Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

DavidPT said:

This is what it means to you if one doesn't agree satan is currently bound, that that person doesn't agree satan is under Christ's authority? So, what would it mean when satan is loosed? Wouldn't it have to mean the exact opposite? satan is no longer under Christ's authority?


I don't think satan is curerntly bound, yet I would never suggest this means satan is not under Christ's authority, then.

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Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was the decisive blow against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

iamlamad said:

You cannot find God on the throne coming to earth at the 6th seal. That is myth.

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With that logic neither is the Lamb. Show me in the verse were it does not say God on the throne. How many other beings in the trinity sit on a throne?

DavidPT said:

And one final thing for now. Premils typically argue from a position of chronology. Not just meaning ch 19 and 20, but meaning in general, meaning when it involves prophetic events. But as to Amil, sometimes chronology appears to be relevant to them, sometimes it doesn't. And strangely enough, the times it seems to be irrelevant to them, are the times when the chronology appears to support Premil.

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You come up with some wild and wonderful theories at times that have no basis in reality. You should know better than this. It is Premil that is exposed in their chronological approach to Rev 19 and 20. Rev 19 forbids their speculations. It is the end of the world. Rev 20 goes right back to the first resurrection of Christ.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

With respect to you, I was following your argument (though not agreeing with it, but at least understanding it) until you implied that DavidPT is insane by saying

Choosing words like "that is insane" is not conducive to any civilized discussion. If you had merely said,

then you would not (a) first annoy; and (b) lose your reader, so that the reader does not even want to read the rest.

So, the reason, as I see it, why Premils and Amils will continue to disagree, is because Premils understand that the 42 months cannot begin until the abyss is opened, "locusts" come out of the abyss, and we literally see the rise of this end-time final empire, and see how it makes war against the saints and overcomes them, how this ties in with Daniel's prophecy about the beast that is destroyed by the stone cut out without hands wearing out the saints of the most high and they (the saints) are given into his hand for a time, times and a half a time.

Therefore since, as you say,


It shows me exactly why Amils and Premils differ and will continue to differ.

This let's me heave a sigh of relief, however, that IF (notice I said IF in order to be objective) Premils are correct in the way we interpret it, then it won't take until after the return of Christ for Amils to see the error in their interpretation - because when the abyss is opened and these things begin to take place, Amils will begin questioning their interpretation.

So, to get back to what DavidPT was saying,

1. The abyss must have been opened for the beast that will receive its power, its seat (kingdom of Satan in the world) and great authority from Satan, to ascend out of it.
2. The beast must have ascended from the abyss in order for saints to be martyred for their refusal to receive its mark or the number of its name.
3. The saints of chapter 20 who were seen at the beginning of the thousand years, were martyred for their refusal to worship the beast, receive its mark or the number of its name.

It just so happens that in THE passage in the Revelation which CLOSES with talking about the harvest, we read:

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice,

Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink.

And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them.

THE PASSAGES CLOSES WITH THE HARVEST and THE WRATH OF GOD:

And I looked, and behold, a white cloud. And on the cloud sat one like the Son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice to Him sitting on the cloud,

Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth was dried. And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple in Heaven, also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out from the altar, who had authority over fire. And he spoke with a great cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the anger of God.
And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, for the space of a thousand, six hundred stadia. (Revelation 14:6-20)

The above scenario, (which we must bear in mind has been revealed to us by the Lord), agrees with many other statements in the Old and New Testaments, for example:

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Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact, the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that Satan and his demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Before proceeding any further, we should carefully note a few things here which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

Revelation 9:11 gives us more detail confirming that we are looking at the restrained kingdom of darkness: “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abussos (or) abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means 'king with a domain'. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for 'kingdom' is the Greek word basileia denoting 'sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion'. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king - a head, (2) a domain to rule over - subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration - ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

We all know, there are only two spiritual realms in conflict on this earth - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Whilst these two kingdoms manifest through physical individuals they are invisible empires. The kingdom being described which "the destroyer" rules over is assuredly not the kingdom of God. The elect angels are never located in the abyss but rather in heavenly splendor. Therefore, we must be speaking of the dark restrained invisible spiritual realm of the devil's kingdom.

Who is this king (or destroyer) that currently reigns over "the bottomless pit" or abyss? We know from the description given of this king that we are looking at an angel. In fact, the king is called: "the angel of the abyss." There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that dark realm?

Strong's Concordance gives us help, describing Apollyon (623) as "a destroyer (i.e. Satan)." Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong's 622) we find it means "to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively." The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There seems little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church - the devil.

Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan and his minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.

We cannot help but conclude, the angel (or star) that descends in Revelation 9:1-3 is given immediate authority over Satan (Abaddon / Apollyon) and his angels (symbolic represented in this passage as locust/scorpion-type creatures), who in turn are presently in the abyss realm. The one major difficulty for Premils here is that this passage expressly locates Satan and his minions in the abyss prior to the coming of the Lord, as Amillennialism believes and not after that as Premillennialism mistakenly argues.

This reading also significantly shows that Satan is currently subject to the authority of another angel (star). This angel obviously is not a fellow fallen angel, as Satan is undisputed king of that realm; it must therefore be an angel from the kingdom of God. Even though Satan is presently king over the abyss, he is currently restrained in that condition. Satan is restricted to the boundaries of the abyss - which is the spiritual abode of the kingdom of darkness. There is another angel that holds the key over

This reading also significantly shows that Satan is currently subject to the authority of another angel (star). This angel obviously is not a fellow fallen angel, as Satan is undisputed king of that realm; it must therefore be an angel from the kingdom of God. Even though Satan is presently king over the abyss, he is currently restrained in that condition. Satan is restricted to the boundaries of the abyss - which is the spiritual abode of the kingdom of darkness. There is another angel that holds the key over

Notwithstanding, this kingdom of demons that is ruled by Satan is released from the bottomless pit prior to the end in order to wreak havoc. There can be no other wicked king reigning over this kingdom than Satan. To suggest otherwise is to contradict much Scripture that shows Lucifer as the leader of the wicked band.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 tells us that Satan will have a time of spiritual destruction before the end, saying, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away or (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (apoleia or ruin or destruction); Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12: “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

I believe that man of sin is a proliferation of unrestrained sin, rebellion and debauchery before the Lord's return. I don't see it as merely a person but as the spirit of rebellion within man. I believe Paul shows that this will infiltrate into the true Church. The flesh will come to the fore taking the place of Christ.

I believe this refers to the spirit of anti-Christ operating within the true Church in the last days – evidenced by the notable growth of false doctrine and unscriptural practices, signs and wonders. That is not to suggest that this anti-Christ spirit can possess the true believer – I don't believe so – but he can influence the believer to accept, expound and walk in error.

The "man of sin" is that natural carnal man within all of us. If we give him an inch he will usurp God every single time. The fact is, either Christ reigns on the throne in the believer or self does. There is no joint control. That man of sin is our greatest enemy in life.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

With respect to you, I was following your argument (though not agreeing with it, but at least understanding it) until you implied that DavidPT is insane by saying

Choosing words like "that is insane" is not conducive to any civilized discussion. If you had merely said,

then you would not (a) first annoy; and (b) lose your reader, so that the reader does not even want to read the rest.

So, the reason, as I see it, why Premils and Amils will continue to disagree, is because Premils understand that the 42 months cannot begin until the abyss is opened, "locusts" come out of the abyss, and we literally see the rise of this end-time final empire, and see how it makes war against the saints and overcomes them, how this ties in with Daniel's prophecy about the beast that is destroyed by the stone cut out without hands wearing out the saints of the most high and they (the saints) are given into his hand for a time, times and a half a time.

Therefore since, as you say,


It shows me exactly why Amils and Premils differ and will continue to differ.

This let's me heave a sigh of relief, however, that IF (notice I said IF in order to be objective) Premils are correct in the way we interpret it, then it won't take until after the return of Christ for Amils to see the error in their interpretation - because when the abyss is opened and these things begin to take place, Amils will begin questioning their interpretation.

So, to get back to what DavidPT was saying,

1. The abyss must have been opened for the beast that will receive its power, its seat (kingdom of Satan in the world) and great authority from Satan, to ascend out of it.
2. The beast must have ascended from the abyss in order for saints to be martyred for their refusal to receive its mark or the number of its name.
3. The saints of chapter 20 who were seen at the beginning of the thousand years, were martyred for their refusal to worship the beast, receive its mark or the number of its name.

It just so happens that in THE passage in the Revelation which CLOSES with talking about the harvest, we read:

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice,

Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink.

And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them.

THE PASSAGES CLOSES WITH THE HARVEST and THE WRATH OF GOD:

And I looked, and behold, a white cloud. And on the cloud sat one like the Son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice to Him sitting on the cloud,

Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth was dried. And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple in Heaven, also having a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out from the altar, who had authority over fire. And he spoke with a great cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the anger of God.
And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, for the space of a thousand, six hundred stadia. (Revelation 14:6-20)

The above scenario, (which we must bear in mind has been revealed to us by the Lord), agrees with many other statements in the Old and New Testaments, for example:

Daniel's prophecy, which I highlight and bold below:

Daniel 7: 17-27
These four great beasts are four kings; they shall arise out of the earth.
But the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.
Then I wanted to know the truth of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, very frightening, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of bronze; who devoured, broke in pieces, and stamped the rest with his feet;
and of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth speaking very great things, whose look was greater than his fellows.

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Revelation 11:7 says (speaking during the third of seven parallel), describing the period of time in-between the testimony of the two witnesses and the coming of the Lord, "when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the abyss (or abussos) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

The word “ascendeth” here is in the present active particle here associating it with the conclusion of the 2 witnesses’ ministry. His release would seem to result in the death of the 2 witnesses. The pit holds the beast during the intra-Advent period, until just before the end when he is released for a short season to do his evil. This imprisonment occurs after Christ’s victory at the cross and continues to just before the end. This covers the whole period of the Gospel expanse throughout the nations. This allows the deceived nations to hear the truth and accept or reject it.

At the end of the third recapitulation in Revelation we witness the beast being released and ascending up out of the abyss for a short season at the end. This confirms the fact that the beast is kept under restraint up until the period preceding Christ's return. At that time he is given an unrestrained season in order to operate and manifest unparalleled debauchery. This undoubtedly correlates with Satan's release in Revelation 20:7-9 (at the end of the seventh and last parallel). When did the beast go to the abyss and how did he get there in the first place? It would be fair to conclude, the beast was placed under constraint in the abyss at the same time the devil was (Revelation 20:1-3). This occurred during the Lord's earthly ministry when Christ ushered in the kingdom of God. Satan and the anti-Christ system of this world were given carefully defined boundaries to operate in and were made subject to the mind and will of God.

This is further confirmation that the beast must be a spirit, not a human being. We must surely assume it is the spirit of antichrist controlling his kingdom.

Revelation 11:11-19 rewinds back to touch another occurrence before the last trumpet (the seventh or the second coming); this time regarding the 2 witnesses: “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. Andthe seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The beast also will be released from his restraints and his wounded head will be healed. This correlates with the bruising of Satan's head through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

We see this in Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

The wound to one of the beast’s heads amazingly heals up at the end. Remember the beast has “seven heads” referring to seven kingdoms. That can only mean that one of Satan’s defeated kingdoms is revived at the end, when the freed beast begins his final evil. The text tells us: “I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.” Obviously one kingdom that seemed dead and buried is revitalised by the beast for his end-time terror. This causes the world to wonder. Which kingdom is this? Could it be Rome under the evil influence of the Roman Church? Could it be Islam that was embodied within the Ottoman Empire? Either empire would fit the end-time picture. Both religious systems continue to be an enemy of the true Church throughout the globe, albeit in a restricted form.

Here is absolute evidence that the beast is released from the restraints of the pit before the second coming. The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” When is the time for judging the dead? At the last trump which is after the thousand years. The fate of Satan and the beast are inextricably linked together. So if the beast is currently in the bottomless pit (before the second coming) and will be released at the end for a season of damage, then we should also likewise imagine Satan will also.

Satan and his spiritual kingdom (the beast) have been restrained since the cross, but just prior to the Lord's return that restraint will be lifted in order to let the kingdom of darkness influence men to unprecedented evil. Revelation 11:7 therefore relates to Satan's "little season," which occurs at the end of the thousand years, when Satan is released just before The second coming.

The character of the beast is simply a reflection of Satan. He carries all the depraved ruinous traits of his master Satan. Apollyon the destroyer (the king of the released demons) empowers the beast to pour out his venom upon mankind when released from his restraint at the end, just prior to the return of Christ. We should not overlook the usage of similar Greek words to describe the main players in Satan's end-time assault upon this earth.

This worldly beast that deluded the Gentiles prior to the cross has been curtailed since the powerful invasion of devil's territory by the kingdom of God. When we read that the beast "was, and is not, and yet is" we must understand this as saying, whilst the beast still exists, it is in a restrained state in a spiritual prison since the cross. Essentially, he does not possess the same power and influence among the Gentiles as he did prior to the cross. This state will only change during Satan's little season at the end when he will bring in a wave of rebellion and debauchery such as this world has never seen. The devil and his minions will be untied to have their final throw.

Revelation 20:7-13 correlates: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison (the abyss or bottomless pit), And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

Satan’s little season corresponds with the release of the beast / antichrist / mystery of iniquity. This is speaking of the last battle before the climactic coming of Christ. We are in the kingdom period now, it will come in all its final and eternal glory at the second coming. It says "the dead" were "judged" in both Revelation 11:15-18 and Revelation 20:11-15. How many times will the dead be judged? Once! It does not say men are appointed to die once and then two judgments. No, it says “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

sovereigngrace said:

You are turning to apostate Judaism for support for your theory. That is very telling! This whole doctrine was foisted upon Christianity by apostate Judaism.

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All I am saying is, some people knew of a thousand years of peace way back then. Just so you know, the church would not exist if not for the Jews. Jesus was a Jew. What we read from Genesis to Malachi came from them.

Anyway, where else can one turn if people reject what the bible says in plain language - 6 different times?

sovereigngrace said:

Revelation 11:7 says (speaking during the third of seven parallel), describing the period of time in-between the testimony of the two witnesses and the coming of the Lord, "when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the abyss (or abussos) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

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At the end of the third recapitulation in Revelation

You can "parallel" and "recapitulate" all you want. Just know. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is going to be proven wrong. The truth is, events in a given chapter will certainly take place AFTER the events in a previous chapter and before events in a later chapter - no recaps. The exceptions to this is parentheses and some prophecy given by the elders that will happen later on in the book.

In other words, NO trumpet can sound at the same time any seal is opened.

No trumpet will sound until all 7 seals have been opened first. The trumpets are written inside the book.

NO vial can be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded.

11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Verse 1-2: just before (like 3.5 days before) the man of sin is to enter the temple, he must first arrive in Jerusalem. This is his arrival/

Verse3: the two witnesses suddenly show up from heaven at this time, because they man of sin just shows up. They know what he is about to do: enter the temple. From verse two on to the end (7th vial) the city will be trampled by Gentiles for the next 42 months - the last half of the week. It seems the man of sin arrived with Gentile troops who will trample the city. This is very much a part of John's very strict chronology.

Verses 4 -13 are written as a parenthesis. It takes the reader on a SIDE journey outside of John's chronology showing us what will happen to them later: first they must prophecy for 1260 days. They will be killed just 3.5 days before the end of the week, because they began just 3.5 days before the exact midpoint.

Verse 14: catching the reader up on where John is in TIME: the 3.5 days have passed since the man of sin arrived in Jerusalem and not he will enter the temple. The 7th trumpet will mark that time in heaven.

Verse 15: the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple and people SEE his abomination. It is the EXACT MIDPOINT - or the dividing point in the week, as proven by the 42 months and the 1260 days.

Note: verse 15 is NOT 42 months later, or 1260 days later: it is only 3.5 DAYS after the start of the 42 months and 1260 day countdowns to the end.

Verses 12:1-5 is another parenthesis and therefore OUTSIDE John's midpoint timing.

Verse 12:6 is perhaps two or three seconds after the man of sin has walked into the most holy place in the temple and people have SEEN this abomination. And the week has divided. Those in Judea that know to flee will start fleeing immediately and will be on their flight for the next 1260 days. It is another countdown to the end.

Note carefully: the first two countdowns: 42 months and 1260 days started just BEFORE the midpoint division. This 1260 days starts just AFTER the midpoint division.

Not pasted in, but in chapter 13, verse 5 or so, yet another 42 month countdown.

These 5 countdowns to the end prove that all three chapters, 11, 12, and 13 are MIDPOINT chapters. Most people ignore John's timing, imagining backpeddling, recapping, parallels, and other things when the only truth is, John wrote in a strict chronology, but wrote with parentheses.

Without a doubt, there is another parenthesis in chapter 13, probably starting right after John's mention of the 42 months: John taking the reader on another side journey showing us what the Beast and False Prophet will be doing as the last half of the week passes.

Chapter 14 is some unknown time after the midpoint, but still before the two Beasts have started enforcing the image and mark. Finally, in chapter 15, the beheaded will begin to show up on heaven.

The days of great tribulation (GT) that Jesus spoke of will not begin in Revelation until after God warns people not to take the mark.

Spiritual Jew said:

I agree, but let's talk about this if you don't mind. What do you believe is the age to come (the next age to come after this one)? Is it not the one where people will not get married and won't die? Isn't that a clear description of the new heavens and new earth rather than a temporal earthly millennial kingdom age?

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This is the church age. Except in Heaven. Jesus was talking about the church in Paradise currently, not some future age on earth. The church does not come back to earth until the New Jerusalem. Remember the church is not about earth, but about Paradise. Some 20 or 30 years on earth meant nothing to Jesus and the early church. Most would be killed, young, for hundreds of years for their beliefs any ways.

Jesus did not tell His audience that for the next 1990 years all who believed would have a miserable life and put to death, but hang in there. Or did He? The emphasis was life in heaven, where a day is like 1000 years. So a couple of days would be soon, no?

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't see pre-trib taught in scripture whatsoever, but we can respectfully agree to disagree on that and still discuss these things. Thanks for the response.

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Do you even see a tribulation at all?

Spiritual Jew said:

Okay, so you acknowledge that the word "thousand" is used figuratively in those verses (there are others as well).

In light of that, can you at least acknowledge the possibility that the word thousand could be used figuratively in Rev 20 as well? At least in the sense that there's no rule of some kind that says scripture can never use that word figuratively?

That means nothing. We have to figure out what it means in each case. In a book with so much figurative language as Revelation, we have to give it even more consideration.

Why did God not make the entire book of Revelation clearer by not having so much figurative language? Once you answer that then you'll have your answer to your question as well.

I agree. But, it also means that not everything He was saying was easy to discern. He was saying to wake up and pay close attention to what He said and open our spiritual ears. Very much like we should do when reading His parables.

Goodness gracious. Making excuses? For what? I have spent a lot of time thoroughly explaining how I understand the book and have shown scriptural evidence to back it up. How am I making excuses? Come on, man. Don't go there.

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I had written: "I really hope you are not making excuses.." I was thinking of you explaining how the book is filled with "figurative" or symbolic language. Again, I hope you don't think this gives one license to use human imagination to guess what each symbol means. I am sure your thinking is, we are to use scripture as much as possible to determine what a symbol is to represent.

Sadly, my experience on these threads is quite the opposite. I find human imagination gives people different ideas for the symbols.

Here is your list: "seven lampstands, seven stars, a sharp, double edged sword coming out of Christ's mouth, Satan's throne, a Lamb, golden bowls full of incense filled with prayers, a pale horse whose rider is Death, locusts, scorpions, seven thunders, two olive trees and lampstands, a woman clothed with the sun, a beast with seven heads and ten horns, a dragon with seven heads and ten horns, a second beast with two horns"

seven lampstands the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

seven stars The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches

a sharp, double edged sword coming out of Christ's mouth
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Satan's throne I'm lost here.

a Lamb
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

golden bowls full of incense filled with prayers This specifies prayers - so no need to doubt the meaning. God certainly hears our prayers. Not one prayer prayed in faith is ever not heard. This is confirmation.

a pale horse whose rider is Death Here God leaves room for wondering: are these horses REAL horses with riders, or are they only symbolic of something else and are only to represent something else. I choose symbolic. There is no need to wonder about this horse and rider either, and what he is to represent:

Matthew 24: For nation shall rise against nation [the red horse: wars] , and kingdom against kingdom [the red horse: wars]: and there shall be famines, [the black horse, hunger] and pestilences [the pale horse: death - example: the black plague], and earthquakes, in divers places.

locusts, scorpions What do we know about locusts? One thing, they come in great hoards. What do we know of scorpions? We know from others that their sting is very painful. Therefore we can easily understand why this is a "woe." These stinging beasties are meant by God to TORTURE all those who have rejected the Son and His gospel.

seven thunders We are told that it is not for us to know. So we acknowledge they will sound, but we can ignore their meaning - not for us.

two olive trees and lampstands
Zec. 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

a woman clothed with the sun Not difficult, if you have planetarium software. At a certain time every month, the sun covers Virgo with sunlight, as if clothing her. But far more rare is when the moon is at her feet at the same time. This exact picture happened around Sept. 1 (if I remember right) on 2 BC. I looked every month from 10 BC to 10 AD. Only once in those 20 years did the moon end up at her feet while she was clothed with the sun (the sun at her shoulders). This is a symbol showing the birth of Jesus Christ. AGain, no reason to use human imagination. These first five verses are written as a parenthesis and so OUTSIDE John's chronology (which is at the exact midpoint of the week). They are about how the Dragon used King Herod to attempt to kill Jesus as a young child.

a beast with seven heads and ten horns Again, no reason to not try and understand. In Rev. 17 we find that the heads are kings with kingdoms. Horns are kings. People wonder about the deadly wound, imagining it is on the Beast. NO! It is on one (1) of the heads. It is one king with a kingdom that received a deadly wound. Considering the image of Dan. 2, we can pretty well guess that one of the seven heads is going to be Babylon, which is today Iraq. Did a "king" of Iraq just receive a deadly wound a few years ago?

a dragon with seven heads and ten horns No need to wonder: John tells us the Dragon is Satan himself. The seven heads are seven kings, each with an empire or kingdom. Without a doubt, it is the SAME seven heads.

a second beast with two horns Again we are told that this is the False Prophet. I have no insight on his two horns.

Question: do you think God expects us to understand this book?

Spiritual Jew said:

Okay, so you acknowledge that the word "thousand" is used figuratively in those verses (there are others as well).

In light of that, can you at least acknowledge the possibility that the word thousand could be used figuratively in Rev 20 as well? At least in the sense that there's no rule of some kind that says scripture can never use that word figuratively?

That means nothing. We have to figure out what it means in each case. In a book with so much figurative language as Revelation, we have to give it even more consideration.

Why did God not make the entire book of Revelation clearer by not having so much figurative language? Once you answer that then you'll have your answer to your question as well.

I agree. But, it also means that not everything He was saying was easy to discern. He was saying to wake up and pay close attention to what He said and open our spiritual ears. Very much like we should do when reading His parables.

Goodness gracious. Making excuses? For what? I have spent a lot of time thoroughly explaining how I understand the book and have shown scriptural evidence to back it up. How am I making excuses? Come on, man. Don't go there.

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n light of that, can you at least acknowledge the possibility that the word thousand could be used figuratively in Rev 20 as well? At least in the sense that there's no rule of some kind that says scripture can never use that word figuratively?
Since in previous verses it has been used as a real number and as a figurative number, so one could come to a reasonable conclusion that it could be used either way here. But in every case, we decide which it is by the CONTEXT. So when I examine the context with NO preconceptions, first I see "thousand years," and next I see THE thousand years. That tells me that the second mention is referring right back to the first mention - as if it were a real thousand.

How has John used this word in his book previous to this chapter?
Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

I find in EVERY CASE John has used "thousand" as a real number.

I can find no honest reason to imagine or assume that John's intent was a symbolic number. Three times He included "the" in front of the thousand, pointing to a specific thousand.

Spiritual Jew said:

...

That means nothing. We have to figure out what it means in each case. In a book with so much figurative language as Revelation, we have to give it even more consideration.

Why did God not make the entire book of Revelation clearer by not having so much figurative language? Once you answer that then you'll have your answer to your question as well.

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I agree. We must determine by the context of these verses. When I consider that John used "thousand" many times in his book previous to this and none of them symbolic, I personally choose a real number.

We can ask God why. Again, I will ask, do you think God expects us to understand this book? From elsewhere in the bible, I am convinced He does.

We cannot make excuses saying it is symbolic so I can't understand.

iamlamad said:

All I am saying is, some people knew of a thousand years of peace way back then. Just so you know, the church would not exist if not for the Jews. Jesus was a Jew. What we read from Genesis to Malachi came from them.

Anyway, where else can one turn if people reject what the bible says in plain language - 6 different times?

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It belonged among the apostate jews. They then attempted to foist it upon the early Church by Cerenthius the Judaizer.

Spiritual Jew said:

Answering a question with a question. That isn't much fun.

Can you answer my question first? Are 5000 days any different than a day to God? I'm trying to show it's not accurate to think that a day equals exactly 1000 years to God, so that's why I'm asking that question.

Except for Satan being defeated in similar ways two different times, I guess. Not sure why that would be necessary. Why would he deserve a second chance?

A private interpretation is one that only you, or very few, people have. That is not the case with seeing recapitulations or parallels in the book of Revelation. Many people see it that way.

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What does 5000 days have to do with 1000 years? The topic is 1 day equating to God the same as 1000 years. If you are trying to split that day down into 1000 parts, that would be equality. As pointed out, God views this reality as 8 days. Nothing more can be said. All 8000 years to us are equally important to God, whether or not, He sees this reality as 8 days or 8000 years.

Satan has been defeated trillions of times. He has nothing better to do than to keep trying, evidently. That is insanity, thinking that one time it will work in his favor.

If a private interpretation is accepted by 1 billion people, it is no less a private interpretation, than one only accepted by 1 person. No one can claim they know, without colliding with others making the same claim. All interpretations are private. Being made public, does not change a private interpretation. One who only uses God's Word is not adding their interpretation. The issue is no two people see the same thing in a verse, especially the more verses are involved. Most people do not think about interpretation. They accept what others say, so they themselves do not have to be responsible, but blame the one holding the interpretation.

iamlamad said:

n light of that, can you at least acknowledge the possibility that the word thousand could be used figuratively in Rev 20 as well? At least in the sense that there's no rule of some kind that says scripture can never use that word figuratively?
Since in previous verses it has been used as a real number and as a figurative number, so one could come to a reasonable conclusion that it could be used either way here. But in every case, we decide which it is by the CONTEXT. So when I examine the context with NO preconceptions, first I see "thousand years," and next I see THE thousand years. That tells me that the second mention is referring right back to the first mention - as if it were a real thousand.

How has John used this word in his book previous to this chapter?
Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

I find in EVERY CASE John has used "thousand" as a real number.

I can find no honest reason to imagine or assume that John's intent was a symbolic number. Three times He included "the" in front of the thousand, pointing to a specific thousand.

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In each case there is a number to denote amount.

Spiritual Jew said:

Let me make something very clear here. I have never called pretrib or whatever you believe (it's hard to tell sometimes) a cult. As far as I know, you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and believe He rose from the dead. So, I believe you are a Christian in that case. But, I also believe you are mistaken in your understanding of end times doctrine.

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I would never say that.

I was pointing out you were on the brink of calling Amil a cult.

Spiritual Jew said:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus seemed to only know of 2 ages. The one where people get married and die and the one where people will no longer get married or die. No mention of a church age there. How do you reconcile that with your pre-trib view?

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There are other passages that refer to another "age."
28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

SovereignGrace has made a point: why did God not give us more on an entire 1000 years, if it is as premil says it will be? Such a question can only be answered when we arrive in heaven where will will know as we have been known.

Question: is eternity an "age?"

It is sure, because He said it: once someone has be changed into a resurrection body, they will no longer marry or be given in marriage. But Revelation seems to show us many who will be alive after the 70th week that will not be changed into a resurrection body.

Here are some verses that fit "hand in glove" so to speak with Revelation:

Zeh. 14:
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. When? Probably the battle of Armageddon, Rev. 19

4 And his feet shall stand in that day [probably the day of Armageddon] upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye [ye WHO? Without a doubt, JEWS in natural bodies] shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. [the same 24 hour day?] [Are these the living waters of Ezekiel, water too deep to cross?]

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. [WHERE is He king? On earth - THIS earth, not the new one.]

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. [There will be physical changes to the landscape.]

11 And men shall dwell in it [in Jerusalem - natural men?], and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. [it really sounds like natural men.]

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. [back to Armageddon.]

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
[Armageddon]
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. [Armageddon]

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
[Armageddon]
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left [natural people] of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.[This pretty much proves natural people. Resurrected people follow God's will.]

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. [This pretty much proves natural people. Resurrected people follow God's will.]

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

How do you reconcile that with your a-mill view? It sounds very much like the 1000 year reign. It follows Rev. But gives different information.

sovereigngrace said:

In each case there is a number to denote amount.

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And with no number, it is just "a" thousand or just "thousand." That can most certainly be taken as a literal thousand. In three cases John wrote THE thousand.

DavidPT said:

Premils need to go outside of the book of Revelation in order to find events matching this thousand year time period. But, if this thousand year time period occurs in this age, as Amil has proposed, that should mean that in the previous 19 chapters, there should be some passages somewhere focusing on this thousand years, where martyred saints are ruling in heaven a thousand years with Christ, being priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection. So where is a second witness to that anywhere in Revelation prior to chapter 20? Or where is there even a second witness to this thousand year period anywhere in the first 19 chapters?

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First of all, there is no rule that says there has to be any previous reference to it. But, John did point out in Rev 1:5-6 that believers were already priests of God and Christ at that time.

Rev 1
4 John,To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Do you agree with what John said here about Jesus Christ being the current "ruler of the kings of the earth"? Do you agree with what John said about believers long ago having been made "a kingdom and priests to serve His God and Father"?

There is another reference to the souls John saw here:

Rev 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

This is obviously before the second coming of Christ and talks about John seeing the souls of dead believers. I don't believe there's any reason to think these souls are any different than the ones he saw in the Rev 20 vision. They obviously had already died before the fifth seal is opened.

Do you believe that the souls John saw in Rev 20 include those who died before the 5th seal is opened? If not, then I believe this shows a hole in your view of Rev 20 and that you need to reconsider who exactly it was that John saw in terms of the timing of their deaths.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Verse 6 says---Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Does the 'he' include the martyrs in verse 4? Of course it does. That has to mean, assuming Amil, the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, blessed and holy are these martyrs. On these martyrs the second death hath no power, but these martyrs shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


I'm not suggesting that what is recorded in verse 6 is only meaning in regards to these martyrs and no one else.

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Oh, so you don't take it completely literally then (to only be speaking of those John specifically mentions and no one else)? How interesting. You're doing the very thing that premils constantly criticize amils for, which is not taking the text literally for what it says without adding anything to it. Very interesting.

I'm suggesting that everything recorded in verse 6 has to apply to the martyrs as well, which includes being priests of God and of Christ, which makes zero sense after they are already dead, but before they are bodily raised. That raises a major red flag to reject Amil on that alone.

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Thank you for acknowledging that.

And since I'm not Catholic, but can see maybe Catholics believing in saints performing priestly duties while in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection, why would non Catholics also think it is reasonable to apply that part to departed saints while they are awaiting a bodily resurrection?

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Their status as kings and priests of God has nothing to do with performing priestly duties in heaven. It has to do with their status in relation to Christ. They are considered to be in His kingdom and His priests. I don't honestly know what the souls of the dead in Christ do while they're up there, but that's irrelevant.

We are kings and priests of God now. Did you know that? Does that mean we perform priestly duties the way you would normally think of that? No. It has to do with our spiritual position of being in Christ's kingdom.

And one final thing for now. Premils typically argue from a position of chronology. Not just meaning ch 19 and 20, but meaning in general, meaning when it involves prophetic events. But as to Amil, sometimes chronology appears to be relevant to them, sometimes it doesn't. And strangely enough, the times it seems to be irrelevant to them, are the times when the chronology appears to support Premil.

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What in the world are you even saying here? No one can reasonably argue that Revelation is in chronological order from beginning to end. Wouldn't you agree? The most obvious case where it's not chronological is Rev 11 and 12. So, we all need to discern when it's chronological and when it's not. You're acting as if assuming most of it is chronological is the correct approach. How do you figure?

Even trying to say that it's all chronological except for the parenthetical sections, how can that even be true? Rev 11:15-18 indicates that the time of the destruction of the wicked, the resurrection of the dead and their judgment occurs at the seventh trumpet. And then we see a depiction of those events again in Rev 20:9-15. Does no time go by between Rev 11:15-18 and Rev 20:9-15? I'm sorry, but your argument here just does not make any sense.

iamlamad said:

And with no number, it is just "a" thousand or just "thousand." That can most certainly be taken as a literal thousand. In three cases John wrote THE thousand.

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Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?