Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

sovereigngrace · Oct 19, 2020

Jamdoc said:
There's 2 parallels. showing a chronology of Great Tribulations (6, 13), Jesus in the Clouds/Rapture (6, 14), Wrath of God (6:17 through chapter 11, and Chapter 14:19-20 through chapter 19), and Final Judgement (depicted briefly in chapter 11, depicted in more detail in chapter 20). The last events in the wrath of God are given in more detail in the second vision in describing the fall of babylon and armageddon.

You've looked at it as Jesus coming back towards the end of Chapter 16, and see Chapter 18 as a non continuous narrative, but in Chapter 16:19, Babylon comes into remembrance, so no, it's not just an instantaneous everything explodes the instant Jesus comes back.
Events happen, time passes.

The events of chapter 6 and chapter 14, which depict Jesus in the clouds are VERY DIFFERENT than the event in chapter 19, at the end of the wrath.
You have chosen to interpret all descriptions as hyperbole.
I do not.

You are totally wrong here. That is why you struggle with Revelation. We are looking at various recaps of the same game and climactic conclusion of this world that forbids both Pretrib and Premil.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

Jamdoc said:
John 5:24-26

This is a resurrection of those who hear and believe on the Son, and it takes place at the rapture.

How are you coming to that conclusion? Let's look at the passage very carefully.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

There are a couple things that I believe you missed in this passage. Notice in verse 24 that it says those who believe in Christ have (present tense) everlasting life and "is passed from death unto life" (again, present tense). This is not speaking of a future event, this is speaking of the reality of what occurs when someone puts their faith in Christ and is born again.

Notice in verse 25 that Jesus said "The hour is coming, and now is....". You seem to have missed the "and now is" part. He was talking about a current reality at the time and something that would be an ongoing reality from then on. He was not talking about a bodily resurrection in those verses. He was talking about the same thing Paul wrote about here:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

When we become saved we go from being dead in trespasses and sins to alive in Christ. That is a spiritual resurrection and is something that happens to people on an ongoing basis. Which is exactly what Jesus was talking about in John 5:24-26.

Jesus did not refer to a bodily resurrection until verses 28 and 29.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice that this time Jesus only said "the hour is coming" rather than "the hour is coming, and now is". That is because this time he was only referring to a future event rather than an ongoing event. And He made it clear that only one hour or time is coming when all of the dead will be raised. Not two hours/times. That means the lost will be resurrected at the same time as those who are saved.

Jamdoc · Oct 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
How are you coming to that conclusion? Let's look at the passage very carefully.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

There are a couple things that I believe you missed in this passage. Notice in verse 24 that it says those who believe in Christ have (present tense) everlasting life and "is passed from death unto life" (again, present tense). This is not speaking of a future event, this is speaking of the reality of what occurs when someone puts their faith in Christ and is born again.

Notice in verse 25 that Jesus said "The hour is coming, and now is....". You seem to have missed the "and now is" part. He was talking about a current reality at the time and something that would be an ongoing reality from then on. He was not talking about a bodily resurrection in those verses. He was talking about the same thing Paul wrote about here:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

When we become saved we go from being dead in trespasses and sins to alive in Christ. That is a spiritual resurrection and is something that happens to people on an ongoing basis. Which is exactly what Jesus was talking about in John 5:24-26.

Jesus did not refer to a bodily resurrection until verses 28 and 29.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice that this time Jesus only said "the hour is coming" rather than "the hour is coming, and now is". That is because this time he was only referring to a future event rather than an ongoing event. And He made it clear that only one hour or time is coming when all of the dead will be raised. Not two hours/times. That means the lost will be resurrected at the same time as those who are saved.

Paul doesn't give a resurrection of both good and evil in 1 Thessalonians 4. He spoke of a future bodily resurrection of those dead in Christ. That's what you're missing by trying to smash it all into 1 day at the end of the 70th week.

Jamdoc · Oct 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are totally wrong here. That is why you struggle with Revelation. We are looking at various recaps of the same game and climactic conclusion of this world that forbids both Pretrib and Premil.

Revelation 6 and 14 showing coming in the clouds, is coming FOR the saints
Revelation 19 is coming WITH the saints.
They're not at all the same thing and if you compare scripture to scripture you'll see that but you've chosen to think that John took artistic liberties to describe the same event 2 totally different ways.

The fact that people try to see the coming of Christ as a singular instant event is what has pretribbers so confused too. Because they think Revelation 19, that's the coming of Christ, rapture has to happen pre trib because Revelation 19 sounds NOTHING like 1 Thessalonians 4. They've caught the fact that 2 different events are described and so they try to smash together Matthew 24's depiction with Revelation 19 (even though they are nothing alike and Matthew 24 has WAY more in common with 1 Thessalonians 4), and keep 1 Thessalonians 4 as a "secret rapture" even though it itself describes a lot of noise and Jesus coming down from heaven so... yeah they're all sorts of confused.
You're all sorts of confused too because you're not comparing scripture to scripture and associating ALL depictions of the 2nd coming as the same event even though it's described very differently across a few different passages.

... and ultimately you still can't address how it's like the days of Noah or Lot where they're eating and drinking and marrying, living normal lives, right up until the rapture hits then the wrath comes. Because you're applying the wrath as happening before He comes.
As you're so fond of saying it forbids Post Trib (well, not really post trib, but the traditional post trib position which is really post wrath)
You cannot have normal lives while the world is falling apart over the last year or so, even covid 19, a relatively mild "plague" has upended the world greatly.

GenemZ · Oct 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Whatever way you package it up: you have billions of phonies who are playing at it in your millennium. This is after Jesus being in their midst ruling with "a rod of iron" unchallenged for 1000 years?

Yup... and, keep in mind. Jesus also allowed many phony angels within his midst until Lucifer finally weeded them out too.

There are things you so not yet understand, and at present have assumed expectations that limit you. God is in the process of exposing souls .. whether it be good, or for bad. Why? God created real lives, not robots.

It can take a while to sink in what God must do to allow for each one of us to discover for ourselves what God already knows about us. For when He judges all.. All will be in agreement with His assessment. If He did not allow for this long drawn out process, the judgement could never be resolved as long as we remain ignorant of our true feelings and thoughts. Its why God also allows for believers, who choose to, to serve false doctrines as they wish.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

genez said:
Well... 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

There will be no "clouds to meet the Lord in" after the universe and the earth are burned up in the massive nuclear fusion. That passage can not apply to what you claim.

It's funny that you think you proved something here. Not even close. Like a typical premil, you interpret almost everything literally. I believe the "clouds" refer to angels. Just like what we see here:

Matt 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

In case you don't think the "clouds of heaven" refer to angels, look at this verse (which is about His ascension to heaven rather than 2nd coming):

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

What do you think, that Jesus can only return on a cloudy day?

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 2 Pet 3:10

Its about the end of this planet as we know it. During the Millennium the planet will have been transformed, not utterly destroyed.

That is speaking of the day Christ returns. He said Himself that He will be coming like a thief:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

The context of 2 Peter 3:3-13 centers around the day that Christ will come back to bring vengeance down upon those who reject Him. It is speaking of the same event Paul referenced here:

2 Thess 1:6-10
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

The fire Peter speaks about coming down on the entire earth will come down on the day Jesus returns. The context of what he was talking about is established in verses 3 and 4 where he talks about scoffers scoffing at the idea of Christ coming again. Then right after that he compared the fire that will come down at His coming with the flood that occurred long ago.

After hinting that it may be a long time before Christ returns because of God's desire for everyone to repent (but not a long time to God), Peter then describes how the fire will come down and destroy the heavens and the earth in verses 10-12.

What he says after that in verse 13 is something that I think premils do not take to heart.

13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

What promise was Peter referring to here? It's not hard to determine that.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Peter was referring to the promise of Jesus coming again. And he said in keeping with the promise of Jesus coming again, "we are looking forward to a new heaven and new earth, where righteousness dwells". He didn't say we are looking forward to a temporal earthly millennial kingdom, we are looking forward to the eternal new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells and where "there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain" (Rev 21:1-4).

And, your kind keeps ignoring that there will still be births and death during that first new heavens and earth.

My kind?

Births and death during that first new heavens and new earth? Where does scripture teach that there's more than one new heavens and new earth? It absolutely does not. Why would there be? What a strange thing to believe. If you read post #24 in this thread you should see that Isaiah 65:17-25 is not speaking of anything different from 2 Peter 3:13 and Rev 21:1-4.

Resorting to seeing them as being two new heavens and 2 new earths instead of taking the time to see how to reconcile the 2 passages that clearly speak of the same thing makes no sense to me.

Tell me, if Isaiah 65:17-25 speaks of a different new heavens and new earth than 2 Peter 3:13 and Rev 21:4, how can it be that there would still be death but no crying during this earthly millennial time period?

Isa 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.

Do you think when people die during that time that no one will cry and mourn about it? How would that make any sense?

Notice in verse 17 that it says "the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind". That concept seems familiar. I wonder why? Oh yeah, because that's what it indicates here as well:

Rev 21:Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Notice that it doesn't say that the first new heaven and first new earth had passed away. And it doesn't say the second earth and second heaven pass away. It's the first earth and first heaven which is speaking of the current heaven and current earth that we're living on right now. Another piece of evidence against your doctrine.

In eternity there can be no concept of age since nothing dies ever. No need to compare any persons age to anyone else.

“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed."

The word "accursed" can not in our vocabulary once we are all in eternity!

I think sovereigngrace did a great job of explaining how that verse should be understood in post #24. Please read it again (or for the first time if you haven't read it yet).

It's funny that you interpret that to be saying there will be death at that time and, yet, the preceding verse indicates there would be no crying at that time (just like Rev 21:4). How do you reconcile your understanding of there being death at that time but no crying? Will everyone not care about anyone else at that point or something? "You said my mom and dad died? Oh well. Too bad for them. Whatever.".

That is why its a silly conclusion to think that Isaiah 60:20 speaks of the finalized eternal new heavens and earth.

Not nearly as silly as thinking it's saying there will be death when the preceding verse says there will be no weeping or crying.

You're team is dead wrong. There will be Two New heavens and new Earth. Just like our present heavens and earth replaced the prehistoric heavens and earth.

It's very easy to say things like that, but much harder to prove. You definitely have not proven anything here.

GenemZ · Oct 19, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Revelation 6 and 14 showing coming in the clouds, is coming FOR the saints
Revelation 19 is coming WITH the saints.

Interesting point. If the Rapture is the coming for His saints? How can all mankind be in eternity at that point? If later on He will come WITH His saints to witness the slaughter and end to the Tribulation?

Amils have a problem with correlation. Being determined and careless with denials does not lead them to victory. At best it only serves to perplex those who had no problem with the correct correlation. They are dismissive of anything that gets in the way of their desired outcome. I would almost venture to say it reminds me of how Antifa inverts reasoning and in their own eyes while committing error while claiming the name of righteousness.

Only the Holy Spirit could straighten that out...

God only gives grace to the humble. We all must learn humility. Sometimes we learn humility by God allowing us to become arrogant in our ignorance. I speak for myself and know it to be true. It all depends on how far we have matured for what God will tolerate and allow for.

grace and peace...

GenemZ · Oct 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
It's funny that you think you proved something here. Not even close. Like a typical premil, you interpret almost everything literally. I believe the "clouds" refer to angels

Yet it says we are to be returning with the Lord and his angels. Why the ambiguity all of a sudden for when we are gathered in the Rapture? You are not even funny.

Blur things together much? Pureed doctrinal thinking seems to be your forte.

We are going to be gathered in the clouds above the earth."In the air." It does not say we will be gathered into the clouds of/from heaven. You just make stuff up. Its obvious.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be
with the Lord forever." - 1 Thes 4:17

If clouds meant angels it would have to say caught up together with them by saying with clouds. Not, "the clouds." For angels are normally not referred to as clouds in the Bible. They are never referred to as "the clouds" as if it were another way to speak of angels.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Revelation 6 and 14 showing coming in the clouds, is coming FOR the saints
Revelation 19 is coming WITH the saints.
They're not at all the same thing and if you compare scripture to scripture you'll see that but you've chosen to think that John took artistic liberties to describe the same event 2 totally different ways.

He comes with the souls of the saints in heaven (the dead in Christ) and for the saints still alive on earth at the same time, as the following passage indicates:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

There it is. It really couldn't be more clear. One event where Jesus both comes for and with the saints.

The fact that people try to see the coming of Christ as a singular instant event is what has pretribbers so confused too. Because they think Revelation 19, that's the coming of Christ, rapture has to happen pre trib because Revelation 19 sounds NOTHING like 1 Thessalonians 4. They've caught the fact that 2 different events are described and so they try to smash together Matthew 24's depiction with Revelation 19 (even though they are nothing alike and Matthew 24 has WAY more in common with 1 Thessalonians 4), and keep 1 Thessalonians 4 as a "secret rapture" even though it itself describes a lot of noise and Jesus coming down from heaven so... yeah they're all sorts of confused.
You're all sorts of confused too because you're not comparing scripture to scripture and associating ALL depictions of the 2nd coming as the same event even though it's described very differently across a few different passages.

Just because 2 passages describing the 2nd coming don't have all the same details doesn't mean they're not speaking of the same event. That is a very weak argument that I can't believe people try to make (you're not the only one).

... and ultimately you still can't address how it's like the days of Noah or Lot where they're eating and drinking and marrying, living normal lives, right up until the rapture hits then the wrath comes. Because you're applying the wrath as happening before He comes.
As you're so fond of saying it forbids Post Trib (well, not really post trib, but the traditional post trib position which is really post wrath)
You cannot have normal lives while the world is falling apart over the last year or so, even covid 19, a relatively mild "plague" has upended the world greatly.

Are people, despite all the chaos going on in the world (not just Covid-19, but lots of financial distress and other things as well), not still eating and drinking and marrying despite that? Yes, they are. So, I don't see how you have much of a point here.

You underestimate how clueless unbelievers can be about warning signs of impending doom. Look at how many people are acting with this deadly virus still spreading around. Over a million people in the world have died from it, but many people are acting like it's nothing.

We, as believers, can recognize the warning signs of the coming wrath of God, but unbelievers can not. They are blind to the things that warn of Jesus coming again.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

genez said:
Interesting point. If the Rapture is the coming for His saints? How can all mankind be in eternity at that point? If later on He will come WITH His saints to witness the slaughter and end to the Tribulation?

Amils have a problem with correlation. Being determined and careless with denials does not lead them to victory. At best it only serves to perplex those who had no problem with the correct correlation. They are dismissive of anything that gets in the way of their desired outcome. I would almost venture to say it reminds me of how Antifa inverts reasoning and in their own eyes while committing error while claiming the name of righteousness.

Only the Holy Spirit could straighten that out...

God only gives grace to the humble. We all must learn humility. Sometimes we learn humility by God allowing us to become arrogant in our ignorance. I speak for myself and know it to be true. It all depends on how far we have matured for what God will tolerate and allow for.

grace and peace...

So, you started out your post very arrogantly by comparing amils to Antifa. And then you talked about humility. Honestly, that was a bit confusing. At least you did say "I speak for myself".

So, which do you really want to be, arrogant or humble? If humble then let's talk. I would like to discuss these things in a respectful way while not forgetting that we're on the same team as Christians. I know we're passionate about what we believe but it isn't as if we're arguing over whether or not Jesus died and rose again from the dead, so let's try to tone things down a bit. I'm speaking to myself (and other amils) here as well.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

genez said:
Yet it says we are to be returning with the Lord and his angels. Why the ambiguity all of a sudden for when we are gathered in the Rapture? You are not even funny.

Blur things together much? Pureed doctrinal thinking seems to be your forte.

We are going to be gathered in the clouds above the earth."In the air." It does not say we will be gathered into the clouds of/from heaven. You just make stuff up. Its obvious.

Is this an example of the humility you were talking about in a later post? :scratch:

If this is the way you plan to talk to me then our discussion is over. If you instead wish to talk to me with respect, then I'm willing to continue the discussion.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

genez said:
Where are they going to be if they do not have a resurrected body? If not transformed? They will perish when the universe and earth are destroyed by nuclear fusion. Everything of this earth will have been eliminated. That includes bodies made from the "elements " of the earth. That demands having a transformed body before all is to be burned up!

So, where was it you said that scripture speaks about that?

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Paul doesn't give a resurrection of both good and evil in 1 Thessalonians 4. He spoke of a future bodily resurrection of those dead in Christ. That's what you're missing by trying to smash it all into 1 day at the end of the 70th week.

Why did he have to mention both there in order for both to happen at the same time? That kind of argument makes no sense. Not every passage that speaks of the second coming has all the same details related to it. Frankly, it's silly to expect that to be the case.

But, what Paul did do in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 is contrast what will happen to living believers at that time and living unbelievers. Believers who are alive at the time will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Unbelievers, in contrast, will have destruction come upon them suddenly and "they will not escape".

Jamdoc · Oct 19, 2020

genez said:
Interesting point. If the Rapture is the coming for His saints? How can all mankind be in eternity at that point? If later on He will come WITH His saints to witness the slaughter and end to the Tribulation?

Amils have a problem with correlation. Being determined and careless with denials does not lead them to victory. At best it only serves to perplex those who had no problem with the correct correlation. They are dismissive of anything that gets in the way of their desired outcome. I would almost venture to say it reminds me of how Antifa inverts reasoning and in their own eyes while committing error while claiming the name of righteousness.

Only the Holy Spirit could straighten that out...

God only gives grace to the humble. We all must learn humility. Sometimes we learn humility by God allowing us to become arrogant in our ignorance. I speak for myself and know it to be true. It all depends on how far we have matured for what God will tolerate and allow for.

grace and peace...

Yeah.. it's pretty telling in Revelation 14:14-20, which is a picture very much like the wheat and tares parable, the harvest at the end of the world. The son of man on the cloud, note who does the reaping in each case. The first reaping is by Jesus on the cloud. Note that this group is not thrown into the winepress of the wrath of God. I interpret it as this group is raptured, the wheat that is gathered into the barn (heaven), then the next reaping is done by an angel. This "harvest" is put through the wrath of God, "gathered up and burned". The Revelation 6 references aren't so rapture specific, you have to compare the events of it to Matthew 24:29-31 to see it. But it is implied there. Neither event is anything like Revelation 19, where there is no gathering of saints no sun and moon darkening
So Jesus collected His elect, then comes the wrath of God, right after it. It's consistent with the pictures of the rapture, Noah's Ark, Lot being saved from Sodom.
Note that Noah was in the Ark for over a year. It does not mean the wrath of God is instantaneous as traditional post trib, or amills believe. The wrath of God is a period of time, there are lengths of judgements within it that last months, maybe even over a year making it a year and a half or longer. But bare minimum 5 months.
Something both pretrib and traditional posttrib do is they do not separate the great tribulations and wrath of God as 2 separate things. Because of this, they think it's an all or nothing bet. Either the rapture takes place before any of the seals or tribulations, or after all the wrath of God has been poured out, leading to inconsistency in scripture on both sides. Post trib sees us enduring God's wrath which is inconsistent with 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Pre trib sees us not witnessing the signs that Jesus told us to watch for such as the abomination of desolation, which is inconsistent with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

I know that pretribbers like to cite 2 Thessalonians 2:7 as evidence of pretrib rapture but the context is totally off, because Paul had just gotten done telling them that the coming of our Lord was at the same time as the gathering to Him. If Paul was teaching pre trib, He'd have said "the day of the Lord has not come because I'm still here" and that'd end that right there. Paul was looking to the second coming of Christ, not a secret rapture, and in that context, Paul was teaching against imminency by giving 2 conditions that have to be met first, and also against preterism, which Paul had to teach against many times, such as in 2 Timothy 2:16-18

But of key evidence to me that the wrath of God and great tribulations are not the same thing, is Revelation 6:9-11 where the martyred saints are crying out to God asking WHY hasn't He begun His wrath yet, which means all the 5 seals at that point, were not the wrath of God. Then Revelation 6:17. That's the clearest demarcation you can get in the bible as when the wrath of God begins.

Jamdoc · Oct 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
He comes with the souls of the saints in heaven (the dead in Christ) and for the saints still alive on earth at the same time, as the following passage indicates:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

There it is. It really couldn't be more clear. One event where Jesus both comes for and with the saints.

Just because 2 passages describing the 2nd coming don't have all the same details doesn't mean they're not speaking of the same event. That is a very weak argument that I can't believe people try to make (you're not the only one).

Are people, despite all the chaos going on in the world (not just Covid-19, but lots of financial distress and other things as well), not still eating and drinking and marrying despite that? Yes, they are. So, I don't see how you have much of a point here.

You underestimate how clueless unbelievers can be about warning signs of impending doom. Look at how many people are acting with this deadly virus still spreading around. Over a million people in the world have died from it, but many people are acting like it's nothing.

We, as believers, can recognize the warning signs of the coming wrath of God, but unbelievers can not. They are blind to the things that warn of Jesus coming again.

Covid is weak compared to demon locusts that sting people and make them want to commit suicide from the pain, and sores breaking out on everyone who took the mark of the beast and all the water in the world turning to blood.
There won't be marrying during those events.

also, Matthew 24, Revelation 6, Revelation 14, Jesus is in the clouds, Revelation 6 specifies that He's on a throne.
Not a horse.
That's not just a missing detail that's a completely different thing He's sitting on.
Also nothing about the tribes of the earth mourning and asking the rocks to fall on them in Revelation 19.. no they're prepared for battle.
This is different events

sovereigngrace · Oct 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
It's funny that you think you proved something here. Not even close. Like a typical premil, you interpret almost everything literally. I believe the "clouds" refer to angels. Just like what we see here:

Matt 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

In case you don't think the "clouds of heaven" refer to angels, look at this verse (which is about His ascension to heaven rather than 2nd coming):

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

What do you think, that Jesus can only return on a cloudy day?

That is speaking of the day Christ returns. He said Himself that He will be coming like a thief:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

The context of 2 Peter 3:3-13 centers around the day that Christ will come back to bring vengeance down upon those who reject Him. It is speaking of the same event Paul referenced here:

2 Thess 1:6-10
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

The fire Peter speaks about coming down on the entire earth will come down on the day Jesus returns. The context of what he was talking about is established in verses 3 and 4 where he talks about scoffers scoffing at the idea of Christ coming again. Then right after that he compared the fire that will come down at His coming with the flood that occurred long ago.

After hinting that it may be a long time before Christ returns because of God's desire for everyone to repent (but not a long time to God), Peter then describes how the fire will come down and destroy the heavens and the earth in verses 10-12.

What he says after that in verse 13 is something that I think premils do not take to heart.

13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

What promise was Peter referring to here? It's not hard to determine that.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

Peter was referring to the promise of Jesus coming again. And he said in keeping with the promise of Jesus coming again, "we are looking forward to a new heaven and new earth, where righteousness dwells". He didn't say we are looking forward to a temporal earthly millennial kingdom, we are looking forward to the eternal new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells and where "there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain" (Rev 21:1-4).

My kind?

Births and death during that first new heavens and new earth? Where does scripture teach that there's more than one new heavens and new earth? It absolutely does not. Why would there be? What a strange thing to believe. If you read post #24 in this thread you should see that Isaiah 65:17-25 is not speaking of anything different from 2 Peter 3:13 and Rev 21:1-4.

Resorting to seeing them as being two new heavens and 2 new earths instead of taking the time to see how to reconcile the 2 passages that clearly speak of the same thing makes no sense to me.

Tell me, if Isaiah 65:17-25 speaks of a different new heavens and new earth than 2 Peter 3:13 and Rev 21:4, how can it be that there would still be death but no crying during this earthly millennial time period?

Isa 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.

Do you think when people die during that time that no one will cry and mourn about it? How would that make any sense?

Notice in verse 17 that it says "the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind". That concept seems familiar. I wonder why? Oh yeah, because that's what it indicates here as well:

Rev 21:Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Notice that it doesn't say that the first new heaven and first new earth had passed away. And it doesn't say the second earth and second heaven pass away. It's the first earth and first heaven which is speaking of the current heaven and current earth that we're living on right now. Another piece of evidence against your doctrine.

I think sovereigngrace did a great job of explaining how that verse should be understood in post #24. Please read it again (or for the first time if you haven't read it yet).

It's funny that you interpret that to be saying there will be death at that time and, yet, the preceding verse indicates there would be no crying at that time (just like Rev 21:4). How do you reconcile your understanding of there being death at that time but no crying? Will everyone not care about anyone else at that point or something? "You said my mom and dad died? Oh well. Too bad for them. Whatever.".

Not nearly as silly as thinking it's saying there will be death when the preceding verse says there will be no weeping or crying.

It's very easy to say things like that, but much harder to prove. You definitely have not proven anything here.

Excellent post once again. Every poster should read this. It is a comprehensive and watertight rebuttal.

sovereigngrace · Oct 19, 2020

genez said:
Yet it says we are to be returning with the Lord and his angels. Why the ambiguity all of a sudden for when we are gathered in the Rapture? You are not even funny.

Blur things together much? Pureed doctrinal thinking seems to be your forte.

We are going to be gathered in the clouds above the earth."In the air." It does not say we will be gathered into the clouds of/from heaven. You just make stuff up. Its obvious.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be
with the Lord forever." - 1 Thes 4:17

If clouds meant angels it would have to say caught up together with them by saying with clouds. Not, "the clouds." For angels are normally not referred to as clouds in the Bible. They are never referred to as "the clouds" as if it were another way to speak of angels.

Ok, so, i believe there are several reasons why your argument does not abide scriptural scrutiny.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

sovereigngrace · Oct 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Why did he have to mention both there in order for both to happen at the same time? That kind of argument makes no sense. Not every passage that speaks of the second coming has all the same details related to it. Frankly, it's silly to expect that to be the case.

But, what Paul did do in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 is contrast what will happen to living believers at that time and living unbelievers. Believers who are alive at the time will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Unbelievers, in contrast, will have destruction come upon them suddenly and "they will not escape".

Exactly. No supposed 7 years tribulation there. No period of tribulation in threat all. It must be forced into the sacred text.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Covid is weak compared to demon locusts that sting people and make them want to commit suicide from the pain, and sores breaking out on everyone who took the mark of the beast and all the water in the world turning to blood.
There won't be marrying during those events.

I wasn't making a direct comparison, I was merely giving an example of how clueless and stubborn people can be despite what's going on around them.

You take the approach of interpreting a very symbolic book literally. I don't, so I don't believe it's talking about literal "demon locusts" (what are demon locusts?) that look like horses with human faces and lion's teeth that literally sting people and so on. John was seeing a vision of symbolic things. The locusts aren't real. What we need to do is figure out what the locusts symbolize rather than picturing literal locusts that somehow look like horses but also have human faces (boggles my mind how anyone can take that literally).

Even if it was all literal as you think, look what it says at the end of Rev 9.

Rev 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

So, despite the human-faced locusts tormenting people and the fire-breathing horses with lion's heads killing a bunch of people, the rest refuse to repent and still go on living like they did before. And, you say it doesn't make sense to match this up with the days of Noah when people were eating, drinking, and marrying right up until the day the flood waters came and the ark door was shut? What is the difference?

By the way, Rev 9 is about Satan's little season. Notice that the abyss is opened at the fifth trumpet. It makes sense to me that this is when the beast (Rev 17:8 indicates that he would have been in the abyss up to that point) and the dragon are loosed from the abyss to wreak havoc during Satan's little season while uniting a number of people as the sand of the seashore against the church (Rev 20:7-9).

In fact, I believe Rev 9 even mentions the dragon (Satan) rising from the abyss because I believe the angel king of the abyss has to be a reference to the king/leader of all angels and scripture indicates that is Satan (Matt 25:41, Rev 12:9). I believe Abaddon/Apollyon (Hebrew/Greek) are just other names for Satan. If you wonder why John didn't just call the king of the abyss Satan, I would suppose it's for the same reason that he called him the dragon sometimes. And that reason was because he was speaking of symbolic things that he saw (like locusts with horse's heads and human faces and horses with lion's heads), not literal.

also, Matthew 24, Revelation 6, Revelation 14, Jesus is in the clouds, Revelation 6 specifies that He's on a throne.
Not a horse.
That's not just a missing detail that's a completely different thing He's sitting on.
Also nothing about the tribes of the earth mourning and asking the rocks to fall on them in Revelation 19.. no they're prepared for battle.
This is different events

I stand by what I said before. You need passages to have all the same details to relate them together. I don't take that kind of approach. As long as our approaches to interpreting the book are so different we will never even come close to interpreting it the same.

As for Rev 6, I don't see your point. Once the sixth seal is open then it's time for the wrath of the Lamb to come down, so I believe that Jesus would no longer be sitting on His throne at that point since He leaves heaven to deliver His wrath.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 19, 2020

chad kincham said:
You need to research that further. The earth doesn’t disappear and get replaced by another planet - the old planet is cleansed by fire, and is restored to edenic conditions.

Just as the Bible says the earth was destroyed by water in the great flood but it’s the same planet, the earth will be destroyed by fire, but it’s going to remain.

2Pe 3:5 But they deliberately ignore the fact that long ago the heavens existed and the earth was formed by God's word out of water and with water,

2Pe 3:6 by which the world at that time was deluged with water and DESTROYED

2Pe 3:7 Now by that same word, the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire and are being kept for the day when ungodly people will be judged and destroyed.

The Bible says one fourth of the world will be burned and one third of mankind killed.

I checked some commentaries like JFB and Albert Barnes, and they state the same thing about the new earth being the restored earth.

Amils have no problem with the idea that this earth will be renewed by the fire rather than thinking that there will be an entirely separate earth to replace this one.

But, 2 Peter 3 makes it very clear that the entire earth will be affected by the fire. That's why it is compared to the flood of Noah's day. Just as the flood affected the entire earth and killed all but 8 people, the fire that comes down when Christ returns will affect the entire earth as well.

Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

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