Calvinist limited love for mankind

I consider Calvinism as about as crazy as believing in a Flat Earth. Why would God give us commands and get upset at those who disobeyed His commands if He has the power to just snap His fingers and make them mindless puppets to do His will? If God saves some (based on no condition), why doesn't He save them all? It appears really heartless to let others perish if God has the ability to save men by some kind of forced election.

In addition, why is there a judgment if Calvinism is true? That would be like kicking a dog across the room like a football because it is sick and it has uncontrollable pooping problem (When the master can simply take the dog to the vet and help it any time). But the master does not care. He just wants to kick the poor animal and be cruel. That's not the love of God I know the Bible teaches and the love of God I have experienced in my life. Calvinism is nuts - IMO. I think people believe in Calvinism because it fits their own personality or lifestyle. It's not in any way biblical or moral.

God would never get upset in the Bible if God elects everyone to be a certain way.
God only gets upset when He knows that they had a right choice to make and they did not make that right choice. In other words, in the world of Calvinism, God simply is just mindlessly getting angry for no real good reason. For why is He upset? He can just snap His fingers and boom, everyone is saved and no longer a sinner and He would be happy. It's like a child named Chad who decides to get angry at his clay figurines and he starts to smash them for no real rhyme or reason. He is just mad because he wants to be mad.

“Chad smash you puny clay figures!” “Me hates you clay figurines that are red! “But I like you blue clay figurines over here.”

His father across the room speaks up.

“Son, is there a reason why you hate the red clay figurines?”

Chad replies,
“No.”

This should end all discussions on Calvinism on the face of the planet right now, but of course the illogical movement of Calvinism will continue (despite it's many self imploding contradictions).

Jesusthekingofking said:

Calvinist emphasis on God's predestination that sometime make me feel that these Christian defined love in their own way. Can they go around and say to people "Jesus love you"? I'm not a calvinist, I won't say the Father damned those who God didn't predetermined to be saved, I affirm Jesus died for all and desire all to be saved, those who rejected the gospel go to hell. So by my conscience I can Jesus love the sinners. But for Calvinist they would say God hate sin and the sinners. So what is love to calvinist? Does God love only the elect? So God's love is limited in that sense?

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Yes, God's love is pointless unless we're drawn by it to freely love back in return-or not. Love doesn't exist apart from the freedom to possess and express it. To know God is to know lavish unconditional love for all humankind, even as He allows us to set our own conditions-to ultimately reject His love if we prefer.

Bible Highlighter said:

God would never get upset in the Bible if God elects everyone to be a certain way.
God only gets upset when He knows that they had a right choice to make and they did not make that right choice. In other words, in the world of Calvinism, God simply is just mindlessly getting angry for no real good reason. For why is He upset? He can just snap His fingers and boom, everyone is saved and no longer a sinner and He would be happy. It's like a child named Chad who decides to get angry at his clay figurines and he starts to smash them for no real rhyme or reason. He is just mad because he wants to be mad.

“Chad smash you puny clay figures!” “Me hates you clay figurines that are red! “But I like you blue clay figurines over here.”

His father across the room speaks up.

“Son, is there a reason why you hate the red clay figurines?”

Chad replies,
“No.”

This should end all discussions on Calvinism on the face of the planet right now, but of course the illogical movement of Calvinism will continue (despite it's many self imploding contradictions).

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Not a fan of Calvin I`m guessing

RickReads said:

Not a fan of Calvin I`m guessing

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Indeed. It's why Eternal Security exists (and that to me is also a much hated belief), as well.

Cormack said:

O Lord have mercy, it’s a real one! jk jk jk

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Yep! You would be surprised how many people are in fact what is known as 5 pointers, just do not like to admit it!

And I do not follow reformed theology.
I am a dispensational believer who follows th eliteral, historical, grammatical understanding of Scripture!

Jesusthekingofking said:

Calvinist emphasis on God's predestination that sometime make me feel that these Christian defined love in their own way. Can they go around and say to people "Jesus love you"? I'm not a calvinist, I won't say the Father damned those who God didn't predetermined to be saved, I affirm Jesus died for all and desire all to be saved, those who rejected the gospel go to hell. So by my conscience I can Jesus love the sinners. But for Calvinist they would say God hate sin and the sinners. So what is love to calvinist? Does God love only the elect? So God's love is limited in that sense?

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God has common grace or common love for the world. He has specific love for his elect alone, whom Christ died for. As such, I never tell people that God specifically loves them and I've always hated the phrase God loves the sinner and hates the sin. Instead I think it far more important for people to confront the fact that they are evil and in need of a savior. Telling them Jesus loves them out of the gate gives people a reason not to repent, after all they're already loved.

fhansen said:

Yes, God's love is pointless unless we're drawn by it to freely love back in return-or not. Love doesn't exist apart from the freedom to possess and express it. To know God is to know lavish unconditional love for all humankind, even as He allows us to set our own conditions-to ultimately reject His love if we prefer.

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I would say that God's love is meaningless if he casts those he loves into Hell. There's no loving way to do that. If, instead, we say that God does not love those whom he casts into Hell, then God does not love everyone, and the Calvinist position is thus supported.

As for our ability to freely accept or reject God, the Calvinist position does not deny that, and if you think it does, then you don't understand Calvinism.

So much goes into the decision of a human, from the wiring of the brain, to conditioning, to chemistry, and none of it is freely chosen by the human. The final decision made by any person is going to be the product of influences well beyond that person's control. The "free will" of a person ends up being controlled by a variety of things. Little difference exists between the Free-Will people and the Calvinists, in that regard. The only real difference is in the thinking that God bothered to get involved.

Redwingfan9 said:

God has common grace or common love for the world. He has specific love for his elect alone, whom Christ died for. As such, I never tell people that God specifically loves them and I've always hated the phrase God loves the sinner and hates the sin. Instead I think it far more important for people to confront the fact that they are evil and in need of a savior. Telling them Jesus loves them out of the gate gives people a reason not to repent, after all they're already loved.

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Nope. 1 John 2:2 says,
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

You have to change words like ALSO, and WHOLE WORLD to mean something other than what they say in order to make your unbiblical belief work.

Redwingfan9 said:

God has common grace or common love for the world. He has specific love for his elect alone, whom Christ died for. As such, I never tell people that God specifically loves them and I've always hated the phrase God loves the sinner and hates the sin. Instead I think it far more important for people to confront the fact that they are evil and in need of a savior. Telling them Jesus loves them out of the gate gives people a reason not to repent, after all they're already loved.

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The problem with Calvinism is what I described above. There is no real love for the non-elect by God if He just randomly based on no condition elects some to reprobation and elects others to salvation. It's like an angry child with a bunch of clay figurines smashing some and not others for no real rhyme or reason. Love in this kind of picture is non existent.

Redwingfan9 said:

God has common grace or common love for the world. He has specific love for his elect alone, whom Christ died for. As such, I never tell people that God specifically loves them and I've always hated the phrase God loves the sinner and hates the sin. Instead I think it far more important for people to confront the fact that they are evil and in need of a savior. Telling them Jesus loves them out of the gate gives people a reason not to repent, after all they're already loved.

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This is the love of God.

“But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” (Romans 10:21).

Why is God stretching forth his hands to Israel who are disobedient?
In the world of Calvinism: If God wanted them saved, He would just snap His fingers and boom, they would be saved. There would be no such thing as stretching out His hands to a disobedient people He chosen. This is why Calvinism is nonsense. Calvinism forces a person to do backflip twists with Scripture at every turn.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

I would say that God's love is meaningless if he casts those he loves into Hell. There's no loving way to do that. If, instead, we say that God does not love those whom he casts into Hell, then God does not love everyone, and the Calvinist position is thus supported.

As for our ability to freely accept or reject God, the Calvinist position does not deny that, and if you think it does, then you don't understand Calvinism.

So much goes into the decision of a human, from the wiring of the brain, to conditioning, to chemistry, and none of it is freely chosen by the human. The final decision made by any person is going to be the product of influences well beyond that person's control. The "free will" of a person ends up being controlled by a variety of things. Little difference exists between the Free-Will people and the Calvinists, in that regard. The only real difference is in the thinking that God bothered to get involved.

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In Calvinism, God is loving some and hating most others based on no real rhyme or reason. That is what it boils down to. God is specifically creating people to suffer as their only choice. God wants many people to suffer. God sets out to hate most people as a choice He makes and it has nothing to do with what they did. That is what Calvinism is saying. In Calvinism, verses like John 3:16 that says that “God so loved the world” is not true. It should say that “God so loved the elect” instead if Calvinism is true. But the Bible does not say what Calvinists want John 3:16 to say. Calvinists have to re-write John 3:16 to their own liking in order to make it fit their theology.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

I would say that God's love is meaningless if he casts those he loves into Hell. There's no loving way to do that. If, instead, we say that God does not love those whom he casts into Hell, then God does not love everyone, and the Calvinist position is thus supported.

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Yes, love allows that freedom, or else God cannot be love. All of God's creation is created good; it cannot be otherwise due to His own nature. Plus the story of creation tells us the same. So its only people failing to live up to their potential by abusing the gift of free will (also a good) that allows us to fail at our own intended purpose, to choose evil over good, no God over God.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

As for our ability to freely accept or reject God, the Calvinist position does not deny that, and if you think it does, then you don't understand Calvinism.

So much goes into the decision of a human, from the wiring of the brain, to conditioning, to chemistry, and none of it is freely chosen by the human. The final decision made by any person is going to be the product of influences well beyond that person's control. The "free will" of a person ends up being controlled by a variety of things. Little difference exists between the Free-Will people and the Calvinists, in that regard. The only real difference is in the thinking that God bothered to get involved.

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Oh, ok. So man is nothing more than a sort of automaton or amoral beast anyway at the end of the day, despite Calvinist objections to this objection. No real moral accountability here, which actually means that God is directly, willfully, responsible for all evil. At the end of the day, removing free will from the equation subverts the gospel quite radically-not in a good or beneficial way. It's subtle, or can seem so, but fortunately most Christians simply live as if what they choose to do on a day by day basis, counts. We know the importance of this intuitively despite wrong gospels that skew things a bit too heavily to one side or the other.

Bible Highlighter said:

Nope. 1 John 2:2 says,
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

You have to change words like ALSO, and WHOLE WORLD to mean something other than what they say in order to make your unbiblical belief work.

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John is largely writing to Jewish Christians and when he says the whole world he means that salvation wasn't just for Jews but for people of the whole world. In fact, we know from scripture that salvation comes to people of all nations. In order to believe that John means that Jesus saves all people, including people who hate him or never claim faith or ever come into contact with Christians, you have to literally ignore dozens of passages that speak of God saving his elect and the marks of true faith. In fact, much of John's epistles are irrelevant if Jesus literally dies for the sins of all people.

Redwingfan9 said:

John is largely writing to Jewish Christians and when he says the whole world he means that salvation wasn't just for Jews but for people of the whole world. In fact, we know from scripture that salvation comes to people of all nations. In order to believe that John means that Jesus saves all people, including people who hate him or never claim faith or ever come into contact with Christians, you have to literally ignore dozens of passages that speak of God saving his elect and the marks of true faith. In fact, much of John's epistles are irrelevant if Jesus literally dies for the sins of all people.

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“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9).

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

Why are they perishing? It is because God electing them to reprobation? No. They are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. The word “might” implies a possibility. In the world of Calvinism: There is no MIGHT be saved. It doesn't exist. Yet, my Bible says otherwise.

In addition, 2 Peter 2:1 says,
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Here we see that the Lord bought those who are false prophets and false teachers. Granted, they are not saved based on the heresies they teach. But the Bible says they were also bought by the Lord. Both truths have to be accepted. In other words, a person can bought by the Lord and yet unsaved by their sinful actions or false beliefs.

Bible Highlighter said:

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9).

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

Why are they perishing? It is because God electing them to reprobation? No. They are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. The word “might” implies a possibility. In the world of Calvinism: There is no MIGHT be saved. It doesn't exist. Yet, my Bible says otherwise.

In addition, 2 Peter 2:1 says,
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Here we see that the Lord bought those who are false prophets and false teachers. Granted, they are not saved based on the heresies they teach. But the Bible says they were also bought by the Lord. Both truths have to be accepted. In other words, a person can bought by the Lord and yet unsaved by their sinful actions or false beliefs.

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You want it both ways. You want Jesus death on the cross to save all people and yet your position says that Jesus death alone is not sufficient because men are slack. In other words, you believe that man determines his own salvation which means Jesus death is not sufficient to save.

Redwingfan9 said:

You want it both ways. You want Jesus death on the cross to save all people and yet your position says that Jesus death alone is not sufficient because men are slack. In other words, you believe that man determines his own salvation which means Jesus death is not sufficient to save.

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First, notice how you did not address the words in the verses in post #75 that refutes Calvinism.
Second, the Bible teaches Provisional Atonement as a part of God's plan of salvation for mankind.

Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

Think of like a person writing a check to cancel out your debts. But it is up to you to receive this gift and to pay off your creditors. The debt has been paid by another so to speak, but you have to apply it personally to your life.

Biblical Proof?

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin” (1 John 1:7).

Here we see that a person has to walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light (i.e. in the light of God the Father) in order that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. So we have to love the brethren in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin (Sanctification). Granted, one has to first be saved by God's grace by seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, and believing that He died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation, too (Justification).

Jesusthekingofking said:

man is saved by faith, so our free will / choice have a role in that.

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Your probably aware of this, but Calvinists believe that God not only gifts grace, but he also gifts faith to the elect, as well. But this does not make any sense because Ephesians 2 refers to one gift, and not plural gifts. Clearly Paul is refering to God's grace as the gift. For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son. In addition, we are told to “continue in the faith” according to Scripture. This statement in Scripture does not make any sense because Calvinists will take faith being a gift that is forever forced upon a person.

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).