Ex Christians - why did you leave?

RoseCrystal said:

One of the biggest problems I have is the exclusivity of Christianity, the idea that the only way to be 'saved' and go to heaven is through Jesus, which dooms two-thirds of the population, it all seems a bit arrogant and naive. Plus its only been around for 2000 years, so that poses problems too.

What about devout Hindu's, or Buddhists or pagans or Wiccans or druids? Spirituality can take many forms in many different belief systems, I am finding it hard to believe that only one of those belief systems has a monopoly on peace in the afterlife.

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What is the current belief of the Catholic Church regarding the afterlife of non-Catholics and non-Christians?

RoseCrystal said:

Thank you to @RayJeena @cloudyday2 and @MehGuy for actually respecting the topic of the thread and sharing your experiences. I found your posts very helpful.

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You will also see threads that are on the opposite extreme, everyone is addressing the OP yet nobody realizes that the OP hasn’t logged in for 6 years lol

What made you decide to leave?

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The idea that there was seemingly no reason to question because it was tradition and poor attempts to justify it based on similar traditional explanations even my mother, with a Masters Degree in Library Science, seemingly didn't question, even after shifting from her Baptist upbringing to Presbyterianism (which is only slightly less extreme, but not as "liberal" as Anglicanism)

Do you have a new religion or set of spiritual beliefs? If you feel like sharing what are they?

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I wouldn't say I have religious or spiritual beliefs in the common association of those meanings and I wouldn't consider myself religious or spiritual either. At best, introspection is something I see as valuable, but that's more in the psychological improvement, people learning from mistakes and seeing their flaws with a goal to improve them if possible (some flaws are not really fixable, exactly). My initial shift was to Deism and then to Buddhist influences, though much more vague and not making metaphysical claims, especially given that rebirth and reincarnation (technically two different things) have their own difficulties, even if they may seem more compelling in an immanent versus transcendent explanation of the afterlife.

How did you deal with fear and guilt of leaving?

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I didn't have that and still don't, though there are issues I've found in regards to people treating church like it's a given or such even though I think I've made it relatively clear to most people who know me that I no longer have anything more than the thinnest connections to my childhood faith I was raised in, mostly academic curiosity and such

What were the main sticking points for you about Christianity that you could no longer follow/believe in?

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Even now, I think the biggest ones were the disproportionate punishment for the "sin" of not believing in God, as if that deserved eternal suffering or other variations on what hell is, rather than judging a person's merits and deeds as an individual versus simply conforming to the one requirement that appears to matter. And the notion of salvation was a servile concept, based in authoritarian dogmatic tendencies, to believe because it was tradition or faulty reasoning that appeals to ignorance of science or misinformation spread by charlatans and the like.

Have you found peace in your new spiritual identity?

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I don't pretend to have a fixed identity on such a thing, nor can it always be summed up with any single title. Buddhist is probably not that accurate if pressed in terms of any iteration of beliefs held on various topics, especially metaphysical ones, though some are certainly more compelling in the ideas of the 3 Buddhist truths of anatta, anicca and dukkha, for instance, the abstract ideas applicable to both philosophical and scientific arguments to be made about things like an afterlife not having much, if any basis, in fact or evidence.

How did your family and friends react to your leaving? What do you say to them about it and are they accepting of you? Have people turned their backs on you for leaving?

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We really don't talk about it, which is troubling in the idea that it's just accepted and they will just continue praying as they have for over 10 years now that I will return to the fold.

I'm estranged from some family, at least in the sense that those topics really aren't brought up, in part because my parents are understanding that I have my position and some family members are less than respectful of that in their more fundamentalist attitudes about the world and how it's not Christian enough or other ideas I recall them advocating, which includes stuff that is borderline indoctrination of their children instead of encouraging critical thought without guilt tripping about their salvation or faith. But they're not regarded without some iffiness even by mother, since it's her side of the family, but even my father's side of the family seems to have similar, if different attitudes in terms of the focus.

A relative that was at the funeral for my paternal grandfather spoke about how atheists are basically sad because they have nothing to look forward too, which irritated me in the tactless insults to a group because they didn't fit one preconception of what is right, and it wasn't much different when my maternal great grandmother passed away, a similar sentiment that is not entirely shocking in the Bible Belt, but still disappointing nonetheless that it persists because of terrible education or indoctrination from people who care more about feeling right than actually showing how they are right in some belief.

Do you ever struggle with your decision and want to go back?

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I would not go back without sufficient falsifiable evidence, but fundamentally I'd still be an outcast even if I somehow accepted the Bible as anything worthy of holy instruction and spiritual guidance, because I generally find the more unorthodox ideas the more compelling and based in somewhat accurate textual analysis (annihilationism, universal reconciliation, Unitarianism, etc)

RoseCrystal said:

And if that revelation is leading me away from Christianity, would you still consider it revelation? Or is it only revelation when it agrees with christian ideals?

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Genuine revelation leads you to the Truth of Jesus. He said "I am the way the Truth and the Life".

It is a matter of deciding if He was lying or not.

Carl Emerson said:

Genuine revelation leads you to the Truth of Jesus. He said "I am the way the Truth and the Life".

It is a matter of deciding if He was lying or not.

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False dichotomy on both accounts: The truth is not just Jesus or not and the statements made by Jesus are not either truth or lies, because he could've been sincere but mistaken. And the truth is not predisposed to Jesus unless you've already presupposed that in the worldview, which is dishonest and intellectually questionable

RoseCrystal said:

So revelation is only revelation if it leads to Jesus? in other words 'you're only right if your revelation agrees with Christianity'.

That's not really a valid argument anyone could possibly take seriously.

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Christ is the only way to Life. If you think that God is intolerant and rude then that's your own problem.
I'll leave the rest to the original poster.

“Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. "

RoseCrystal said:

Have you ever, even once in your life, entertained the idea that you could be wrong? That Christianity could be wrong?

And where did I say that I thought that God was intolerant and rude? Shouldn't he then be tolerant of the fact I'm questioning a set of beliefs I just happened to have been born into?

And why do you believe all genuine revelation can only come from a Christian viewpoint?
You can't justify that argument with circular reasoning.
Christ is the only way to life = The bible is right because the bible says its right - doesn't stack up.

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Of course, I have "entertained" the idea that "Christianity could be wrong". I have challenged my faith against just about every other worldview and it is abundantly clear to me that Christianity is in fact the exclusive truth.

Being a Christian is not exactly our own choice, nor is it something that we are 'born into'. Rather it is about God 'calling' us, 'electing us', or 'pulling', us in. Did you know that God knew who would be Christian before the world was created? He also knows everything about the decision you made.

I would be delighted to share some of my own personal experiences as to the truth of Jesus and his claims. It is actually a good argument what you say about "just because the bible says its right"... it becomes true. Because I believe that Christianity is the ultimate truth, and thus God's word is truth, and a reasonable appeal to authority. Again it comes down to the issue of whether or not Jesus is telling the truth. Or he must be a liar. Likewise we can go on for hours about the origin of life, and if it is indeed most probable that God is the creator of the universe, then why should I disagree with the claims in the bible: we wouldn't exist without God.

Christianity is utterly exclusive in its claims. God came to earth in flesh: died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice. And what is more profound is that it fits the ot narrative ideally. Look at Is 53 for example. Now even as a skeptic I would have difficulties refuting that that passage is divinely insipired, unless of course in the likely scenario, that my heart is hardened. All other religions are about what we can do to become better people, whereas God says, behold, we cannot do anything. He saves us by his grace, we cannot do a thing. This again is an unprecedented picture of religion.

Further it is so heartwarming to see the gospel being spread to the remotest communities around the world... and if the bible does in fact hold divine authority, once the gospel has reached the ends of the earth, then Christ will return. So other cultures have sufficient chance to accept the Maker of earth. Besides, nature itself screams God. As Paul puts it in Romans 1, nobody has an excuse to reject Jesus. I think if someone is CAPABLE of reasoning good and evil, then they should have sufficient merit to accept that there is one God. The people who cannot reason this will openly have a chance to be saved in my view.

I totally understand that for now you are probably not willing to seek further 'help', and I'm sorry if I bothered you in any way. However, I am willing to speak about some of your concerns if need be.

I totally understand that for now you are probably not willing to seek further 'help', and I'm sorry if I bothered you in any way. However, I am willing to speak about some of your concerns if need be.

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Well, you brought up a few that immediately come to mind

Besides, nature itself screams God. As Paul puts it in Romans 1, nobody has an excuse to reject Jesus. I think if someone is CAPABLE of reasoning good and evil, then they should have sufficient merit to accept that there is one God. The people who cannot reason this will openly have a chance to be saved in my view.

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That's what it seems when you've already concluded that is the only sufficient explanation, which is an appeal to ignorance. And I have plenty of excuses to reject Jesus, neither of which involve simplistic arguments from design or appeals to some presup idea that God is necessary for good and evil to be intelligible

All other religions are about what we can do to become better people, whereas God says, behold, we cannot do anything. He saves us by his grace, we cannot do a thing. This again is an unprecedented picture of religion.

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This dishonest characterization of other religions betrays how you've become poisoned in your supposed "logic" to demonize every other worldview as if it is entirely foreign instead of seeing any kind of parallels. And that's not even getting into the self loathing tendency embodied in the idea that we cannot do anything remotely, yet the goal is us still doing something, but it amounts to extreme self denial, which is not psychologically healthy with the idea of codependence or Stockholm syndrome being possible outcomes of this thinking.

It is actually a good argument what you say about "just because the bible says its right"... it becomes true. Because I believe that Christianity is the ultimate truth, and thus God's word is truth, and a reasonable appeal to authority. Again it comes down to the issue of whether or not Jesus is telling the truth. Or he must be a liar.

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That's circular reasoning, you cannot appeal to the thing you believe already to be true in order to make the argument it is true, especially when it is of a revelatory nature and not a matter of falsifiable evidence.

And that's a false dichotomy, Jesus could be telling the truth, he could be lying or he could be mistaken. And I'm not even entertaining the idea of his insanity, because that's irrelevant in terms of the correctness of his claims when sincere belief does not follow to truth, nor does martyrdom add more credence when people are willing to die for any number of causes.

Did you know that God knew who would be Christian before the world was created? He also knows everything about the decision you made.

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And you've stumbled into one of the most divisive aspects of Christianity in soteriology: if God already knows this, God cannot also not know which people will persist in being Christians to the end of their days. Respecting freewill does not preclude God having that foreknowledge, especially if God is almighty and its plans will come to fruition regardless of the myriad possibilities of our actions and what comes from them.

Of course, I have "entertained" the idea that "Christianity could be wrong". I have challenged my faith against just about every other worldview and it is abundantly clear to me that Christianity is in fact the exclusive truth.

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"Just about every other" is not all, so you cannot, in fact, conclude Christianity is the exclusive truth (because you'd have to exclude everything, not "just about every other", nor can you claim your particular brand is the "True" Christianity without making more special pleading about your experiences somehow following to absolute knowledge or anything resembling it.

What you find wanting in a worldview does not make it wrong in the conclusions it reaches, that's, again, an appeal to ignorance

RoseCrystal said:

the point is how do those who leave navigate it and find peace and avoid 'well-meaning' Christians trying to explain why they're wrong to leave and should come back.

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Good morning, @RoseCrystal. This should help. In my case (not writing for anyone else) I’m not attempting to convert or convince or change your mind on anything. If my idea was to change your mind and win you thoroughly back to the faith, then exchanging with @AV1611VET on the nature of belief, doubt and the believability of Bible promises would be a big mistake. I haven’t attempted to correct a single argument of yours.

My messages are on the disbelief topic and why people go there, granted it’s not a Christian to atheist or a Christian to Hindu testimony, it’s on the subject of knowledge and unbelief anyhow, warrant and epistemology.

If you find the conversation about beliefs and reasons so compelling that you’re driven back into the cold cold hands of Christianity, that’s normally seen as proving the truth (or falsehood) of something simple by explaining it accurately. The art of conversation helps to do this, enjoying chat for chats sake (not to try and convert you.)

RoseCrystal said:

I only mentioned a few of my issues, and the idea of this thread is to hear experiences of others who have LEFT Christianity,

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Probably the ideas you’re most comfortable sharing, they’re by in large intellectual issues nonetheless. Intellectual objections which you’ve classed as “belief” problems, but having a strong apologetic reply would go towards helping you resolve those problems. Having “brilliant apologists” in your circle of family and friends but not sharing apologetical questions with them. See to me that story doesn’t shake out so well.

The truth is that people who self report about why they’re leaving the faith (so ex Christians) almost always report the reasons for leaving in such a way as to flatter themselves. “As a being of pure reason who understands the sciences I had to exit Christianity.” Though after a two minute conversation the person can’t tell you the difference between a beaker and a boson.

This shady self reporting isn’t a religion exclusive thing mind you. People falsely self report on anything from happiness to the frequency of their sex life to how much they can bench press.

RoseCrystal said:

nd therefore if I did I wouldn't feel the way I do.
The bottom line is I'm not sure I believe the whole Jesus story anymore,

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On the basis of what do we believe or disbelieve things like historic events?

I’m not meaning to say you believe or don’t believe, I’m asking when we do believe or disbelieve in anything, what measuring stick did we use to confirm or deny it?

muichimotsu said:

False dichotomy on both accounts: The truth is not just Jesus or not and the statements made by Jesus are not either truth or lies, because he could've been sincere but mistaken. And the truth is not predisposed to Jesus unless you've already presupposed that in the worldview, which is dishonest and intellectually questionable

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Good try...

I used to look thru Buddhist glasses as well.

Jesus is God.

Ask Him to reveal Himself to you.

Maya will no longer rule your conclusions.

RoseCrystal said:

So revelation is only revelation if it leads to Jesus? in other words 'you're only right if your revelation agrees with Christianity'.

That's not really a valid argument anyone could possibly take seriously.

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I am not presenting argument the final arbiter is relationship not logic.

muichimotsu said:

And I have plenty of excuses to reject Jesus, neither of which involve simplistic arguments from design or appeals to some presup idea that God is necessary for good and evil to be intelligible

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Well where did our conscious come from? Perhaps a fish?

A question for you. Is it morally wrong to rape and murder a child?

WRONG | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
MORAL | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

muichimotsu said:

This dishonest characterization of other religions betrays how you've become poisoned in your supposed "logic" to demonize every other worldview as if it is entirely foreign instead of seeing any kind of parallels.

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As to logic I am admittedly lacking. And I am a walking example of a poisoned human being in need of a saviour.

Another question: do you think you are a good person?

GOOD | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Psa 145:3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable.
Psa 145:4 One generation shall commend your works to another, and shall declare your mighty acts...

Psa 145:8 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.
Psa 145:10 All your works shall give thanks to you, O LORD, and all your saints shall bless you!
Psa 145:11 They shall speak of the glory of your kingdom and tell of your power,
Psa 145:12 to make known to the children of man your mighty deeds, and the glorious splendor of your kingdom.
Psa 145:13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures throughout all generations. [The LORD is faithful in all his words and kind in all his works.]
Psa 145:14 The LORD upholds all who are falling and raises up all who are bowed down.
Psa 145:15 The eyes of all look to you, and you give them their food in due season.
Psa 145:16 You open your hand; you satisfy the desire of every living thing.
Psa 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works.
Psa 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.
Psa 145:19 He fulfills the desire of those who fear him; he also hears their cry and saves them.
Psa 145:20 The LORD preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.
Psa 145:21 My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, and let all flesh bless his holy name forever and ever.

RoseCrystal said:

And if that revelation is leading me away from Christianity, would you still consider it revelation? Or is it only revelation when it agrees with christian ideals?

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Personally, I think the revelation will only be considered such if it leads to whichever belief system is held by the observer. For example, anything that leads one towards Islam would be considered "revelation" by a Muslim. Anything leading one towards Hinduism would be considered "revelation" by a Hindu, etc. Same with Christianity.

Anything that validates a certain belief system will be considered, by its adherents, as "revelation". It's the nature of a religious mindset.

Cormack said:

Good luck with this I feel you’ll have no end to people intentionally derailing this topic trying to save you.

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Cormack, it seems to me that some people derailed this thread to save Christianity from a doubter rather than to save a doubter from doubts. That's pretty sad if you ask me.

Saving doubters from doubt sounds like an awfully insecure thing to try and do, @cloudyday2. Doubts aren’t usually dangerous but rather they’re healthy, although if there’s anything shameful to do with doubts, it’s sometimes the foundation upon which some doubts are fostered.

For example, a couple of men could hold the same belief about you but ground that belief upon different (unequal) foundations. The belief is that you’re a person of low moral character (just for a thought experiment.)

Mr. Smart believes you’re a person of low moral character because you often cheat him in games of chance, lie about your achievements and slander your other half while in his company.

Mr. Silly believes you’re a person of low moral character because he doesn’t much like the colour of your skin.

The same beliefs, both correct beliefs insofar that yes you’re a cheat, liar and verbally abusive to or about your other half. You’re a person of low moral character and each man has your number. It’s the foundation of Mr. Silly’s belief where the problem appears, his issues to do with race are no doubt a source of harm and upset to him and everyone he shares them with (his family included.) He pulled the trigger on you out of ignorance and pride rather than dare admit to having a misguided foundation upon which his beliefs were built, that’s often unbelief in a nutshell (minus the correct conclusion.)

cloudyday2 said:

it seems to me that some people

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Or as the old saying goes “Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.” jk jk jk lots of luv honest

There’s loads of content to respond to if you or @RoseCrystal want to exchange on the more exciting parts of this topic, points that might bring about a more enlightening conversation for everyone, rather than going deep into “someone did this” or “you’ll never believe who’s getting fired.” Or worse the conspiracy of silence, which says more than you or I ever could about the openness of the people we are writing to.

The conspiracy of silence. See the most loving, kind, together family, a family of “brilliant apologists,” (who the topic creator won’t discuss apologetics with) clearly aren’t great apologists, right? If your family were the most brilliant people wouldn’t you want to lean on their great qualities and try to follow them. They’re wonderful, but not so wonderful I “buy” what they’re selling. Instead there’s silence.

They’re by the sounds of an earlier message blamed by the TC for being too emotional, due to which the topic creator doesn’t feel confident in having an open conversation with them (lest they worry.)

Again silence. So far as I can read there’s no full disclosure here (because who are we to have access to something so private,) but there’s also no full disclosure or unguarded communication in the real world either (where a loving family do deserve an open and honest opportunity to share life together.)

Of course if none of this applies I’m sure there will be no hard feelings, just thankfulness that their situation is so much better than the one I mistakenly described! If any of the above applies however, it takes courage and honesty to admit to that.