Reasons to not vote Left or to vote Left

timothyu · Oct 18, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
But as long as all of you vote for Biden only to stop Trump or vote for Trump only to stop Biden we are guaranteed to get one of these sordid candidates.

Now you know why they play the game this way. The money that funds both parties wins either way but if it were logical candidates they would have to buy off the whole system and if the cards are no longer stacked in their favour, they may not achieve the results they want. No one has a greater stake in the present system than the moneychangers. Thy even take your kids and send them off to war and die to protect their system while there own kids stay home to be groomed to take over.

Unqualified · Oct 18, 2020

Christians should be United on these three issues: support for Israel, pro life anti-terrorism...........

zippy2006 · Oct 18, 2020

JackRT said:
My question was less about where the problem originated and more about how we can rid ourselves of a politicized judiciary --- at every level.

In the U.S. competing interpretive philosophies is the biggest problem. Conservatives and liberals literally receive different training in law school.

timothyu · Oct 18, 2020

Unqualified said:
Christians should be United on these three issues: support for Israel, pro life anti-terrorism.

I disagree. They should be united on these three... the Gospel of the Kingdom, the will of the Father before the will of man , and loving all as self. You have Christians cheering on the wrong world.

timothyu · Oct 18, 2020

zippy2006 said:
In the U.S. competing interpretive philosophies is the biggest problem. Conservatives and liberals literally receive different training in law school.

So the US has not only corrupted Christianity but also law common to the world to make it over in their own image?

zippy2006 · Oct 18, 2020

Everything we touch turns to mold. :sorry:

timothyu · Oct 18, 2020

zippy2006 said:
Everything we touch turns to mold.

That is why we were banished from the Garden. It wasn't because God wanted to build condos.

NxNW · Oct 18, 2020

zippy2006 said:
Biden can't tell us whether he will try to pack the Supreme Court. Huge red flag in my opinion.

It may not need it.

timothyu · Oct 18, 2020

NxNW said:
It may not need it.

Even if he wins the threat will be there in their minds. But if reason prevails he will back down knowing that the SC will not eliminate their precious medical thingy but only one clause of it. They just made it sound like Armageddon to panic people into voting. Seriously, have commercials on tv become so entertaining that people have forgotten they are being manipulated?

KCfromNC · Oct 19, 2020

MorkandMindy said:
Reasons not to vote Left

In this election, there's only one - you want another 4 years of president Donald Trump.

chevyontheriver · Oct 19, 2020

timothyu said:
Even if he wins the threat will be there in their minds. But if reason prevails he will back down knowing that the SC will not eliminate their precious medical thingy but only one clause of it. They just made it sound like Armageddon to panic people into voting. Seriously, have commercials on tv become so entertaining that people have forgotten they are being manipulated?

I learned about propaganda when I was overseas and listened to short wave radio for the news. I listened to Radio Moscow and Voice of America for their jazz. Both had excellent jazz. It was a real competition between them. So I would get to hear the news as well. As shaped by both sides. When Vietnam and China were at war I would listen to Voice of Vietnam and Radio Beijing (or maybe back then it was Radio Peiking). Anyway, they would regularly describe the exact same battle in totally contrary ways. No way to tell which was lying but both of them probably were. Truth is the first casualty of war.

Truth is the casualty in this political war. It's a propaganda war and it's destroying the fabric of the nation. I think we need to throw them all out because I don't see how they can ever work with each other again.

chevyontheriver · Oct 19, 2020

KCfromNC said:
In this election, there's only one - you want another 4 years of president Donald Trump.

Four more years of the Devil that you know vs a Socialist America? I want neither, but the Socialist America will be very difficult to recover from and take way more than four years if it will even be possible.

How about this? We dump them both in this election. Vote for anybody else. I'm voting for Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party. A centrist. I'm not soiling my hands by voting for Trump, nor voting for the Socialist ruin of America. But you vote for Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum if you are so moved. Then we are guaranteed to get one of them because your vote cancels mine.

MorkandMindy · Oct 19, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
I learned about propaganda when I was overseas and listened to short wave radio for the news. I listened to Radio Moscow and Voice of America for their jazz. Both had excellent jazz. It was a real competition between them. So I would get to hear the news as well. As shaped by both sides. When Vietnam and China were at war I would listen to Voice of Vietnam and Radio Beijing (or maybe back then it was Radio Peiking). Anyway, they would regularly describe the exact same battle in totally contrary ways. No way to tell which was lying but both of them probably were. Truth is the first casualty of war.

Truth is the casualty in this political war. It's a propaganda war and it's destroying the fabric of the nation. I think we need to throw them all out because I don't see how they can ever work with each other again.

It was hoped that the Internet would bring the truth to shine into every dark corner, and although it did, a lot of the Internet is written by rooms full of people with one employer, often a country.
So:

'As truth did abound lies did much more abound'

MorkandMindy · Oct 19, 2020

I try to get around that problem, of being swamped by garbage, by starting with the simple question of 'what do we need', and then asking how to achieve it.

MorkandMindy · Oct 19, 2020

The common argument of socialism is bad [insert fallacy here] therefore we have to be a capitalist country, is pretty much like saying 'eating grass is bad therefore we should eat trees'.

WonbyOneanddone · Oct 19, 2020

MorkandMindy said:
Reasons not to vote Left

This is always the big one in my experience: 'The Soviet Union collapsed in 1989 proving that communism doesn't work.'

It wasn't communist. The aim of the dominant party in the USSR was to transform it into a communist Soviet state, but this aim was never achieved. There were no communist countries in the whole twentieth century though many Socialist ones.

It didn't collapse. The Presidents of the three largest countries in the USSR met and negotiated a separation. The reason I understand was so that each could run their own countries instead of having Gorbachev over them, having already gained a promise from the US that neither NATO nor the US would take advantage of the loss of unity and move into former Warsaw Pact areas.

Part of the problem here is, when referring to the socialism Bernie Sanders speaks of, what are you referring too? For example, he refers to both Venezuela and Germany as socialist, but they are very different economically. Germany does not own and run production like Venezuela, therefore, they have very different outcomes.

But that is what worries me about Leftists in the US like Bernie. They don't distinguish between the two, which leaves you guessing as to what they have in mind exactly. I'm not even sure at times he knows the difference as he praises despotic regimes like Cuba and Venezuela and the former USSR while attacking the current US as despotic and failed.

Vylo · Oct 19, 2020

Mixing economies always seem to be more successful. A regulated capitalist society or a nordic style mixed system have so far shown to be our best models. Democratic socialism fares well, but often slides into state socialism (see Venezuela). laissez faire capitalism similarly fares well, but slides into to crony capitalism (see the US on its current trajectory). I find the key is to set up social safety nets, keep too many monopolies from existing (or severely tax them so others may compete more readily), and to pit private and public services against each other in the market. Having worked in both sectors, without other breathing down their neck, it is easy for one sector to run amok.

MorkandMindy · Oct 19, 2020

Vylo said:
... laissez faire capitalism similarly fares well, ...

There are literally tons of newspaper articles and a fair number of books claiming it does, but it doesn't.

The US economy entered a dive as soon as laissez faire capitalism arrived with Ronald Reagan and has remained in one.

It has been disguised for a very long time by the enormous mineral wealth the US has, and the same applies to the UK, so they have gotten away with running huge deficits for decades, but where as European socialism has worked, both the US and UK have been bleeding badly for a very long time.

And we haven't just been losing money for decades but the low paid jobs that have been sent overseas have resulted in destruction of lives within the country. Socialism does not just allow the economy to work better it also improves social cohesion.

MorkandMindy · Oct 19, 2020

It is more accurate to compare a country with itself like US before and after the arrival of neoliberalism, or Russia before and after neoliberalism.

Comparing the US with Germany is fairly valid because neither one runs the other and both have diverse economies, the Venezuela economy is going to go mainly with oil prices and tells us about oil prices and failure to diversify, not that kindness is unaffordable.

chevyontheriver · Oct 19, 2020

MorkandMindy said:
The common argument of socialism is bad [insert fallacy here] therefore we have to be a capitalist country, is pretty much like saying 'eating grass is bad therefore we should eat trees'.

I would be happy with a Distributivist country, unhappy with a socialist country, and tolerant of a capitalist country if some safeguards remain. And we do have some economic safeguards which make this not a purely capitalist country.

Reasons to not vote Left or to vote Left

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