Between Resurrection and Ascension

PloverWing · Jun 19, 2020

solid_core said:
1Cor 11:23-26, Paul describes the Lord's Supper as a remembrance of Him, which is in Luke.

It's possible that Paul had access to a source other than Luke. Paul might have heard the story of the Lord's Supper from other members of the Christian community, for example, or Paul might have access to some of the same manuscripts that Luke drew from.

solid_core · Jun 19, 2020

PloverWing said:
It's possible that Paul had access to a source other than Luke. Paul might have heard the story of the Lord's Supper from other members of the Christian community, for example, or Paul might have access to some of the same manuscripts that Luke drew from.

Sure, its possible. But because Luke was his friend and companion and he used Luke's version on other place too and when we know that Luke was long-time collector of gospel sources while writing his own, its quite probable that Paul used some of his materials. It simply fits together.

ViaCrucis · Jun 19, 2020

PloverWing said:
It's possible that Paul had access to a source other than Luke. Paul might have heard the story of the Lord's Supper from other members of the Christian community, for example, or Paul might have access to some of the same manuscripts that Luke drew from.

I generally take the position that these sorts of things represent already extant elements that existed in circulation.

I don't think Paul is quoting Luke, as I don't think Luke was written yet; likewise I don't know that either are borrowing from an already extant text--rather the Last Supper, given the importance of the Eucharist, was going to be the kind of thing the early Church held in its common--and living--memory.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jun 19, 2020

solid_core said:
Sure, its possible. But because Luke was his friend and he used Luke's version on other place too and when we know that Luke was long-time collector of gospel sources and writing his own, its quite probable that Paul used some of his materials. It simply fits together.

This presumes that Luke-Acts was written by St. Luke the Physician, and I don't think we can take that as a given, especially since the author is anonymous. Now, early fathers such as Papias and Irenaeus certainly ascribe these to St. Luke, and which is why we call the third Gospel the Gospel according to St. Luke. But we simply don't know who the author is.

Though I do consider it noteworthy that Acts ends with Paul still under house arrest in Rome, which certainly suggests the possibility of the early date for Luke-Acts. And I don't discount the possibility that the traditional attribution to St. Luke is correct; only that it may not be the best to presume this as a basis of argument.

-CryptoLutheran

cloudyday2 · Jun 19, 2020

solid_core said:
I am not sure. I tried to google it but I did not find it. So maybe the source article was not so imporant and the Q still stands.

Somebody on a forum gave me a link to an academic paper challenging the Q hypothesis, so there are at least some scholars who have other ideas. I only skimmed the beginning of the paper, and it was over my head. (Also, I like the Q hypothesis, so I wasn't very motivated to understand the opposing viewpoint.)

dlamberth · Jun 20, 2020

PloverWing said:
It's possible that Paul had access to a source other than Luke. Paul might have heard the story of the Lord's Supper from other members of the Christian community, for example, or Paul might have access to some of the same manuscripts that Luke drew from.

I think if Paul had access to anything, it would have been through oral story telling which back than was the main means of passing on information.

Rachel20 · Oct 18, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
What do you imagine for the time between the Resurrection and the Ascension of Jesus?

For example, here are some questions I have wished I could answer:
(1) Luke suggests the Ascension happened on the same day as the Resurrection, and Acts says there were 40 days between. Luke and Acts are credited to the same person, so this difference is a mystery.

I believe there were 2 ascensions - Christ had to present himself to the Father, which he did the same day as the Resurrection. So in the morning you see him telling Mary not to touch him because he hasn't ascended to the Father yet (John 20:17), then later that same day appearing to his disciples, and again 8 days later he's telling Thomas to touch his side (John 20:27). So sometime in that 8 day span he must have presented himself to the Father and could now be touched. Then you had the ascension recorded in Acts where he goes to sit at the right hand of the power till his enemies are made his footstool.

As part of the first ascension, I believe Christ took those saints waiting in "paradise" (to whom he preached 3 days & nights) with him to the Father, fulfilling the prophecy "he led captivity captive".

cloudyday2 · Oct 18, 2020

Rachel20 said:
I believe there were 2 ascensions - Christ had to present himself to the Father, which he did the same day as the Resurrection. So in the morning you see him telling Mary not to touch him because he hasn't ascended to the Father yet (John 20:17), then later that same day appearing to his disciples, and again 8 days later he's telling Thomas to touch his side (John 20:27). So sometime in that 8 day span he must have presented himself to the Father and could now be touched. Then you had the ascension recorded in Acts where he goes to sit at the right hand of the power till his enemies are made his footstool.

As part of the first ascension, I believe Christ took those saints waiting in "paradise" (to whom he preached 3 days & nights) with him to the Father, fulfilling the prophecy "he led captivity captive".

Hmmm, that's an interesting idea that I have never heard before, but I can see how it fits the gospel narrative.

Robban · Oct 21, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
What do you imagine for the time between the Resurrection and the Ascension of Jesus?

For example, here are some questions I have wished I could answer:
(1) Luke suggests the Ascension happened on the same day as the Resurrection, and Acts says there were 40 days between. Luke and Acts are credited to the same person, so this difference is a mystery.
(2) During these 40 days (if they were 40 days), was Jesus living and eating and sleeping with his disciples and answering their questions regarding theology, organization, and practices of the future Church - sort of like a 40 day intensive training class? Or was Jesus appearing unexpectedly to random people following the pattern of the few appearances described in the gospels?
(3) Why is there no more information about the appearance to 500 disciples simultaneously that is mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:7? How could such an event be ignored by the gospel writers?
(4) Why are there no teachings of Jesus attributed to that time period?

That's just an example. What do you imagine happened between the Resurrection and the Ascension?

John 21:14

Why 153 fishes,why not just settle for a lot of fish?

I suspect there is a mystical numerical code hidden in the writings.

he may have been here there and everywhere but not always did those who had met him recognize him.

On the road to Emmaus for example.

Robban · Oct 21, 2020

Robban said:
John 21:14

Why 153 fishes,why not just settle for a lot of fish?

I suspect there is a mystical numerical code hidden in the writings.

he may have been here there and everywhere but not always did those who had met him recognize him.

On the road to Emmaus for example.

Example,
1+2+3+4+5 and so on, first it adds up to 153,

continue and it adds up to 276 the number of persons
on board in the storm outside of Crete,

continue further and it adds up to 666.

Or maybe just a novelty.

Robban · Oct 21, 2020

Robban said:
Example,
1+2+3+4+5 and so on, first it adds up to 153,

continue and it adds up to 276 the number of persons
on board in the storm outside of Crete,

continue further and it adds up to 666.

Or maybe just a novelty.

BTW,

it is thought by some that 153 is the number of then known differents arts of fish and symbolizes the poulation of the the earth.

Caught in a net?
It is tempting to draw conclusions,
but also risk of drifting into the realms of fantasy.

I think technology is moving too fast everyone seems to be in a hurry.

AV1611VET · Oct 22, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
(2) During these 40 days (if they were 40 days), was Jesus living and eating and sleeping with his disciples ...

In almost every encounter Jesus had with His disciples after His resurrection, He ate with them.

Here's an example:

John 21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

AV1611VET · Oct 22, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
(4) Why are there no teachings of Jesus attributed to that time period?

You mean like here?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

AV1611VET · Oct 22, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
What do you imagine for the time between the Resurrection and the Ascension of Jesus?

Interesting remark in your profile:

In college I lost faith.

Sorry to hear that.

cloudyday2 · Oct 22, 2020

AV1611VET said:
In almost every encounter Jesus had with His disciples after His resurrection, He ate with them.

Here's an example:

John 21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

The last verse is interesting: "This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples" (John 21:14). That implies that seeing Jesus during the time between Resurrection and Ascension was a rare experience. Rather than a predictable daily experience where a disciple might be able to make a list of questions to ask Jesus the following day in training class.

Off-topic somewhat, but I wonder if the incident Paul describes when hundreds of disciples saw Jesus simultaneously might have been the Ascension?

Between Resurrection and Ascension

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