. I think we would all agree on this.

But that doesn't mean they're still planning weddings.
Where is your proof of that? Even though it speaks of symbolic locusts stinging people and whatnot, I believe that's all symbolic so I don't think it's actually physical torment they go through, but rather spiritual and mental. But, there are plenty of people today who are experiencing spiritual or physical torment but they still get married and do a lot of the things that people normally do.

I think it'd be impossible to plan weddings in the state of the world after the trumpets and vials are going. Frankly the 4 horsemen will upend the world a lot and there might not be weddings being planned in those days. But at some point, the antichrist "solves" those prior problems, and provides means of living a normal life, like the mark of the beast.

Before the rapture but after the mark of the beast as I read it in Revelation 14, there is an angel warning against people taking the mark, that they'd be subject to the wrath of God and eternal punishment in hell if they did. Which means, not everyone in the world will have taken the mark, even among non believers.
I just believe your literal approach to interpreting the book is not the right approach. We're just not going to agree with the meaning of the text as long as our approaches to interpreting it are so different.

But, I would like to comment on something else you said here. You are talking about nonbelievers not having the mark of the beast? How does that line up with what it says here:

Rev 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

When you read further in the chapter you can see that everyone who worships the beast receives the mark of the beast. Which makes sense since it would not make sense for someone to worship the beast and at the same time somehow refuse to receive its mark. And, look who Rev 13:8 describes as being the ones who worship the beast (and, by implication, receive its mark)? ALL whose names are not written in the book of life. With that in mind, how do you have some whose names are not written in the book of life (that describes non believers, right?) as not taking the mark? It seems to me that only those who have their names written in the book of life (believers) would refuse to receive the mark.

I don't think that Abbadon is Satan, but certainly a leader of fallen angels.

While not scripture the book of Enoch describes a group of angels that were imprisoned in the pit around the time of Noah's flood, and it is given that they'd be imprisoned there for I think 70 generations, after which they'd be released. Interesting timing at least.
He is referred to as the king and angel of the abyss. Not a king of the abyss. THE king and THE angel of the abyss. Not a leader of fallen angels. THE leader. I'm sure you would agree that Satan is THE leader of the fallen angels (Matt 25:41, Rev 12:9)

I say that means it must be Satan is the king of the abyss because I believe all angels are in chains in the abyss, which is a symbolic place since it's a place where symbolic entities like the beast and the dragon are (Rev 17:8, Rev 20:1-3). My evidence for that is here:

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwellingthese he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell (Greek: Tartarus) putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment.

This talks about the fallen angels being put in everlasting chains of darkness long ago "when they sinned" and "abandoned their proper dwelling". I believe this is speaking of all fallen angels because they all "sinned". That's why they are fallen.

This leads to another point I want to make about angels being bound in chains. We know that despite this they are still able to roam about and try to tempt and deceive people. So, it should be clear that the chains are symbolic. Just like the chain that binds the dragon (Satan). Premils thinking that these symbolic chains prevent Satan and his angels from doing anything at all is just not the proper way to understand what it means for them to be symbolically or spiritually bound with chains.

Note: It wouldn't let me submit my entire post, so I'm dividing it into two parts.
 
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