Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

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GenemZ

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Please show me where scripture talks about the transformation of the bodies of those "Millennial saints".


Where are they going to be if they do not have a resurrected body? If not transformed? They will perish when the universe and earth are destroyed by nuclear fusion. Everything of this earth will have been eliminated. That includes bodies made from the "elements " of the earth. That demands having a transformed body before all is to be burned up!
 
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chad kincham

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After all, where does all the mortal saints in the millennium go when the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5)? Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

You need to research that further. The earth doesn’t disappear and get replaced by another planet - the old planet is cleansed by fire, and is restored to edenic conditions.

Just as the Bible says the earth was destroyed by water in the great flood but it’s the same planet, the earth will be destroyed by fire, but it’s going to remain.

2Pe 3:5 But they deliberately ignore the fact that long ago the heavens existed and the earth was formed by God's word out of water and with water,

2Pe 3:6 by which the world at that time was deluged with water and DESTROYED

2Pe 3:7 Now by that same word, the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire and are being kept for the day when ungodly people will be judged and destroyed.

The Bible says one fourth of the world will be burned and one third of mankind killed.

I checked some commentaries like JFB and Albert Barnes, and they state the same thing about the new earth being the restored earth.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You need to research that further. The earth doesn’t disappear and get replaced by another planet - the old planet is cleansed by fire, and is restored to edenic conditions.

Just as the Bible says the earth was destroyed by water in the great flood but it’s the same planet, the earth will be destroyed by fire, but it’s going to remain.

2Pe 3:5 But they deliberately ignore the fact that long ago the heavens existed and the earth was formed by God's word out of water and with water,

2Pe 3:6 by which the world at that time was deluged with water and DESTROYED

2Pe 3:7 Now by that same word, the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire and are being kept for the day when ungodly people will be judged and destroyed.

The Bible says one fourth of the world will be burned and one third of mankind killed.

I checked some commentaries like JFB and Albert Barnes, and they state the same thing about the new earth being the restored earth.

2 Peter 3 shows the destruction of the wicked and
this earth occurs at Christ's coming, forbidding any possibility of the semi-glorified semi-currupt Premil scenario.

Barnes is Amil like me.

So, what happens to the supposed righteous mortals on your millennial earth after Satan's season?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Where are they going to be if they do not have a resurrected body? If not transformed? They will perish when the universe and earth are destroyed by nuclear fusion. Everything of this earth will have been eliminated. That includes bodies made from the "elements " of the earth. That demands having a transformed body before all is to be burned up!

You are obviously winging it. You have zero Scripture for your theory.
 
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GenemZ

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Not so. Most posters will know i am talking about the great white throne. Please stop your unfair charges.

The Great White Throne can not take place during the Millennium. For first Satan will be locked up for 1000 years and released for a short time, so he can later gather all the malcontents into an attempted coup of the Lord. Being in eternity has no limit by years.

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to
the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the
dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound
him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."
Rev 20:1-3

Eternity will have no time. Therefore the Great White Throne judgement needs to take place not until after all those who rebelled at the end of the Millennium are removed. Therefore, the Millennium must come first!
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Great White Throne can not take place during the Millennium. For first Satan will be locked up for 1000 years and released for a short time, so he can later gather all the malcontents into an attempted coup of the Lord. Being in eternity has no limit by years.

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to
the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the
dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound
him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."
Rev 20:1-3

Eternity will have no time. Therefore the Great White Throne judgement needs to take place not until after all those who rebelled at the end of the Millennium are removed. Therefore, the Millennium must come first!

Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?
 
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GenemZ

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The Rapture can not be his second coming, because he never touches earth in the Rapture. The second coming will be after the seven year Trib, when he returns and sets up his throne for 1000 years. 1000 years with Satan locked up for 1000 years.

There are to be no "years" in eternity. Eternity knows no time.
 
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GenemZ

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Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?

And.. like Eve was inside Adam before the Lord put Adam into a deep sleep? We are now hid in Him!

His body will become our body! We will be bone of his glorious bones, and glorious flesh of his glorious body!

That is why we are called.. "the Bride of Christ." Just as Eve was the bride of Adam!
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Great White Throne can not take place during the Millennium. For first Satan will be locked up for 1000 years and released for a short time, so he can later gather all the malcontents into an attempted coup of the Lord. Being in eternity has no limit by years.

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to
the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the
dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound
him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."
Rev 20:1-3

Eternity will have no time. Therefore the Great White Throne judgement needs to take place not until after all those who rebelled at the end of the Millennium are removed. Therefore, the Millennium must come first!

Your millennium is a bit of a debacle by the look of it. It is full of everything that this age suffers sin, death, corruption, sickness, Satan, war. Quite frankly: the Premil peace is a sham. It is not in Revelation 20. It is foisted upon it by Premils who are devoid of any other passage that mentions these thousand years. In reality billions of mortal phony religious Gentiles (as the sand of the sea) supposedly submit to Christ and attend Jerusalem to worship in the temple in your alleged future millennium. After a thousand years at the drop of a hat they change their worship to Satan. What a debacle! What a bust!
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Rapture can not be his second coming, because he never touches earth in the Rapture. The second coming will be after the seven year Trib, when he returns and sets up his throne for 1000 years. 1000 years with Satan locked up for 1000 years.

There are to be no "years" in eternity. Eternity knows no time.

Ahhh. You are Pretrib.

Can you show us one single Scripture that teaches a rapture of the church, followed by a 7-year trib, followed by a 3rd coming?
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Rapture can not be his second coming, because he never touches earth in the Rapture. The second coming will be after the seven year Trib, when he returns and sets up his throne for 1000 years. 1000 years with Satan locked up for 1000 years.

There are to be no "years" in eternity. Eternity knows no time.
The Great White Throne can not take place during the Millennium. For first Satan will be locked up for 1000 years and released for a short time, so he can later gather all the malcontents into an attempted coup of the Lord. Being in eternity has no limit by years.

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to
the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the
dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound
him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."
Rev 20:1-3

Eternity will have no time. Therefore the Great White Throne judgement needs to take place not until after all those who rebelled at the end of the Millennium are removed. Therefore, the Millennium must come first!

Revelation 20 shows the victory of the first resurrection and how Christ emptied Hades for the elect to access heaven and reign with Christ. Before the resurrection the redeemed dead were forced to stay in Hades awaiting the defeat of sin, death, Hades and Satan. The limitations that once held God's people from the presence of God now restrain Satan so that he cannot stop the enlightenment of the nations.

Few Christians have any difficulty grasping the metaphorical nature of chains and imprisonment when attributed to the wicked. What is more they freely accept that they can freely move and function on planet earth. They see no need to attribute this to convicts that are behind bars or to a literal penitentiary. They can see the spiritual thrust. They can see the symbolism. They easily grasp the metaphorical picture depicting the restrictive nature sin has on sinners. Scripture uses the exactly same symbolism and metaphors when speaking of Satan and his minions since the First Advent. It shows Christ as binding the strongman. The word used in the NT whether it is in Matthew 12:28-29 or Rev 20 or ... is deo – meaning to be in chains. This ability to restrain the kingdom of darkness is also delegated to the Church of Jesus Christ through the preaching of God's Word.

The defeat of Satan and the enlightenment of the Gentiles is carefully connected to the preaching of the Word.

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!
 
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Jamdoc

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You are obviously winging it. You have zero Scripture for your theory.
I back up mine with scripture and you still won't answer.
Who is eating and drinking and marrying while they're being tormented by the 5th trumpet judgement for 5 months?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Does not line up with the days of Noah or Lot.
Who's eating and drinking and getting married with the seas and rivers turning to blood and being tormented by demon locusts and murdered by a 200 million man army?

John uses a lot of literal OT names, events, locations to depict NT spiritual truths. No contradictions. Revelation is saturated in symbolic language.

You did not address my point.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I back up mine with scripture and you still won't answer.
Who is eating and drinking and marrying while they're being tormented by the 5th trumpet judgement for 5 months?

The 5th trumpet is before the last trumpet (number 7) which sees the coming of the Lord, the completion of time, the end of the world, and the fulfillment of the mystery of God.
 
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Jamdoc

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John uses a lot of literal OT names, events, locations to depict NT spiritual truths. No contradictions. Revelation is saturated in symbolic language.

You did not address my point.

The 5th trumpet is before the last trumpet (number 7) which sees the coming of the Lord, the completion of time, the end of the world, and the fulfillment of the mystery of God.

While it's true the 7th trumpet is after the 5th, Jesus came back before the trumpets, after the 6th seal.
Revelation 6:15-17.
He's in the clouds sitting on a throne and every eye sees Him. This is before the trumpets, because as JESUS said, NOT JOHN
JESUS.
That in the days just before His coming, people will be living normal lives.
You will NOT be living a normal life if you've got demon locusts crawling up your walls and through the windows as described in Joel 2. Once the trumpets and vials start going down? The wrath of God? There is no normal life anymore.
There are 2 different appearances of Jesus.
1 in the clouds. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20) and One on a white horse touching down on the mount of olives (Revelation 19:11, and I would say, Isaiah 34 describes this as well with the image of the sword, where Isaiah 26 described the rapture and hiding from the indignation).
They are however, both His second coming, because everything that happens after Jesus appears in the clouds, is the second coming.
 
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sovereigngrace

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While it's true the 7th trumpet is after the 5th, Jesus came back before the trumpets, after the 6th seal.
Revelation 6:15-17.
He's in the clouds sitting on a throne and every eye sees Him. This is before the trumpets, because as JESUS said, NOT JOHN
JESUS.
That in the days just before His coming, people will be living normal lives.
You will NOT be living a normal life if you've got demon locusts crawling up your walls and through the windows as described in Joel 2. Once the trumpets and vials start going down? The wrath of God? There is no normal life anymore.
There are 2 different appearances of Jesus.
1 in the clouds. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20) and One on a white horse touching down on the mount of olives (Revelation 19:11, and I would say, Isaiah 34 describes this as well with the image of the sword, where Isaiah 26 described the rapture and hiding from the indignation).
They are however, both His second coming, because everything that happens after Jesus appears in the clouds, is the second coming.

That is NOT 2 comings. These are various recaps of the same game. Check out the end of the 7 vials and also Revelation 19. Compare the 7 trumpets to the 7 vials. They parallel each other. We are not looking at 4 comings. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recaps. It runs from the 1st to the 2nd advents.
 
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GenemZ

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Your millennium is a bit of a debacle by the look of it. It is full of everything that this age suffers sin, death, corruption, sickness, Satan, war. Quite frankly: the Premil peace is a sham.

You're under a wrong assumption for the Millennium years. It will be peaceful. For those who love the Lord it will be. No more fake news. No more crime. No more apostasy. If any of those raises its ugly head during the 1000 years? Swift and direct justice will eliminate whatever evil becomes overt.


To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end,
I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule
them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces
like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my
Father."
Rev 2:26-27​


Dash them to pieces like pottery? Why should that be needed, if eternity is to be the next change? Perfect peace needing such severe law and order?

Those believers who now reach full maturity in Christ will be granted power and authority to rule over those on earth during the Millennium. These blessed believers will have the power and authority to execute immediate capital punishment. Dash them to pieces like pottery!

When one can supernaturally read minds by God's power one does not need a jury, and no one can lie to you. Quick and immediate action will quickly teach all those who wish to do wrong that crime does not pay. After a few examples of that kind of consequences for wrong doing? The criminally minded will fear doing wrong to anyone. That will leave all those who love the Lord to have stability and peace in the land. There will be peace. Perfect law and order guarantees it.

That is why Satan must be released at the end of the one thousand years.

For evil had become totally oppressed thoroughly the through the examples of immediate justice, and those so inclined learned quickly to become hypocritical in order to stay alive. In the end, Satan will offer them the kind of leadership they had been longing for.

By that way of releasing Satan, God gets the haters to come out and be exposed for what they really are, as the means to eliminate them all out from the faithful's presence. All of mankind will then have been purged of all evil souls. Those remaining alive will be the faithful and can now be entered into the eternal new heavens and new earth. The final new earth which will manifest the real meaning of God's peace... A peace that right now we are yet to understand.

It is not in Revelation 20. It is foisted upon it by Premils who are devoid of any other passage that mentions these thousand years. In reality billions of mortal phony religious Gentiles (as the sand of the sea) supposedly submit to Christ and attend Jerusalem to worship in the temple in your alleged future millennium. After a thousand years at the drop of a hat they change their worship to Satan. What a debacle! What a bust!
I just explained that, and why it will be needed.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You're under a wrong assumption for the Millennium years. It will be peaceful. For those who love the Lord it will be. No more fake news. No more crime. No more apostasy. If any of those raises its ugly head during the 1000 years? Swift and direct justice will eliminate whatever evil becomes overt.


To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end,
I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule
them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces
like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my
Father."
Rev 2:26-27​


Dash them to pieces like pottery? Why should that be needed, if eternity is to be the next change? Perfect peace needing such severe law and order?
needed.

Seriously? This shows the destruction that meets the wicked when Jesus comes. The Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer! This forbids Pretrib and Premil. Like Lot and Noah's day, God rescues all the righteous and destroys all the wicked. There are no survivors. He dashs them in pieces. You do not seem to get the message.

You want to reward the wicked for rejecting Christ and force them into some imaginary age of Aquarius that does exist. Where do you get this in Rev 20. Nowhere. You force it on to support your Premil teaching.

Those believers who now reach full maturity in Christ will be granted power and authority to rule over those on earth during the Millennium. These blessed believers will have the power and authority to execute immediate capital punishment. Dash them to pieces like pottery!

When one can supernaturally read minds by God's power one does not need a jury, and no one can lie to you. Quick and immediate action will quickly teach all those who wish to do wrong that crime does not pay. After a few examples of that kind of consequences for wrong doing? The criminally minded will fear doing wrong to anyone. That will leave all those who love the Lord to have stability and peace in the land. There will be peace. Perfect law and order guarantees it.

That is why Satan must be released at the end of the one thousand years.

For evil had become totally oppressed thoroughly the through the examples of immediate justice, and those so inclined learned quickly to become hypocritical in order to stay alive. In the end, Satan will offer them the kind of leadership they had been longing for.

By that way of releasing Satan, God gets the haters to come out and be exposed for what they really are, as the means to eliminate them all out from the faithful's presence. All of mankind will then have been purged of all evil souls. Those remaining alive will be the faithful and can now be entered into the eternal new heavens and new earth. The final new earth which will manifest the real meaning of God's peace... A peace that right now we are yet to understand.

I just explained that, and why it will be needed.

Whatever way you package it up: you have billions of phonies who are playing at it in your millennium. This is after Jesus being in their midst ruling with "a rod of iron" unchallenged for 1000 years? You have a millennial kingdom filled with phonies supposedly submitted to the leadership of Christ wholesale turning from Him to Satan at his very appearing. This is surely the greatest and swiftest religious turn-around in history. Billions as the sand of the sea jump camps. How could they do this? After all: Jesus is supposed to be reigning in all His glory and majesty with a rod of iron along with the saints in their glorified bodies. These must be the most crooked, deceived, bull-headed, stubborn, stiff-necked and blinded company of humans ever to live. This is an incredible bust. It is a debacle. So much for the righteous reign of Christ on this earth. So much for the submission of the nations. The reality is: most of what Premils attribute to Revelation 20 doesn't exist. It is foisted on the inspired text.
 
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Jamdoc

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That is NOT 2 comings. These are various recaps of the same game. Check out the end of the 7 vials and also Revelation 19. Compare the 7 trumpets to the 7 vials. They parallel each other. We are not looking at 4 comings. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recaps. It runs from the 1st to the 2nd advents.
There's 2 parallels. showing a chronology of Great Tribulations (6, 13), Jesus in the Clouds/Rapture (6, 14), Wrath of God (6:17 through chapter 11, and Chapter 14:19-20 through chapter 19), and Final Judgement (depicted briefly in chapter 11, depicted in more detail in chapter 20). The last events in the wrath of God are given in more detail in the second vision in describing the fall of babylon and armageddon.

You've looked at it as Jesus coming back towards the end of Chapter 16, and see Chapter 18 as a non continuous narrative, but in Chapter 16:19, Babylon comes into remembrance, so no, it's not just an instantaneous everything explodes the instant Jesus comes back.
Events happen, time passes.

The events of chapter 6 and chapter 14, which depict Jesus in the clouds are VERY DIFFERENT than the event in chapter 19, at the end of the wrath.
You have chosen to interpret all descriptions as hyperbole.
I do not.
 
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